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Old 6th June 2011, 00:19   #7941  |  Link
e-t172
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, the "colors.ytp" is supposed to show slight edges between all those cubes. Please don't look for the cube edges. What you should look for is any kind of "movement" in the picture. If you get the impression that anything in the image is moving, then the dither strength is too low. The "colors.ytp" should only change colors, there should be no visible movement. Try disabling dithering completely as a test. Then you'll see what kind of movement I mean.
My tests show that the smallramp.ytp test is the best to detect these "movements" (noise). They become obvious near the dark end of the ramp. It is also useful to detect banding, so it is easier to set the balance between dithering and potential banding.

It seems the old TN panel in my PC monitor isn't so bad after all, since noise is clearly visible as soon as I switch to 7-bit.

Last edited by e-t172; 6th June 2011 at 00:24.
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Old 6th June 2011, 00:22   #7942  |  Link
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Thx for the new version.

I had a few bugs disappear since i upgraded to 0.62. They were not in the changelog thou. Am I correct in assuming that not every optimization and bugfix to existing feateres is in the changelog but only actual changes like new feateres and options?

Also are there any optimizations I can make to the new display properties settings in madvr? I do not know the calibration or bitdepth of my tv thou I have looked throu any documentation I could find.
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Old 6th June 2011, 00:24   #7943  |  Link
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No problem with this new version for now. I can't say if something was improved. I'm just able to detect things like tearing, or major frame drops (and there are none).

But now, I can clearly say that I'm totally lost with all these options (no problem if it helps others). I'll stay with default settings.
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Old 6th June 2011, 02:24   #7944  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Carpo View Post
Either its me seeing things, wanting to believe, tripping out, or migrain meds kicking in, but batman begins and the dark night look different on my TV with new madVR, colours look better
I see it, too. Immediately noticed flesh tones looked more natural and then watched the scene where Bruce is climbing the mountain to meet with Raz Algul (sp?) and the League of Shadows and the landscape's muted colors still looked muted (as they should), but colors on certain objects, such as clothing and most notably the "blue flower" really pop.
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Old 6th June 2011, 02:42   #7945  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
No, not yet. I will remove the 9bit and 10bit options in the next build, they make currently no sense.
Why don't you correct the bug on the other side?

But seriously... Do you have any incompatibility problems or theoretical technical concerns (*) with the 10-bit output? Or why does it has so low priority in your list? (I would guess I won't see it in this year.)

* I have one. I think no VGA can output real 10-bit through HDMI but DisplayPort only, and the measured 10-bit precision with the new Redeons is the same thing what you can measure with single link DVI -> dithering (after the VGA LUT).
At least I never heard about anybody who use (or even successfully tested) 10-bit output with MPC-HC and a Geforce card through HDMI connection. But I am not sure because Fermi theoretically supports DeepColor on paper, so...
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Old 6th June 2011, 05:52   #7946  |  Link
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How have you tested? My 5770 outputs 10-bit RGB via HDMI and the GTX460, 12-bit, according to my display (reported as 30 and 36-bit), but I have no way to tell if there's a practical advantage at all, or if madVR can take advantage of it. I'm thinking I'm gonna test madVR's 10-bit output, and if it gives me more banding than 8-bit (due to less dither, 1/4 if I understood what madshi said above and I'm not mistaken), then I guess it's not real 10-bit.
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Old 6th June 2011, 07:18   #7947  |  Link
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I need some clarifications on a couple things since I'm confused how the new setting dialog interacts with shaders, 3dluts, and yCMS.

Properties
primaries/gamut - Since it's very rare for any display without a hardware lut to have a perfect gamut, what should this be set to? To maintain accuracy without a 3dlut should I pick the closest option or 'Something Else'? What does madVR do (not do?) when 'Something Else' is selected? Does this setting do anything when using a 3DLUT?

gamma/transfer - I calibrate my gamma to an ambient light scaled REC.709 curve with Argyll CMS, and as I've learned this doesn't match how yCMS or Janos666's MPC-HC-mod calculates it, so I doubt it matched madVR shaders either... To maintain accuracy without a 3dlut should I pick the closest option or 'Something Else'? What does madVR do (not do?) when 'Something Else' is selected? Does this setting do anything when using a 3DLUT?

