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Old 1st February 2019, 00:26   #54521  |  Link
el Filou
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Originally Posted by Soxbrother View Post
When I play some mkv inside mediaportal, I get a black screen for about 9 seconds, audio starts after 5 seconds. Any way around this ?
Does the madVR OSD appear during those 4 seconds where there's only audio? Post a screenshot if it does.
It sometimes takes a few seconds for some files to start playing on my system, but it's closer to 3 than 5.
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Old 1st February 2019, 00:43   #54522  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
compared to what MadVR's tonemapping can do today. With the dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets recently developped in test builds with Soulnight's utility, this is the best HDR has ever looked. I have zero desire for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision support anymore.
Could you provide a link to where this is being discussed?
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Old 1st February 2019, 00:57   #54523  |  Link
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Could you provide a link to where this is being discussed?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...projector.html
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Old 1st February 2019, 15:43   #54524  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
HDR Passthrough is VERY poor quality on most displays compared to what MadVR's tonemapping can do today. With the dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets recently developped in test builds with Soulnight's utility, this is the best HDR has ever looked. I have zero desire for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision support anymore. DVDFab player simply can't match this.
I can agree that the tone mapping has improved by leaps and bounds, but you are often forgetting the experience of flat panel TV owners with displays that have a peak brightness of 700 nits to 2500 nits. Converting to SDR requires a seperate picture mode, which usually has to be selected manually, and some help from the display. An OLED will only get you as far 400 nits in SDR, kind of negating some of the benefits of dynamic tone mapping designed to reduce unnecessary losses in luminance. Not many would survive SDR at 400 nits, and almost no one would survive SDR at 1,000 nits without a suntan. So I don't agree that everyone should give up on HDR passthrough. Many of the bright flat panels with dynamic tone mapping do very little tone mapping at all in HDR mode because of its high peak brightness.

Projectors are almost universally static and poor at tone mapping, but the newest flat panels are actually not bad at all. The OLEDs from LG, Sony, Panasonic and Phillips all use dynamic tone mapping and are compared regularly to the Sony BVM OLED mastering monitor with great accuracy in many cases. I'm betting the image coming from madVR would be sharper, but the newest flat panels aren't doing a poor job of tone mapping. Even bright LEDs are starting to leverage the same dynamic HDR10 tone mapping from the OLEDs.

Those with a bright flat panel would probably want to output in an HDR format from madVR via its internal tone mapping or through the tone mapping by the TV. Not using HDR mode when your display with dynamic tone mapping is able to avoid most tone mapping for the majority of many movies because of its high peak brightness doesn't make much sense if you are going to convert to SDR and tone map heavily for every movie. You are just making HDR darker than it needs to be to use a better tone mapping algorithm. And the newest solutions from LG, Panasonic and Sony are known to be high-quality. Samsung is even adding dynamic tone mapping to its LEDs this year.

The lay of the land for HDR is very different for projectors and flat panel TVs. Projectors are way behind TVs when it comes to dynamic tone mapping and color accuracy. You would want accurate metadata when outputting in an HDR format with madVR's pixel shaders or for any display that uses this metadata to set the peak for the tone curve.

Last edited by Warner306; 1st February 2019 at 15:55.
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Old 1st February 2019, 16:31   #54525  |  Link
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Good point, at least for the displays that can reach more than 1000nits in HDR and support dynamic tonemapping with HDR10 content (not many). I keep forgetting indeed how poorly designed flat panels are in that they don't allow to reach peak brightness in a non HDR mode. I guess in that case users are stuck with a driver that can passthrough the correct metadata, until MS/nVidia/Madshi can correct this. Here, only 385.28 allows this, although 388.16 (the default driver installed by MS when detecting the GPU) seems to passthrough metadata correctly too, contrary to what I reported yesterday. Some are reporting more recent drivers working with passthrough, it might be dependent on GPU models and bit depth.

However, if I had an OLED in a dedicated room, I would much rather use MadVR's dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with a peak brightness of 400nits than the display's static tonemapping at 600nits+. So I stand by what I said, which applies to most current displays.

If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
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Old 1st February 2019, 16:50   #54526  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Here, only 385.28 allows this, although 388.16 (the default driver installed by MS when detecting the GPU) seems to passthrough metadata correctly too, contrary to what I reported yesterday. Some are reporting more recent drivers working with passthrough, it might be dependent on GPU models and bit depth
Is there any obvious way to know if the driver is sending incorrect metadata? I mean like the picture being obviously 'wrong'. I'm using 416.34 and it seems to work well, but now I'm reading that this incorrect metadata issue has been present for a while even before this version.
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Old 1st February 2019, 16:57   #54527  |  Link
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Is there any obvious way to know if the driver is sending incorrect metadata? I mean like the picture being obviously 'wrong'. I'm using 416.34 and it seems to work well, but now I'm reading that this incorrect metadata issue has been present for a while even before this version.
If your display doesn't report the metadata, then no, you need a device such as the HD Fury Vertex.

You could install 385.28 and see if you get any improvements on your display. If you don't you can always go back to a more recent driver.

