Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10th September 2018, 18:57   #52361  |  Link
brazen1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 331
Fwiw, I don't experience what you have using 17.6. You can see my specs in my sig to compare that might help you. Everything I use is the latest available except GPU driver which is 385.28 although for testing I've tried many others and revert back to 385.28 because all newer drivers introduce specific bugs detrimental to my usage and yours too if you cared. Also try ALT + F4 when closing player instead of letting player auto close (if you are using the setting). Also do exactly the opposite DSPlayer recommends, set KODI to 'use fullscreen' and madVR to use FSE. Problem solved I think. Sounding like others are having issues with 17.6 so v.18 would be out of the question for you guys to test if 17.6 isn't even working correctly for your setups. Maybe others will step up also. Really seeking tester(s) for my description if you are non-problematic with 17.6.
__________________
HOW TO-Kodi 2D-3D-UHD (4k) HDR Guide Internal & External Players
W11 Pro 24H2 GTX960-4GB RGB 4:4:4 @Matched Refresh Rates 8,10,12bit
KODI 22 MPC-HC/BE 82" Q90R Denon S720W

Last edited by brazen1; 10th September 2018 at 19:03.
brazen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2018, 19:46   #52362  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpainlesskodi View Post
Odd, my Receiver is reporting 8bit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I'll double check later today and I'll report back.
I have no idea why it seemed to work when I tested briefly last night. Although the levels are definitely fixed, the custom res doesn't seem to stick, even after it's been manually enabled. Even when you select 23p manually, the custom res (incorrectly labelled 24p) isn't selected automatically by MadVR anymore. So I do get 12bits, but with the crappy default nVidia refresh rate.

I'm not going to fiddle with drivers every time I reboot, so I'm back to 385.28.
__________________
Win11 Pro x64 b23H2
Ryzen 5950X@4.5Ghz 32Gb@3600 Zotac 3090 24Gb 551.33
madVR/LAV/jRiver/MyMovies/CMC
Denon X8500HA>HD Fury VRRoom>TCL 55C805K
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2018, 20:09   #52363  |  Link
tij
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this is not an osd bug.

the desktop still runs at 60 Hz while the GPU runs at 24 hz.

I am having same problem with this composition rate (not sure when it started … definitely on Windows 1709 never noticed it … noticed it only after 1803).

Was running Win10 1803 (build 17134.254) and GF1070 with 399.07 when noticed the problem. Since then tried 391.35 397.93 398.98 (drivers for which I recall it used to work correctly), but all exhibit same problem (trying to download latest 399.24 now)

So here is summary (both HD and SD material):

FSE: display 29.79, composition 60, D3D11 (10bit)
Fullscreen Windowed: display 29.79, composition 29.8, D3D (8bit)

Reason I start investigating it cause could not get Fullscreen Windowed to output 10 bit (actually if OS HDR is turn on … Fullscreen Windowed does output 10bit … but 3D with OS HDR flickers at low rate … unwatchable)

Using LG OLED E6 that does not show refresh rate … but can guess its probably receiving stated display rate (3D stuff in FSE also shows composition rate of 60, but 3D works … this implies GPU sending 23 to TV … otherwise, TV wont switch to 3D mode since there is no standard that defines 3D at 60 rate)

Also rendering times goes up by around 4ms when in FSE with that weird 60 composite rate (for both 2D and 3D … HD and SD)

I don't think OSD report is wrong too … can move mouse and see cursor but MadVR is still in FSE (bringing play control does drop MadVR to Fullscreen Window though)

What worries me is … Windows 1803 somehow hijack MadVR (reimplemented its api?) … so MadVR writes 23.97 to DWM (desktop window manager) instead of directly to screen … DWM process it at 60 and then outputs to screen at 23.97 … certainly would explain seeing cursor on FSE screen, unless I misunderstand FSE definition completely
tij is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2018, 20:39   #52364  |  Link
tij
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9
I am wrong … setting mouse cursor to have trail … and the mouse disappears from FSE … so Windows cannot draw anything on MadVR FSE … at least exclusive is still exclusive

still wonder if MadVR directly send frames to display … or have to pass through that 60fps composition desktop that somehow honors exclusivity mode (ie does not draw anything on FSE and does not allow other apps to do so too)

or maybe in 1709 DWM was temporary suspended when in FSE (so no composition rate can be reported in OSD) … and in 1803 DWM still runs in background (and hopefully allows app that requested FSE to directly write to display)
tij is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2018, 22:07   #52365  |  Link
thighhighs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by tij View Post
Also rendering times goes up by around 4ms when in FSE with that weird 60 composite rate (for both 2D and 3D … HD and SD)
Compared to windowed mode? Currently windowed mode show wrong and useless OSD, because it broken (by windows update).
Dont care match about FSE if it work fine. Also i hope new madvr build comes soon and 10bit back again for windowed mode.
thighhighs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 04:07   #52366  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 896
I've tried the latest HDR convert/process test build and it is awesome on my plasma.
Previously I had to make a choice between natural skin tones and good highlights and saturated colours and now I can enjoy both.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 22H2, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters/ReClock/madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400 oc'd, GeForce 1050 Ti 536.40
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 07:03   #52367  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I have no idea why it seemed to work when I tested briefly last night. Although the levels are definitely fixed, the custom res doesn't seem to stick, even after it's been manually enabled. Even when you select 23p manually, the custom res (incorrectly labelled 24p) isn't selected automatically by MadVR anymore. So I do get 12bits, but with the crappy default nVidia refresh rate.