Calibration & Color & Gamma
Color & Gamma appears to be some sort of Output Gamma setting? So if you are doing gamma correction in a 3dlut with something like grayscale measurements & gamma_curve, or don't want any gamma correction at all, madVR is forcing you to change it? I don't want anything to touch the gamma I may or may not have specified in a 3dlut, so this is a major problem for me.

Bug: The Color & Gamma section should not be used by default when using a 3dlut. Gamma corrections should be done with the 3dlut (if needed) when one is used. Currently madVR uses shaders on-top for the 3dlut. An 'Native' gamma option is needed to disable madVR's gamma modifications when using a 3dlut.

Bug: When 'using yCMS' is selected, clicking edit in the yCMS tab doesn't load the template from the Color & Gamma sections. Same issue in both sections with the grayscale edit button.
Related question: Does madVR only accept yCMS settings separated by commas or can spaces be used like a normal yCMS config file?

Bug: Somehow the Calibration tab appeared in Color & Gamut section. Previously there was only a yCMS tab.

Bug: madVR shouldn't be creating 3dluts with Output_Transfer_Function set (currently always set to 1.0 0.0 0.45454545454545454545454545454545 0.0) since you are using yCMS presets. Do you have a reason for doing this? Will madVR misbehave is fed a 3dlut using the yCMS defaults for yRGB (no Output_Transfer_Function specified)?

Bug: madVR sets both input and output levels to RGB_Video (16-235) instead of RGB_PC (0-255). This will cause full-range videos to get clipped. Since you are using shaders for TV->PC conversion, madVR would need two luts (Video->Video & PC->PC) to workaround this issue and support full-range videos.

Feature Request: Option to have madVR create a 3DLUT with an external yCMS config file and set the lut as the external 3DLUT after creation.

Hopefully you add an option to disable all these forced gamma corrections in madVR 0.63. Until that happens, I guess I'm stuck using madVR 0.61. You've made things overly complex for something which should be very simple. I would like to see input settings grouped with their corresponding output settings, with an option to disable all this forced behavior and use defaults with identical behavior (taking yRGB into account) to versions prior to 0.62. Otherwise, you need to write some detailed documentation on what all these new settings do, and how they are related.
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Old 6th June 2011, 07:47   #7948  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
New major issue: I cannot seem to get 4:2:0 into madVR now. Upsampling is being applied before the video gets into it.

This is with either the latest ffdshow or LAV CUVID outputting YV12 or NV12.
For LAV CUVID its not technically possible to upsample chroma. It'll always deliver 4:2:0, it is not able to deliver anything else.

My guess is that what you're seeing is probably a side-effect of the scaling changes madshi did, resulting in smoother chroma even on nearest neighbour.
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Old 6th June 2011, 08:32   #7949  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
For LAV CUVID its not technically possible to upsample chroma. It'll always deliver 4:2:0, it is not able to deliver anything else.

My guess is that what you're seeing is probably a side-effect of the scaling changes madshi did, resulting in smoother chroma even on nearest neighbour.
There is definitely some kind of filtering going on, as I have chroma and luma both set to nearest neighbour. The decoder may not be the issue then, if LAV CUVID can only output 4:2:0.

It's my understanding that the new feature scales chroma to the luma resolution using your selected chroma algorithm, and then both are scaled to your display resolution using the selected luma algorithm.

MadVR 0.12 (went back to it to get a direct comparison when testing, but anything below 0.62 is the same)


MadVR 0.62:


This is with MadVR set to Nearest Neighbour on both.
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Old 6th June 2011, 08:47   #7950  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
madshi, I have 1080i59, 1080p23, and 1080p50 in that order, in the auto rate change options. When I play a 59/60p video, madVR switches to the 23p option. Is it supposed to work that way? I'd rather have it switch to 1080i59. I don't have 1080p59 in the options cause I'd rather have the 29.97 fps videos play at 1080i59, and if I have 1080p59 there, 1080i gets ignored in its favor.
No, that's not how it's supposed to be. What happens if you only put 1080i59 in the auto rate change option? Does madVR switch to 1080i59 then? I rather guess that for some reason switching to 1080i59 doesn't work. Not sure why. Maybe Windows itself doesn't like it. Are you sure that this mode actually exists in your GPU display mode list?
I tried again with 0.62 and it still happens. When I leave only 1080i59, then it simply doesn't switch to anything for 59/60p content (tried from 23p and 50p). Happens both with LAV splitter and the MPC internal splitter.

