madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ibius]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

As far as I know there are no 24fps movies, I have never seen one anyway. Almost everything is 24/1.001 fps.

Of the top of my head, Yip Man (2008) is 24.000 fps, and I recently watched 5 to 7 (2014), also 24fps, there were others, can't remember now.

[Sparktank]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

As far as I know there are no 24fps movies, I have never seen one anyway. Almost everything is 24/1.001 fps.

There are.
Some regional blurays outside of North America and UK will sometimes transfers movies in 24fps.

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by Sparktank

There are.
Some regional blurays outside of North America and UK will sometimes transfers movies in 24fps.

Yep. Don't forget that 23.976 fps only really exists because of legacy reasons. Films are usually shot at 24 fps and some are transferred to BD like that.

[Sunspark]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

NP. Hope you ticked AR. I still think SR1 is a tad over the top with chroma and prefer to just notch up to 125 myself.

Honestly, I feel chroma Bicubic 60 AR paired with image Jinc AR is a good combination. The image doesn't get oversharpened, and the colour has a smoother almost creamier tonality to it.

A video test I believe that helps prove this is the first few seconds of the opening of the movie the Revenant. The entire movie is filmed in natural light. The bit where the boy is backlit by the flames, with bicubic 60 AR you see a soft red glow around him on the ground. With some of the other chroma algos this glow seems to be faded or less saturated.

[Sparktank]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Yep. Don't forget that 23.976 fps only really exists because of legacy reasons. Films are usually shot at 24 fps and some are transferred to BD like that.

I'm fully aware of that. I have been for a long time but it's good to let others know.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

On 720P anime which is already reasonably detailed these settings come across to me to be quite excessive and would likely be harming image quality considerably, debanding at maximum for 720P?
How bad are these videos?

The first thing you should be doing is viewing high bitrate videos, I keep mine on low, set a shortcut to change it if the source requires.

On 720P I usually just upscale with NNEDI3 (which doesn't make that much of a difference on a 1080 screen TBH) downscale with SSIM 1D without AB maybe do some reasonable SE and CE sharpening and that's it. Line thinning was kinda useful on some soft ~640x480 anime I had but it even at lower settings in some areas didn't produce good results which is why I asked madshi about adding warpsharpen to madvr which is considerably better for anime.



Link me a sample file that you feel your settings look good on and upload your settings.dat and I'll do a screenshotcomparison vs what I would use.
I might be able to make you reconsider what is considered good image quality.



Madshi, would it be possible to add to madVR the ability for it to remember settings for certain videos?

For example if I watch a video that has poor color and lots of banding and I hit a couple of hotkeys to change these defaults, could another hot key be pressed to remember those changes for any future videos played within that directory? That way if watching a series the user doesn't need to perform these adjustments again and again.

I actually like the smoothing effect that debanding on high has.

One observation though, for some anime* reducing ringing and reducing halos thingies can degrade seriously the gradients and the overall quality of the image.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Debanding as set there has nothing to do with the banding due to lack of dithering, in fact on high/high it would make it worse by blurring details that help disguise the banding caused by rounding down (instead of dithering) madVR's internal 16-bit data to 8-bit.

Are you watching close to a large low resolution display?



Debanding high/high? Thin edges 8.0? Sharpen edges 4.0? Dithering off?

I watch mostly anime and I would never use anything like that and strongly recommend no one use them unless testing for themselves. Definitely settings that should not be recommended generally.

Those settings give off a sensation of higher quality / resolution without adding color noise, or creating what I call false texturing.

The idea for anime is that some color portions are supposed to be smooth, not have a certain color noise texture. I want to erase that texture and be left with very smooth gradients on full color areas.

Dithering is a cause of [false texture]. It adds a texture that is not supposed to be there. And because madVR has a high bit depth, I am able to use no dithering, otherwise it would look really awful. Testing through many settings, for Dithering to work nicely on off, one has to select 10 bit in Devices -> Properties.

Then again, some people might expect color texture instead of smooth color gradient areas, and as such, might not fully like these settings.

Observation: Not all anime look their best on these settings, since some anime intentionally have a texture, that if erased, the entire thing looks awkward, this type of setting works best with most anime, not all.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by leeperry

Happy Happy Joy Joy then, what matters is that you like what you see coz at the end of the day the only thing that matters is your own satisfactshun.

All this said I have no idea how anyone can bear having any of the two dithering sub-options enabled so maybe you could try vanilla ED2 with both of these pesky things disabled as one makes the noise dance around on top of the picture and the other creates very faint color fringing

I will keep testing, It's a pretty nice hobby

One thing though, when testing all dithering features, I still can't escape the new texture created thingy (?)

I do wonder why we would need dithering at 10 or even 8 bit.

It's easily visible on what dithering brings to the table on less than 8 bit processing, but it's unclear on what the advantages are on more than 8 bit processing. If someone wants to post comparation images that can show a visible advantage, I'm very curious. When doing this, also have activated debanding on high, since that alleviates all other problems that ditehring was supposed to.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by Georgel

One observation though, for some anime* reducing ringing and reducing halos thingies can degrade seriously the gradients and the overall quality of the image.

