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Old 1st February 2019, 21:55   #54541  |  Link
SamuriHL
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I've gone back and forth on that one. madshi theorized that with dynamic on it wouldn't need to do as much of its own tone mapping on top of what madvr does. With the latest LG firmware they fixed a few of the issues I saw so it's definitely better, but, I'll do some more testing with it off and see if there's a big difference.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 00:10   #54542  |  Link
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting where it brightens up most non-bright scenes that wouldn't need any tone mapping at all. I guess a more fitting term would be "bright room mode" instead of dynamic tone mapping.
Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 00:15   #54543  |  Link
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That's why I currently have it enabled in my setup. There was some DEFINITE issues in previous firmware versions that seem to be fixed now. Since then I've not seen any real issues with dynamic enabled and using madvr tonemapping set to a 700 target nit. It looks fantastic to me. But then again, I don't proclaim to be an expert in this area. I'm still constantly learning and I've been playing with this since last summer.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 01:57   #54544  |  Link
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What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
Watching on a 4k tv. Resolution off course is set to 3840×2160 on a Samsung UE55JS9000.
In MadVR I've set the scaling settings to 1080p23

It's only the beginning of the file that has a delay, the rest plays normal. If my system would struggle, shouldn't it struggle with the whole file ? Weird that it struggles in the beginning of it then.

Then I would rather have it that after the delay it starts playing from 00:00:00 audio and video.
Now it's audio after 5s and audio+video after 10s
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Old 2nd February 2019, 02:14   #54545  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:40   #54546  |  Link
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you are changing the refreshrate and the resolution by doing this your TV has to "resync"(it's the wrong word but whatever) and the time this takes is defined by your TV maybe AVR not really madVR.

a normal PC monitor can do this in about a sec or even less. TV and even worse projectors can take a long time like 5-20 secs.

a workaround would be leaving the screen at 1080p23
using a player that can start a file paused and enter fullscreen before you play.

using FSE can add even more blackscreen.
Ok. Thanks for the info.

So I guess Mediaportal doesn't have such a function then ?

Anyway here's the link to the exact problem I have.
And people saying with another version they didn't have the problem.

http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=479
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Old 2nd February 2019, 11:58   #54547  |  Link
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did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 12:24   #54548  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to look similar to this. Scenes that are below the source peak get some relief from tone mapping, which will make them appear brighter as they follow PQ curve more closely. The other scenes that seem darker are probably being tone mapped. The 2018 models should be following the PQ curve in the 0-100 nits region, mostly to fix the raised blacks issue from the 2017 models. They are known to track the curve properly from the factory.

I would think you would get the best results by leaving dynamic tone mapping enabled. Using a static curve will provide no relief from tone mapping for the entire movie. This would only make sense if the display disabled its tone mapping when confronted with metadata that indicates the source is within the display's brightness. But dynamic tone mapping should already do this without needing any metadata.

I've seen some spectacular HDR on a 2018 LG OLED, so I have no reason to bash it's tone mapping.
Not sure I'm getting what you're trying to say. Isn't tonemapping only needed because of TVs having a too low peak brightness?
As far as I know mastering monitors don't do any tonemapping, so non-bright scenes should look similar to what I see with dynamic tonemapping disabled.
Then why would it be a good thing to brighten up darker scenes?

I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
I just displayed a 50 nits movie scene in the background while running a grayscale sweep in HCFR.
The result shows exactly what my eyes have been seeing when using LGs dynamic tonemapping. Large deviations from the PQ, even in the lower range. With it turned off it at least follows it nicely up to like 125 nits.

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Old 2nd February 2019, 13:42   #54549  |  Link
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did you try something simply like disabling FSE?
I've just checked and it's disabled already, so that is not the solution.

I'm going to try if this maybe make a difference :

In the Devices section under the "Generic PnP Monitor", you can choose "Display modes"
and the current setting is : Switch to matching display mode...when playback starts

So maybe it makes a difference when I choose ...when media player goes fullscreen ?

I'll try it in a moment and will post the result

For now I'll leave the "restore original display mode...when mediaplayer is closed" as it is.

I've just checked and I'm using MadVR 0.92.17, that's the latest version, right ?


Update : Nothing changed, I had hoped, that would do something

Last edited by Soxbrother; 2nd February 2019 at 13:54.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 14:12   #54550  |  Link
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I've adjusted the resolution of my 4ktv to 1920x1080, now the video starts almost instantly.
I've also disabled the "Switch to matching display mode" setting, because it has no use now.

But now I'm wondering if the video would look better at it's native 1080p resolution
or if it would look better even on the 4k resolution.

Any thoughts on that ?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 14:29   #54551  |  Link
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New problem : inside Mediaportal, the font size is too big ( windows screen settings is at 150%)
Now when I set it at 100%, everything is as it should be, but now I only hear audio and have no video,
What to do now ?
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Old 2nd February 2019, 15:26   #54552  |  Link
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Not sure I'm getting what you're trying to say. Isn't tonemapping only needed because of TVs having a too low peak brightness?
As far as I know mastering monitors don't do any tonemapping, so non-bright scenes should look similar to what I see with dynamic tonemapping disabled.
Then why would it be a good thing to brighten up darker scenes?

I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
I just displayed a 50 nits movie scene in the background while running a grayscale sweep in HCFR.
The result shows exactly what my eyes have been seeing when using LGs dynamic tonemapping. Large deviations from the PQ, even in the lower range. With it turned off it at least follows it nicely up to like 125 nits.
You could be right, but I don't know if your test is accurate. If it is the newest model, it would be less likely the display would be deviating from the curve. Your graph would show raised blacks rather than true black in many scenes because it is lifting the bottom of the curve. That isn't supposed to be the case, unless the display is trying to compensate for poor near black response.

