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Old 31st May 2007, 21:52   #61  |  Link
mlansell
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Originally Posted by honai View Post
Same thing happened to the DVD. Sales went up, not down, after CSS was beaten. Though that might be a correlation rather than causality.
The vast majority of people do not copy DVDs, either for backup, media serving or for piracy. They simply do not have the technical know-how to do it, even with all the tools that are available.

They may buy knock-off movies from some stall in a market, but that's irrelevant to my point - which is that 99% of sales are driven by the availability of cheap, dedicated, under-the-telly boxes to play the disks.

Frankly I'm amazed (after the CSS debacle) that PC drives and software players are even available - if it were not possible to play HD DVDs or BluRay disks on a PC, I doubt that movie sales would have been harmed much at all, and cracking the copy protection would be so much harder.
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Old 31st May 2007, 23:08   #62  |  Link
Johhn
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Originally Posted by mlansell View Post

....................

Frankly I'm amazed (after the CSS debacle) that PC drives and software players are even available - if it were not possible to play HD DVDs or BluRay disks on a PC, I doubt that movie sales would have been harmed much at all, and cracking the copy protection would be so much harder.
I believe that market research showed that unless HD movie disks were playable on pc's and games machines, with the same disk format being available as a recordable media, and the drives having normal usage in pc's, that the whole enterprise would not have been viable.
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Old 1st June 2007, 01:50   #63  |  Link
bourke
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I think they will give CyberLink and InterVideo a couple of attempts at obfuscating their code - probably a three strikes and you're out policy. So I think they are down to having one or two strikes remaining each and then 'sorry you breached your AACS license agreement'.

Sure I think they'll now treat every breach as entirely separate since now they can pinpoint the culprits easier - i.e they'll revoke licences for XP players long before Vista players.

If this is in part of their agreement - then you will probably see CyberLink and InterVideo trying to crack each other's programs in order to have them removed from the market and so create a monopoly on HD player software for themselves!

So roughly by what magnitude is it more difficult to kernel debug a Vista application compared to the equivalent XP app?
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Old 1st June 2007, 02:27   #64  |  Link
insomniak1981
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I think the bypassing of vista DRM belongs to both Alex and Joanna , both formerly of COSENIC. They ran training courses at the recent black hat conference describing kernel attacks which could also be used to bypass vista DRM.
Quote:
As the training will be focused on Windows platform and Vista x64 specifically, we will also present some new kernel attacks against latest Vista x64 builds. These attacks, of course, work on the fly and do not require system reboot and are not afraid of the TPM/Bitlocker protection. (Although they could also be used to bypass Vista DRM protection, this subject will not be discussed during the training).
From http://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/
Seems the Alex mentioned previously and the Alex I was thinking of are not the same. Sorry.

Last edited by insomniak1981; 1st June 2007 at 02:54. Reason: not checking my facts
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Old 1st June 2007, 09:34   #65  |  Link
xyz987
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Originally Posted by mlansell View Post
Frankly I'm amazed (after the CSS debacle) that PC drives and software players are even available - if it were not possible to play HD DVDs or BluRay disks on a PC, I doubt that movie sales would have been harmed much at all, and cracking the copy protection would be so much harder.
Soft players are available because Hollywood needs them to convert PCs in a DRMed by hardware platform (Trusted Computing and alikes).

DRM is all about market control, not about piracy. Piracy is just a false motivation, a lie. DMCA was passed on 1998 (furthermore DMCA is based on 2 WIPO treaties passed on 1996), DVD Video spec (with DRM) was approved on 1995, Napster was first released on 1999 (only for music). DRM was first, piracy was later. You can check the dates at Wikipedia.

So they need soft players because they want to control PC market.

Of course market control is useful to destroy fair use (and other purposes).

Last edited by xyz987; 1st June 2007 at 09:36.
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Old 1st June 2007, 09:57   #66  |  Link
arnezami
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Just to clear up usage of aacskeys: if you put only the new Processing Key in the ...Simple.txt file then it will only be capable of finding keys for new discs (MKB v3 discs). So its better to put both the old Processing Key (09F9) and the new one (455F) in the ...Simple.txt file.