If you're aware of limitations on certain content with reducing ringing please upload before and after screenshots or a sample, thanks. The halo reduction as stated in the options isn't recommended for anime.

[huhn]

it is not hard to show why dithering is needed.

dithering
no dithering

it is needed for correct color anyway.

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by huhn

it is needed for correct color anyway.

He's aware that he's destroying his image and he's okay with it

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

He's aware that he's destroying his image and he's okay with it

Originally Posted by huhn

it is not hard to show why dithering is needed.

dithering
no dithering

it is needed for correct color anyway.

Originally Posted by ryrynz

If you're aware of limitations on certain content with reducing ringing please upload before and after screenshots or a sample, thanks. The halo reduction as stated in the options isn't recommended for anime.

How do you get that image ?

But even so...

There is something going on on my side.

Just let me try one thing.

This is processed through all of my filters. Adding dithering will just add noise. but it's an exact frame, and can;t find the episode or the frame right now.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/zvj84qdbj8...a-120.png?dl=0

Click for full res I think?

The point is, it looks better than original, better than dithered, and has no visible problems, it's more high resolution and looks smooth.

EDIT ::: What I don't actually get is... It does erase some things... like smoothens things out... like, this would look kinda too smooth, or way too smooth for move materials, unnatural. but for anime, it's just so much cleaner and higher resolution looking... With anime, all that it erases are actually bits of noise? I don't know, when it erases something, what gets erased looks like it was not overly relevant.

[huhn]

the dithered image is "perfect" make sure it isn't scaled.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by huhn

the dithered image is "perfect" make sure it isn't scaled.

Oh.

Looking over the reasons why adding dither might have noise, my panel is 6 bit. Now this is messed up, but it's the most sold laptop high end display, and it has just 6 bits.

Maybe this is a reason why on my setup I see un-dithered images better? I mean, it would make sense for it to be otherwise, as far as common sense goes.

http://www.panelook.com/LP173WF4-SPF...iew_21056.html

Something seems wrong on my side honestly.

Well, many many people have this display, so the instructions are not entirely wrong, but curiosity is burning me on what is going on.

It just looks cleaner to me when deactivating dithering. On the display. Man, I can't wait to get my 100% adobeRGB AUO to escape this nonsense.

The more scary thing is that I too think that it should be the other way around, I do believe that dithering should make it better. It just does not work on my setup, adding a layer of visible noise

[Ver Greeneyes]

Originally Posted by Georgel

The more scary thing is that I too think that it should be the other way around, I do believe that dithering should make it better. It just does not work on my setup, adding a layer of visible noise

Dithering does add noise, it spreads the error out so on average pixels will have the right color. This is best seen on a video of a still image with "change dither for every frame" checked (and playback not paused). The result will be slightly more noisy, but the colors should be much more correct on average.

Since your panel is 6-bit (it may have its own high frequency dithering up to 8-bit, usually indicated with the acronym "FRC"), have you tried telling madVR this by settings its "native display bitdepth" to 6 bit in the devices section? 8 bit dithering should be almost imperceptible, so I expect that 6 bit dithering will be more noisy, not less - but 6 bit does match your display.

[Georgel]

Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes

Dithering does add noise, it spreads the error out so on average pixels will have the right color. This is best seen on a video of a still image with "change dither for every frame" checked (and playback not paused). The result will be slightly more noisy, but the colors should be much more correct on average.

Since your panel is 6-bit (it may have its own high frequency dithering up to 8-bit, usually indicated with the acronym "FRC"), have you tried telling madVR this by settings its "native display bitdepth" to 6 bit in the devices section? 8 bit dithering should be almost imperceptible, so I expect that 6 bit dithering will be more noisy, not less - but 6 bit does match your display.

I've been using 10 bit in display setup, since setting that to 6 bit seemed to affect the image in a negative way, seemed to induce more noise. I think that you're right and the display already applies a layer of dithering over the image. It's theoretically capable of a bit larger color space coverage than an average LCD despite being 6bit, so I think it has some software doing this.

Maybe this is how it works for this display only... Too bad it almost the universal display for 17" FHD high end gaming laptops. It's even Gsync capable, but not on my Acer...

I guess that I'll probably note a change on the settings I recommend after getting a 99% adobeRGB display to work on

[Patrik G]

question:
why is motion resolution so low with madrv and the FPD motion test?
this 500M has over 800 lines of motion resolution but with madvr and this test it judders like crazy.
even down to 100 lines.

i have tested with different settings and there is no dropped frames.
checking the same motion resolution test with windows build in movie viewer and its smooth as it should.

what trix needs to be disabled in madvr to get back the default motion resolution?

[huhn]

what settings are you using and is your TV using interpolation at what refreshrate is it running?

can you amke a screen of the OSD and a screen with athe windows movie player?

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by Georgel

That does't look like it has thin edges 8 applied to it at all. I'm not seeing any edge issues there..Really need the original frame, but if I'm judging this picture on it's appearance, I can't fault it.
In saying that, other content may well look worse with those settings.

[pose]

ryrynz, here is comparison from his own site. To me the after picture looks unnatural and with lots of details missing.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wv05mfBis...rned%2Boff.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S6k4Cru_J...ening%2Bx4.png