My card can do 59i, it does work OK for 29/30p or 59/60i content, just not for 59/60p. Also, 59i is my default setting so my PC is more often than not at that rate (named 29i or 30i in CCC). I tried quickly with the Interframe sample video here, but it also was happening with an interpolation avisynth script when madVR was being fed 60p.

Last edited by Andy o; 6th June 2011 at 08:50.
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Old 6th June 2011, 10:41   #7951  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
madVR now actually slightly beats out PDVD for those scenes for me. So, again, well done. That's pretty amazing since you weren't intending to "fix" anything!
Yes. Furthermore: This is just with the standard resamplers. Image quality should further improve when I implement some better quality upsamplers. (Not too soon, though.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
I'm using J. River's MC16 these days and when I hit stop MC16 crashes
Oh, this does look like a madVR problem, not an MC problem. Is this 100% reproducible?

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Originally Posted by DigitalLF View Post
post processing with FFDSHOW that way couldn't have been good for PQ, right?
I don't know, not sure how you configured ffdshow exactly. And no, I don't want to know...

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
New major issue: I cannot seem to get 4:2:0 into madVR now. Upsampling is being applied before the video gets into it.
Actually, the only problem is that "Nearest Neighbor" is broken. If you select "Nearest Neighbor", madVR accidently uses "Bilinear". Other than that there's nothing wrong.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Lumagen boxes do. (or at least did, when I was beta-testing the Radiance)
They do color correction in linear light. But they do not *scale* in linear light, AFAIK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
8-bit showed no movement, but 7-bit helped mask the edges a bit.
In that case I'd recommend staying with 8bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
I had a few bugs disappear since i upgraded to 0.62. They were not in the changelog thou. Am I correct in assuming that not every optimization and bugfix to existing feateres is in the changelog but only actual changes like new feateres and options?
Important bugfixes are listed in the changelog, too. There might be a couple small bugfixes which I don't list in the changelog. Also, some things might be fixed "accidentally". Anyway, if a problem is gone for you, there's really no reason to wonder why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
Also are there any optimizations I can make to the new display properties settings in madvr? I do not know the calibration or bitdepth of my tv thou I have looked throu any documentation I could find.
Just stick to the defaults if you don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
But now, I can clearly say that I'm totally lost with all these options (no problem if it helps others). I'll stay with default settings.
Yes, staying with the default settings is a good idea if you don't understand the new options. Maybe I should introduce an "expert" mode and hide some of these settings there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
Why don't you correct the bug on the other side?
Because a day has only 24 hours. And because adding 10bit output is not at the top of my priority list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Properties
primaries/gamut - Since it's very rare for any display without a hardware lut to have a perfect gamut, what should this be set to? To maintain accuracy without a 3dlut should I pick the closest option or 'Something Else'? What does madVR do (not do?) when 'Something Else' is selected? Does this setting do anything when using a 3DLUT?
If you use a 3dlut, the primaries/gamut setting on the "Properties" page has no effect. As I mentioned before, I plan to make gray out this option in the next madVR version, if you activate a 3dlut.