There is a thread about drivers versions reporting that some users do get metadata passthrough with recent drivers including 417.71. It's not the case here.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:03   #54528  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
However, if I had an OLED in a dedicated room, I would much rather use MadVR's dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with a peak brightness of 400nits than the display's static tonemapping at 600nits+. So I stand by what I said, which applies to most current displays.
My concern with such a setup is that one doesn't only play HDR content. So somehow I need to flip the screen between different brightness between SDR and HDR. Even if I get madVR to process SDR content to lower its brightness, the players user interface still remains a problem, somehow need to select a movie to play.

As far as I know, this is still a mostly unsolved problem. Personally, I really like stuff that "just works" once its all setup.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:10   #54529  |  Link
Soxbrother
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
Does the madVR OSD appear during those 4 seconds where there's only audio? Post a screenshot if it does.
It sometimes takes a few seconds for some files to start playing on my system, but it's closer to 3 than 5.
No, nothing appears on screen.
I'll post info of my system.
As far as I know I'm using the latest version of MadVR and upscaling set to dvxa2, other settings I'll have to check.
I'm using a HP Pavilion 300-030nb with Intel HD Graphics 4400 onboard and 4gb Ram and i3 processor.
I did found something with google and other people had the same problem and submitted a bug report. Someone said a previous version didn't have the problem. But the page I found was from the beginning of 2018. So we are many versions past that.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:14   #54530  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
My concern with such a setup is that one doesn't only play HDR content. So somehow I need to flip the screen between different brightness between SDR and HDR. Even if I get madVR to process SDR content to lower its brightness, the players user interface still remains a problem, somehow need to select a movie to play.

As far as I know, this is still a mostly unsolved problem. Personally, I really like stuff that "just works" once its all setup.
True, if your display doesn't allow to have two different user modes, one for SDR, one for tonemapped HDR, and switch automatically according to content, then it can be a problem.

It is fully solved here because I have one Rec-709/BT1886 calibration with peak brightness at 50nits for SDR content, and one BT2020/Gamma 2.2 calibration with peak brightness at the PJ's max (at the moment around 100nits) for tonemapped HDR.

I use the BT2020 flag in the calibration tab to tell the Vertex when SDR BT2020 content (HDR tonemapped by MadVR) is being sent, and it selects automatically the SDR BT2020 calibration with brightest settings.

When the content goes back to SDR Rec-709, the correct calibration is selected, with best contrast and lower black floor.

This works automatically with any player, MPC-BE, MyMovies, jRiver, because it's triggered by the content being played, not by the player itself.

The Vertex also selects a specific calibration for 3D, x.v.color, HDR10 (HDR passthrough) and HLG, when I use sources that support this.

True, it needs a display that support RS-232, but it's completely transparent for any user here, including my 3 year old daughter, so it just works once it's set-up.

Thanks again to Madshi by the way for implementing this BT2020 flag in the SDR metadata. It makes a huge difference from a user experience point of view.
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Last edited by Manni; 1st February 2019 at 17:19.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:14   #54531  |  Link
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You could install 385.28 and see if you get any improvements on your display.
Thanks - unfortunately custom resolutions with this driver version don't work well for me. I can't seem to get any good timings with it.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:19   #54532  |  Link
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If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
All of the current gen OLEDs from LG, Sony, Panasonic and Phillips apply dynamic tone mapping to HDR10 content. They are all using the same panels and are starting to look more and more identical with each passing year as they copy each other. As stated, Samsung is supposedly adding dynamic tone mapping to its QLEDs this year.

This would have been a good time for JVC to get into dynamic tone mapping because projectors do the most tone mapping of any current displays. They probably shouldn't have put it off for another possible generation when the technology is already available.
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Old 1st February 2019, 17:46   #54533  |  Link
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I've found that the best middle ground for OLEDs is to use the madVR tone mapping with pixel shaders outputting in HDR for a peak of 700 nits. SDR loses too much peak brightness for HDR (400 nits max) and the LG dynamic tone mapping can actually completely destroy dark scenes since it raises the overall black level. See the 2001 Space Odyssey star scene and watch as stars disappear with dynamic tone mapping. There are also some differences in color between LG and madVR, where I think madVR looks more correct. LG's dynamic tone mapping also handles 4000 nit movies rather poorly, at least on my B7. Whether there is a double tone mapping effect between madVR and the LG for this config, I don't know, but it clearly looks more accurate doing this.
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Old 1st February 2019, 18:07   #54534  |  Link
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The raised blacks in the 2017 LGs have been documented. You need a 2018 model to get the newest dynamic tone mapping with a more neutral reference white. It wouldn't be surprising, either, if they were still handling gamut mapping less accurately. But you have to watch for double processing when madVR hands off to the TV. It is good to use an external reference such as the SDR Blu-ray to ensure madVR and the TV work harmoniously together and don't cause any unwanted shifts to the color.