In other words: the new Processing Key cannot open up old discs only new ones. So you need both to find keys for all released discs so far.

Last edited by arnezami; 1st June 2007 at 09:59.
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Old 1st June 2007, 10:55   #67  |  Link
richardlee
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Quick question, but as far as I know there are two processing keys floating around, but the MKB is on version 3.

Did we miss out a processing key somewhere, or did the AACS LA just skip version 2?
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Old 1st June 2007, 11:02   #68  |  Link
FTX
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Originally Posted by FoxDisc View Post
Do they have the right to terminate Cyberlink and Intervideo? Would they want to? The studios want to sell discs and at least for now, large file sizes, slow transfer speeds and high blank media costs limit the actual financial impact of any hidef copying. Customers will scream pretty loudly if their software suddenly turns off as the LA cuts off Cyberlink and Intervideo.
It seems that Intervideo has gone "vista only" with WinDVD 8 Platinum HD/BD:
System Requirements
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ only
VGA card: NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT, GeForce 8600GT, GeForce 8600GTS only

F
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Old 1st June 2007, 11:19   #69  |  Link
aKzenT
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Originally Posted by richardlee View Post
Quick question, but as far as I know there are two processing keys floating around, but the MKB is on version 3.

Did we miss out a processing key somewhere, or did the AACS LA just skip version 2?
AFAIK there are no known HDDVDs with an MKBv2. My guess is that after they designed the MKBv2 (but before it was used) there was some critical new attack (e.g. leaking of processing key, device key, ...) which they wanted to prevent in new HDDVD releases. So they quickly designed the new one.

Also if there are in fact HDDVDs with a MKBv2, then there is a high propability that the new processing key can also be used for this MKB IMO, since they are propably very similar and share many subset differences.
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Old 1st June 2007, 11:23   #70  |  Link
arnezami
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Originally Posted by FTX View Post
It seems that Intervideo has gone "vista only" with WinDVD 8 Platinum HD/BD:
System Requirements
Operating System: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ only
VGA card: NVIDIA GeForce 8500GT, GeForce 8600GT, GeForce 8600GTS only

F
Interesting. Btw: it still says XP is ok here:

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/bdhdTool_Download.jsp
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Old 1st June 2007, 11:45   #71  |  Link
KenD00
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Quite interesting that it only works on the GF8 series and even there only on the mainstream series, not the high end ones. If i remember correctly the mainstream series supports HDCP over dual-link DVI and has some extra video features, maybe also more DRM? I wonder how many they will sell...
How did you get that link? Seems not to be reachable over the main site, this even states that the HD pack will be available soon (says that for 4 months now...).

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Old 1st June 2007, 11:54   #72  |  Link
arnezami
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Originally Posted by KenD00 View Post
How did you get that link? Seems not to be reachable over the main site, this even states that the HD pack will be available soon (says that for 4 months now...).

Looking at the url its possible this is for WinDVD 8 trial versions bundled with certain nVidia cards? And they get redirected here maybe? It also says "Limited time offer" at the right top of the page.

Last edited by arnezami; 1st June 2007 at 11:57.
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Old 1st June 2007, 12:24   #73  |  Link
FTX
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Originally Posted by arnezami View Post
Interesting. Btw: it still says XP is ok here:

http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/bdhdTool_Download.jsp
Yes, but that is only the "advisor"
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Old 1st June 2007, 12:25   #74  |  Link
FTX
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Originally Posted by KenD00 View Post
Quite interesting that it only works on the GF8 series and even there only on the mainstream series, not the high end ones. If i remember correctly the mainstream series supports HDCP over dual-link DVI and has some extra video features, maybe also more DRM? I wonder how many they will sell...
How did you get that link? Seems not to be reachable over the main site, this even states that the HD pack will be available soon (says that for 4 months now...).