If you do not use a 3dlut, you should set this option to the closest match. The value "Something Else" means that madVR disables gamut correction, if no 3dlut is used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
gamma/transfer - I calibrate my gamma to an ambient light scaled REC.709 curve with Argyll CMS, and as I've learned this doesn't match how yCMS or Janos666's MPC-HC-mod calculates it, so I doubt it matched madVR shaders either... To maintain accuracy without a 3dlut should I pick the closest option or 'Something Else'? What does madVR do (not do?) when 'Something Else' is selected? Does this setting do anything when using a 3DLUT?
Same as with "primaries/gamut". Setting this to "Something Else" means that madVR treats your display as having the default Pure power curve of 2.2, though. This has no meaning, though, unless you modify the "Color & Gamma" settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Calibration & Color & Gamma
Color & Gamma appears to be some sort of Output Gamma setting? So if you are doing gamma correction in a 3dlut with something like grayscale measurements & gamma_curve, or don't want any gamma correction at all, madVR is forcing you to change it? I don't want anything to touch the gamma I may or may not have specified in a 3dlut, so this is a major problem for me.
If you keep all options to the default values madVR will not touch the gamma at all. That's the default behaviour. If you enable yCMS calibration (or use an external 3dlut file), madVR will still not touch the gamma at all, if you keep using the default settings on the "properties" and "color & gamma" pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Bug: The Color & Gamma section should not be used by default when using a 3dlut. Gamma corrections should be done with the 3dlut (if needed) when one is used. Currently madVR uses shaders on-top for the 3dlut. An 'Native' gamma option is needed to disable madVR's gamma modifications when using a 3dlut.
Let's say you want to use a 2.35 gamma for night time watching and a 2.2 gamma if there's some ambient light. How can you do that? With older madVR versions you had to create and then switch between different 3dlut files for that to work. Now with madVR v0.62 you create only one 3dlut file and you can do gamma adjustments on the fly. And you can do this with the same (or even better) quality than before.

The one standard 3dlut file created by madVR v0.62 defaults to a "Gamma_Curve" of a 2.2 pure power curve, which is also the default setting in the "color & gamma" settings page. If you want to achieve a different gamma curve, you can realize that by changing the "color & gamma" settings. Having the "color & gamma" settings set to the default values means that madVR is not doing any gamma processing at all.

Or in other words: v0.62 uses the 3dlut only to correct display faults. It does not use the 3dlut, anymore, to achieve specific gamma curves / values. So basically the yCMS command "Gamma_Curve" is what you can configure now in the "color & gamut" madVR settings page. This is done via shader math now, though. The purpose of this change is higher usability, because you only need one 3dlut, anymore, and you can switch "Gamma_Curve" on the fly, without delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Bug: When 'using yCMS' is selected, clicking edit in the yCMS tab doesn't load the template from the Color & Gamma sections. Same issue in both sections with the grayscale edit button.
The real bug is that the yCMS tab is visible sometimes when it should not be. It should only be visible if you've selected the "calibration" tab. The yCMS tab should not be visible in any other case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Related question: Does madVR only accept yCMS settings separated by commas or can spaces be used like a normal yCMS config file?
If you edit it manually, you have to use commas. However, you can copy & paste the full "Gamma_Measurements" and "Grayscale_Measurements" sections from your 3dlut script to the madVR settings gamut/gamma sections and madVR will accept them as they are (with spaces). But for that to work, the "xxx_Measurements" header must be part of the copy & pasted text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Bug: madVR shouldn't be creating 3dluts with Output_Transfer_Function set (currently always set to 1.0 0.0 0.45454545454545454545454545454545 0.0) since you are using yCMS presets. Do you have a reason for doing this? Will madVR misbehave is fed a 3dlut using the yCMS defaults for yRGB (no Output_Transfer_Function specified)?
I wasn't sure which output transfer function yCMS was using for yRGB, so I defined it, just to be safe. Since then yesgrey confirmed that the default yRGB output transfer function matches the one I manually defined. So I can remove that, but it won't make any practical difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Bug: madVR sets both input and output levels to RGB_Video (16-235) instead of RGB_PC (0-255). This will cause full-range videos to get clipped.
Are you sure? If that's true, I consider it a bug in yCMS. yCMS should not clip BTB/WTW, so it should also not clip full-range videos. That said, full-range videos are extremely rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Feature Request: Option to have madVR create a 3DLUT with an external yCMS config file and set the lut as the external 3DLUT after creation.
What extra options in the yCMS config file do you need? I think most users won't need this. So those few who do can create the 3dlut manually and use the "use external" option in madVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Hopefully you add an option to disable all these forced gamma corrections in madVR 0.63.
As explained above, with the default settings there is no forced gamma correction at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
You've made things overly complex for something which should be very simple. I would like to see input settings grouped with their corresponding output settings, with an option to disable all this forced behavior and use defaults with identical behavior (taking yRGB into account) to versions prior to 0.62.
The problem is that there are various situations users can be in:

(1) They might have a meter and want to use yCMS.
(2) They might have a meter and use a different 3dlut creator.
(3) They might have no meter, but have their displays calibrated by an ISF calibrator to e.g. BT.709.
(4) They might have a display which is known to be mostly BT.709 calibrated out of the box.
(5) They might have a display with an unknown calibration.