You are somewhat misunderstanding how a static tone curve works. The display will take the static metadata value (usually 1,000 nits mastering peak or 4,000 nits mastering peak) and plot a single tone curve for the entire movie. That curve never changes; it is static, so the entire movie will roll-off the brightness depending on the aggressiveness of the chosen curve. In other words, the whole movie will be slightly darker than intended (tone mapped). There is no relief from this tone curve at any point. The display will follow the PQ curve up to a certain point and add a knee point where the roll-off begins.

A dynamic tone curve will use the source peak as the target for the tone curve, but it will decrease and increase the roll-off as the scene peak changes. So scenes within the brightness of the display (700 nits) can be shown 1:1 with the PQ curve because tone mapping is not required (tone mapping could be disabled or significantly reduced). Scenes that are close to the source peak should look similar to a static tone curve and would use a standard roll-off. The tone mapping roll-off is necessary to present the intended contrast of the scene to make it look HDR when the display lacks the necessary luminance to show all values within its available dynamic range. It is a no-no to go above the PQ curve at any time, but going below the PQ curve is what is considered tone mapping.

I think the area LG needs to improve upon compared to the competition is in blending these changes in brightness. They may be moving the knee point for the tone curve too often or are doing a poor job of fluctuating the roll-off. I haven't heard of any accounts from the reviews I've read of the display boosting the brightness above the PQ curve. The only display that I know does that is the Samsung Q9FN, which consistently boosts 0-100 nits.

madVR is also using a dynamic tone curve with brightness changes, but those changes may be masked better. However, the fluctuations in brightness will be more noticeable when using a range of 0-700 nits than 0-120 nits, so dynamic tone mapping on a bright display can always be capable of some visible shifts in brightness. This is done to keep the image as bright as possible throughout the presentation inline with the original mastered values. No one likes a dark image, so tone mapping compression should be minimized.

Last edited by Warner306; 2nd February 2019 at 16:09.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 16:40   #54553  |  Link
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It is a no-no to go above the PQ curve at any time, but going below the PQ curve is what is considered tone mapping.
But that is exactly what LG's dynamic tonemapping is doing for pretty much any scene that is below the TVs peak brightness. It heavily goes above the PQ curve and that why I think it's crap. It's like what samsung is doing.

And it's not even good at revealing otherwise clipped highlights. MadVR does a much better job at this.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 16:45   #54554  |  Link
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I don't think this is intended, but it could be doing some monkey business with the source, or you need an HDR calibration. Like I said, the newer the model, the better. Panasonic and Sony are known to be better at this.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 17:10   #54555  |  Link
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I did a small test to see how much LGs dynamic tonemapping messes with non-bright scenes.
Thanks for the graphs! Which LG TV is it?
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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting
It seems exactly like the "dynamic contrast" for SDR TVs
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Old 2nd February 2019, 17:45   #54556  |  Link
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A final issue with a lot of displays, specifically home TVs, is the manufacturers deliberately deviating from the HDR specification, in an attempt to generate what they view as 'better' images.

This obviously means the same source footage will be seen very differently on different displays, even if the displays are defined as being 'calibrated'.

However, this issue is actually something we have sympathy for, because as mentioned previously above, the PQ HDR specification is flawed, as the standard is 'absolute', and includes no option to increase the display's light output to overcome surrounding room light levels. The result is that in less than ideal viewing environments, where the surrounding room brightness level is relatively high, the bulk of the HDR image will appear very dark, with shadow detail potentially becoming very difficult to see.

Many home TV manufacturers therefore deliberately 'distort' the PQ HDR EOTF (gamma curve) to attempt to overcome this issue.
https://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
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Old 2nd February 2019, 19:11   #54557  |  Link
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I think Warner306 hit it on the head when you mentioned that LG does not do a good job at moving between scenes. The impact can be very jarring. The latest firmware fixed a little of that and it's a LOT better than it used to be. They're either reacting too quickly to a brightness change or not quickly enough....I don't know which. But the effect in some scenes pulls you right out of the movie you're watching. That is my one gripe with it. Now maybe that's a symptom of what j82k is talking about with LG going above the PQ curve, I don't really know. I doubt the 2018 owners will see much more improvement now that the 2019 models are coming but we can hope.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 20:43   #54558  |  Link
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I think it's intentional. People often praise the HDR brightness of LG Oleds compared to other manufacturers, even calling sonys dim. I think the reason for that is that LG intentionally made the PQ curve brighter with dynamic tonemapping (which is enabled by default) to stand out when people compare TVs in the showroom and those who display HDR correctly will look dim in comparison. They probably learned that marketing strategy from samsung.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:25   #54559  |  Link
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Thanks, that was really informative! Although I use madVR beta since about 4 months now, I'm still rookie to HDR, e.g. I didn't know:
- absolute vs relative standards (I thought they're all relative)
-- hence viewing environment considarations
-- display device flaws: abl, local dimming
- color gamut volume: 90% of DCI-P3 is basically Rec709

More and more I read about it, I have less intention to replace my current SDR TV.

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
They probably learned that marketing strategy from samsung.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 14:17   #54560  |  Link
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I think it's intentional. People often praise the HDR brightness of LG Oleds compared to other manufacturers, even calling sonys dim. I think the reason for that is that LG intentionally made the PQ curve brighter with dynamic tonemapping (which is enabled by default) to stand out when people compare TVs in the showroom and those who display HDR correctly will look dim in comparison. They probably learned that marketing strategy from samsung.
All the k-brands cheat on their cellphone benchmarks, they've stopped that after being caught..

It's up to madvr enthusaists to put a stop to PQ curve cheating. !!
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