Probably only on the 8600/8500 cards because only they come with the VP2 while the 8800 only has VP1
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Old 1st June 2007, 12:31   #75  |  Link
arnezami
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Originally Posted by FTX View Post
Yes, but that is only the "advisor"
Not just the advisor. Requirements for the advisor are shown at the top of the page under "Notes".

But a little lower there are the "High-Definition Suggested System Requirements" and there it says XP too. These are the requirements for HD playback. (btw this is the page you get when clicking in the advisor itself on something that isn't ok).

Last edited by arnezami; 1st June 2007 at 12:33.
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Old 1st June 2007, 12:35   #76  |  Link
FTX
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Someone on AVS has bought it and apparently, it doesn't support the Xbox add-on... so much for HD-DVD playback with it.

F
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Old 1st June 2007, 12:38   #77  |  Link
SuperGoof
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Originally Posted by KenD00 View Post
How did you get that link?
My guess is:

The front page has this link :

Corel Announces InterVideo® WinDVD® BD/HD-DVD Playback/Navigation Support for NVIDIA® GeForce® 8 Series GPUs

which in turn says:

Availability, Licensing
WinDVD 8 BD/HD-DVD is available through Corel’s worldwide resellers and online at www.intervideo.com/nvidia.

And the last link redirects to

http://www.intervideo.com/nVidia/Win...n1_landing.jsp
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Old 1st June 2007, 13:20   #78  |  Link
Galileo2000
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Originally Posted by arnezami View Post
Not just the advisor. Requirements for the advisor are shown at the top of the page under "Notes".

But a little lower there are the "High-Definition Suggested System Requirements" and there it says XP too. These are the requirements for HD playback. (btw this is the page you get when clicking in the advisor itself on something that isn't ok).
According to AVS there are problems with S/PDIF out on playback. Doesn't work with AnyDVD HD and doesn't like 360 xbox HD DVD add-on."Connected HD DVD device is not supported".
The last one is pretty bad.

Just 3 video cards supported?

They probably were so scared by AACS they only tested for the leaked keys and not much more.
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Old 1st June 2007, 14:25   #79  |  Link
Peer van Heuen
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Originally Posted by Galileo2000 View Post
According to AVS there are problems with S/PDIF out on playback. Doesn't work with AnyDVD HD and doesn't like 360 xbox HD DVD add-on."Connected HD DVD device is not supported".
The last one is pretty bad.

Just 3 video cards supported?

They probably were so scared by AACS they only tested for the leaked keys and not much more.
I haven't looked at this too closely yet, but it appears to me, that this is just another WinDVD OEM version, that comes bundled with select NVidia cards. The fact that the link also includes an offer to buy it, is a puzzle to me though.

That it doesn't work with AnyDVD - well WinDVD didn't play unencrypted Blu-Ray discs before either, so that's no wonder (unencrypted BDMV is not in the specs anyway, we're all lucky, that PowerDVD is such a friendly software - I hope, you're all buying their stuff they actually deserve it).

Whether it would play HD-DVD with AnyDVD remains to be confirmed, though, if it really doesn't work with the X-Box drive, there is no way to tell at the moment...
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Old 1st June 2007, 14:30   #80  |  Link
Peer van Heuen
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Originally Posted by aKzenT View Post
AFAIK there are no known HDDVDs with an MKBv2. My guess is that after they designed the MKBv2 (but before it was used) there was some critical new attack (e.g. leaking of processing key, device key, ...) which they wanted to prevent in new HDDVD releases. So they quickly designed the new one.

Also if there are in fact HDDVDs with a MKBv2, then there is a high propability that the new processing key can also be used for this MKB IMO, since they are propably very similar and share many subset differences.
The MKB version number is mainly used for synchronizing revocation lists. This applies to HRLs/DRLs.
From my understanding, the version number wouldn't have to change at all if the only news is some revoked device keys (effectively revoking a processing key if you like).

So they may just have forgotten some Host IDs on v2 (after all, the list of revoked host certificates in v3 is fairly long).
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