Pixel shader would probably work really well with LEDs that reach 1,000 to 1,500 because they tend to ignore the highlights in the brightest movies in a favour of a gentle roll-off. It would be beneficial to bring that very bright detail back without making the overall image any darker.
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Old 1st February 2019, 18:08   #54535  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
All of the current gen OLEDs from LG, Sony, Panasonic and Phillips apply dynamic tone mapping to HDR10 content. They are all using the same panels and are starting to look more and more identical with each passing year as they copy each other. As stated, Samsung is supposedly adding dynamic tone mapping to its QLEDs this year.

This would have been a good time for JVC to get into dynamic tone mapping because projectors do the most tone mapping of any current displays. They probably shouldn't have put it off for another possible generation when the technology is already available.
Dynamic tonemapping is old school, that's what we were doing last year

I asked for dynamic tonemapping *and* dynamic targets with HDR10 (what you can currently achieve with MadVR's test build and Soulnight's utility). AFAIK no display currently does this.

JVC offers the best OEM tonemapping on projectors currently with their new models. That covers basic needs that work out of the box in most situations.

Those who want better results have a few options, namely MadVR and Lumagen.

I don't think projectors will ever keep up with these, so I'm not expecting anything special from any display manufacturer.
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Last edited by Manni; 2nd February 2019 at 00:07.
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Old 1st February 2019, 18:45   #54536  |  Link
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I really don't get why people keep praising LG's dynamic tone mapping. It's terrible and I don't ever use it. It behaves almost like a dynamic contrast setting where it brightens up most non-bright scenes that wouldn't need any tone mapping at all. I guess a more fitting term would be "bright room mode" instead of dynamic tone mapping.


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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Is there any obvious way to know if the driver is sending incorrect metadata? I mean like the picture being obviously 'wrong'. I'm using 416.34 and it seems to work well, but now I'm reading that this incorrect metadata issue has been present for a while even before this version.
The LG C8 actually uses different 20 point white balance adjustment points when sending 4000 nits metadata compared to 1000 nits.
I don't know the exact numbers on top of my head but with 1000 nits metadata the second last adjustment point is 6XX and with 4000 nits metatdata it's 7XX.

So that's a good way to check if metadata is sent correctly I guess.
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Old 1st February 2019, 18:51   #54537  |  Link
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I'm using a HP Pavilion 300-030nb with Intel HD Graphics 4400 onboard and 4gb Ram and i3 processor.
What is your screen definition? 4 GB isn't a lot for madVR with integrated graphics. Depending on the settings, VRAM usage can already take around 500 MB even for 1080p. 4K would take a bit more than 2 GB, leaving less than 2 GB for the OS and applications. Maybe your system is struggling from lack of RAM?
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:02   #54538  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Good point, at least for the displays that can reach more than 1000nits in HDR and support dynamic tonemapping with HDR10 content (not many). I keep forgetting indeed how poorly designed flat panels are in that they don't allow to reach peak brightness in a non HDR mode. I guess in that case users are stuck with a driver that can passthrough the correct metadata, until MS/nVidia/Madshi can correct this. Here, only 385.28 allows this, although 388.16 (the default driver installed by MS when detecting the GPU) seems to passthrough metadata correctly too, contrary to what I reported yesterday. Some are reporting more recent drivers working with passthrough, it might be dependent on GPU models and bit depth.

However, if I had an OLED in a dedicated room, I would much rather use MadVR's dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with a peak brightness of 400nits than the display's static tonemapping at 600nits+. So I stand by what I said, which applies to most current displays.

If there are displays that do dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets with HDR10 content (given that HDR10+ isn't supported on UHD Bluray), I'd like to know which ones, because I'm not aware of any, although that's probably off topic.
My C8 does dynamic tone mapping. I combine it with madvr's and set a target of 700. What little tonemapping that needs to be done is done by madvr and passed to the tv. In theory the TV's dynamic tonemapping wouldn't need to do anything because it should be under the max nits for the display. This is what I've been using for a while now and absolutely love the results I get.

EDIT: Yes, I see your reply about dynamic targets above...
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:06   #54539  |  Link
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Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I've found that the best middle ground for OLEDs is to use the madVR tone mapping with pixel shaders outputting in HDR for a peak of 700 nits. SDR loses too much peak brightness for HDR (400 nits max) and the LG dynamic tone mapping can actually completely destroy dark scenes since it raises the overall black level. See the 2001 Space Odyssey star scene and watch as stars disappear with dynamic tone mapping. There are also some differences in color between LG and madVR, where I think madVR looks more correct. LG's dynamic tone mapping also handles 4000 nit movies rather poorly, at least on my B7. Whether there is a double tone mapping effect between madVR and the LG for this config, I don't know, but it clearly looks more accurate doing this.
I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
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Old 1st February 2019, 20:21   #54540  |  Link
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I agree, it definitely is an improvement even if there is a "double tonemapping" effect going on. And that's exactly how I drive my setup and it's been amazing so far!
I suggest you don't use LG's dynamic tone mapping at all, as I mentioned above, it does much more harm than good. I used it in the beginning as well because I had to in order to watch 4000 nit content at all before madshi fixed the HDR output for pixel shaders, but it's definitely not needed now.
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