I'm not going to fiddle with drivers every time I reboot, so I'm back to 385.28.
Yeah, way to go Nvidia!

Mine is exactly as you described, but, even though the custom refresh is not ticked in the NVCP, using Kodi Dsplayer to do the refresh switching it somehow manages to select it, so I have one drop frame every 1.2 days, but at 8bit.

Maybe one day....

Update: 399.24 is out, but still unable to select custom @ 12bit, but, performance has improved a fair amount, on my set up at least.

Branch Info:
399.07 WHQL: r396_00-312
399.24 WHQL: r399_07-8
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 11th September 2018 at 13:12. Reason: typo
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 07:06   #52368  |  Link
oldpainlesskodi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 366
@ el Filou - yes, it is very very good....fingers crossed Madshi adds his new detail recovery/sharpening algo selectable for all sources, as I think he has hinted at.
__________________
LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema
oldpainlesskodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 08:15   #52369  |  Link
Axelpowa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 16
Hi!

I have a doubt about how to downscale UHD the best way.

I run a JVC X7500, but the eshift feature softens the picture a lot, so I decided to set the desktop to 1080p and disable the eshift.

This way and with filters(image enhancements) in madvr I get more sharpness.

The doubt is, is it normal to have to use DXVA for downscaling in madvr? Its the only way, otherwise I get huge rendering times with any other algorithm (jinc, lanzcos, etc....)

My gpu is a gtx1080.

Regards!

Last edited by Axelpowa; 11th September 2018 at 09:02.
Axelpowa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 09:29   #52370  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
check your GPU power setting and make sure it is not set to optimal.

after you did that can you make a screen of the OSD?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 13:06   #52371  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
I recently upgraded from a 1050 to a 1080 Ti and I started to see some weird performance in the rendering statistics. No matter what settings I choose, max rendering times always seem to spike at times up to 50ms+, but without affecting average times or dropping frames. GPU queue does seem to jump up and down more often than I expected, but setting it at 16 and presentation frames at 8 prevents any kind of impact from that. Also, if I turn on smooth motion, I almost always get consistent presentation glitches every minute or so, again no matter what settings I choose. I know that my GPU is barely using 60% at these times, so I don't understand all this activity. I'm on Windows 10 1803 4K23p with the latest nvidia drivers going through a Denon x3400h to LG OLED B7. One other piece of strange behavior with both nvidia cards is that I can only get 23.980hz presentation at 4K, while 1080p can get a perfect 23.976hz, and no amount of measuring changes this. Does anyone with a 1080 Ti see this type of behavior?
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 16:01   #52372  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I recently upgraded from a 1050 to a 1080 Ti
did you definitely create a CRU in madvr for 2160p?
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 16:29   #52373  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
I did, I initially tested it with the 1050 and gave up on it after I realized it could only do 8-bit. The numbers it computed were good, I setup a custom resolution manually with those numbers, but it always stuck to a 23.980hz composition rate (~4 min for repeated frames) at only 4k. I didn't have to do anything for 1080p since nvidia actually uses 23.976hz for that resolution.
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 16:58   #52374  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
Something isnt right there then, the 1050's can do 10bit, there have been some driver issues though getting 10bit in some situations, I dont know enough about NVIDIA cards though, in fact I didnt think NVIDIA fully supported 23,976 at any res, I knew there were improvements with later drivers but I'm sure you still had to create custom resolutions in MADVR to get decent timings compared to AMD cards.
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 17:20   #52375  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
No, nvidia can only do custom resolutions at 8-bit, but normal configs at 8/12-bit, which is what I use. They fixed timings for 1080p at 23.976hz a few drivers back, but did not fix 4k, leaving that still stuck at 23.980hz for me.
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 17:36   #52376  |  Link
iSeries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 625
There are some instructions some pages back on how to use MadVR to optimize timings, and then take those numbers and create a custom resolution with CRU. With the CRU-created custom res, you can switch between 8 bit and 12 bit. I did this and can confirm I can switch between bit depths. However, I can't for the life of me make MadVR switch to this custom res - MadVR switches to the native 23p res, which like you say is more like 23.980hz.