I need to support all of that. And I want to offer all of these users the option to use both gamut correction (so both DVDs and Blu-Rays are shown with correct colors) and gamma adjustments (to match the ambient light level, or to match movies with a weird encoding).

If I would only have to take care of one of those 5 groups mentioned above, the settings dialog would be easier. But I don't really feel like creating 5 different versions of the settings dialog, either. So I have to find a solution which works for everyone. Of course it's going to be somewhat complicated. So help me optimize it. I'm open for suggestions.

My logic behind all this is that there are some settings which should be setup once and then never touched again ("properties" and "calibration") and there are other settings which users may want to tweak depending on ambient light level or movie ("color & gamma"). I think these settings should be separated into different tabs. Because of that I cannot put "input and output settings" into one tab, as you suggest.
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Old 6th June 2011, 11:26   #7952  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
I tried again with 0.62 and it still happens. When I leave only 1080i59, then it simply doesn't switch to anything for 59/60p content (tried from 23p and 50p). Happens both with LAV splitter and the MPC internal splitter.
Can I have a log, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
My card can do 59i, it does work OK for 29/30p or 59/60i content, just not for 59/60p. Also, 59i is my default setting so my PC is more often than not at that rate (named 29i or 30i in CCC).
Maybe things are going wrong because of "59i" vs "29i". It's really the same thing, but maybe there's a misunderstanding between madVR and Windows because of that.
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Old 6th June 2011, 11:31   #7953  |  Link
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I'll get you a log in a few mins. I'm not sure I explained myself very clearly so just to clear it up, madVR does change to 1080i59 when using 29/30p or 59/60i. So, madVR can tell Windows to switch just fine, it just doesn't seem to know to do it when getting 59/60p. And for some reason it switches to 24p if the 1080p24 option is also set.
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Old 6th June 2011, 11:46   #7954  |  Link
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OK here's the log. My refresh rate was at 50Hz, and when playing that interframe 60p sample, it switched to 1080p24, instead of 1080i59.

http://www.filesonic.com/file/114155...log_50to24.zip
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:13   #7955  |  Link
madshi
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Wow, this is really a logic error in madVR, will fix that for the next build.
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:19   #7956  |  Link
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Thanks.
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:24   #7957  |  Link
madshi
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Don't understand, though, why madVR does not switch to 1080i59 for you, if that's the *only* mode you're listing in the madVR option. That *must* work. Can you really reproduce that? If so, please create a log for that situation, too. Thx.
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:44   #7958  |  Link
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Is it intended that all the options under devices->Mymonitor (display calibration, gamma, levels, etc.) affect RGB32 video as they do now? If so, what's the reason behind this behaviour? What should I do to get untouched RGB32 output?

BTW, congrats on finally making your renderer a video renderer, instead of a YV12 renderer
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That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 6th June 2011, 12:52   #7959  |  Link
Andy o
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OK, here's the log for that situation. madVR just doesn't switch.

http://www.filesonic.com/file/114189...adVR_-_log.zip

BTW, it's not a huge problem personally cause I don't have a lot of 60p content.

Also, since you're tweaking the logic, is it possible for madVR, if 1080i59/60 and 1080p59/60 both are present, to switch 59i/60i content to 1080i instead of 1080p? My display will only apply auto IVTC up to 1080i.
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Old 6th June 2011, 14:12   #7960  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually, the only problem is that "Nearest Neighbor" is broken. If you select "Nearest Neighbor", madVR accidently uses "Bilinear". Other than that there's nothing wrong.
Thanks, when looking back on those images, I wondered if that might have been what was going on. (as it was happening to luma too)

It does make me want to wait until this is fixed, to verify that the Cyberlink DVD Decoder is still sending YV12/NV12 before spending a lot of time on it. (neither ffdshow nor LAV CUVID/splitter work with DVD)
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