Another problem is even after creating the custom res with CRU, and then going into Nvidia control panel and switching to it and then switching to 12 bit, if you reboot and go back into the control panel, you'll see it has reverted back to 8 bit. Man, Nvidia drivers suck. Seriously thinking about switching to AMD (currently have 1050ti 4gb).

I am not sure why CRU can create a custom res that can switch between bit depths, but MadVR custom res cannot. I guess Madshi is the only one who could answer that one.
iSeries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 18:39   #52377  |  Link
Stereodude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Region 0
Posts: 1,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Its curious that people try to come up with new use-cases while we already had a Neural Network algorithm in madVR before, for image doubling: NNEDI3. Image scaling should be a breeze for the Tensor Cores, considering they are even using that as a gaming feature called DLSS - Deep Learning Super Sampling. Now their algorithm is not going to be quite as high quality as a madVR scaler might be, but it also needs to run on top of 3D rendering and whatnot, so it has to be ultra fast.

A new Neural Network based scaler with more complexity/quality then NNEDI3, but compensating for the low performance of the added complexity by using Tensor Cores sounds like a rather logical step.
madshi posted on AVSforum that NGU sharp is neural network based.
Quote:
This is actually very near to how madVR's "NGU Sharp" algorithm was designed: It tries to undo/revert a 4K -> 2K downscale in the best possible way. There's zero artificial sharpening going on. The algo is just looking at the 2K downscale and then tries to take a best guess at how the original 4K image might have looked like, by throwing lots and lots of GLOPS on the task. The core part of the whole algo is a neural network (AI) which was carefully trained to "guess" the original 4K image, given only the 2K image. The training of such a neural network works by feeding it with both the downscaled 2K and the original 4K image, and then the training automatically analyzes what the neural network does and how much its output differs from the original 4K image, and then applies small corrections to the neural network to get nearer to the ideal results. This training is done hundreds of thousands of times, over and over again.

Sadly, if a video wasn't actually downscaled from 4K -> 2K, but is actually a native 2K source, the algorithm doesn't produce as good results as otherwise, but it's usually still noticably better than conventional upscaling algorithms.
Stereodude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 19:03   #52378  |  Link
tij
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I did, I initially tested it with the 1050 and gave up on it after I realized it could only do 8-bit. The numbers it computed were good, I setup a custom resolution manually with those numbers, but it always stuck to a 23.980hz composition rate (~4 min for repeated frames) at only 4k. I didn't have to do anything for 1080p since nvidia actually uses 23.976hz for that resolution.
I have 1070 (with 2016 LG OLED E6) … it all used to work - 3D, 10bit, HDR … I think 1803 windows 10 update broke it (went back to known working NVIDIA drivers … but it still the same):

1. Fullscreen windowed D3D11 only outputs 8-bit (HDR and SDR)
2. FSE D3D11 outputs 10-bit (HDR and SDR) … but
3. Composition rate is now weird … 23.98Hz for windowed … 60Hz for FSE (which did not have composite rate before)
4. if you turn Windows HDR on … Fullscreen windowed D3D11 will outputs 10-bit … but that will make 3D unusable

However, display rate was 23.97 in all scenario.

Think 1803 made changes to Desktop Window Manager (DWM) … specifically how it behaves when some App start directly access screen through DXGI (intel and amd) or NVAPI (nvidea) … since madVR uses DXGI and NVAPI that pretty much guarantees (theoretically) that madVR directly accesses screen, so reported composite rate is irrelevant (my guess is DWM now leaves composition desktop active in background even though it is bypassed by DXGI and NVAPI … probably in order to go back to it as quickly as possible when needed)

This is all my best educational guess lol

So now I run my stuff all in FSE (used to run in Fulscreen Windowed for a bit faster response)
tij is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th September 2018, 19:36   #52379  |  Link
kostik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by tij View Post
I have 1070 (with 2016 LG OLED E6) … it all used to work - 3D, 10bit, HDR … I think 1803 windows 10 update broke it (went back to known working NVIDIA drivers … but it still the same):

1. Fullscreen windowed D3D11 only outputs 8-bit (HDR and SDR)
2. FSE D3D11 outputs 10-bit (HDR and SDR) … but

4. if you turn Windows HDR on … Fullscreen windowed D3D11 will outputs 10-bit … but that will make 3D unusable

However, display rate was 23.97 in all scenario.
I think madshi fixed some of the issues in his testing builds and will work when the final build is done.

Try this build for example:
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrRestoreDetails20.zip
kostik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2018, 07:27   #52380  |  Link
tij
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by kostik View Post
I think madshi fixed some of the issues in his testing builds and will work when the final build is done.

Try this build for example:
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrRestoreDetails20.zip
Thx ... great work by madshi as usual ... that fix 10bit output in fullscreen windowed for me

Also in OSD, additional info on display (bit depth, full range) is welcome.

Composition rate are still there in FSE, but i dont think madshi can do anything about it ... just the way Windows work now post 1803 (read somewhere that DX12 has no FSE at all now)
tij is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.