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Old 7th December 2015, 13:59   #34501  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
you can switch the display manually to HDR mode even if the source doesn't support HDMI 2.0a.
HEVC HDR encodes include extra metadata that is required to properly interpret the image, without this its not possible to show it properly.
The display needs to get this metadata from the player somehow, otherwise all bets are off. If you want to somehow manually do that through external hardware, go nuts, but thats hardly relevant for madVR at this point.

Also, that still leaves the problem that I seriously doubt HDR is meant to be transferred over RGB, as there is a distinctly different conversion from YUV/YCbCr to RGB for HDR content, and any RGB converted without this would already be mangled and damaged.

A PC cannot output content "untouched", since PCs cannot output YCbCr as-is through consumer hardware/software.
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Old 7th December 2015, 14:29   #34502  |  Link
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FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.
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Old 7th December 2015, 14:37   #34503  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.
Thanks for this bit of hope!

Will we get the option to use PQ gamma, or will this be a fixed setting in MadVR?

Any idea when we might be able to test this?

Which GPU/Driver/MadVR settings will you recommend re pixel format / levels?

Let me know if you'd like me to beta test, I should have an X7000 in the next few weeks.

Does this mean you're going to implement HDR support in MadTPG for calibration as well? That would be great!
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Last edited by Manni; 7th December 2015 at 14:51.
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Old 7th December 2015, 16:04   #34504  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
FWIW, I'm working on HDR playback as we speak. However, madVR will convert the content to use a normal gamma transfer function. I expect final quality to be better this way than sending the HDR content untouched to the display and letting the display do all the processing.
Couldn't high-end displays do backlight trickery to achieve a much higher contrast/dynamic range when they have all the information?
I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like something that might happen.
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Old 7th December 2015, 17:40   #34505  |  Link
James Freeman
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Madshi are you using the HDR clips Manni provided as reference?
So the HDR metadata is inside the MP4 file and this is what we might expect in the future 10bit, 4:2:0, rec2020, 3840x2160, HEVC?

EDIT:
Playing a little with the HDR demos of Exodus and PI I can get a decent image setting the black level to -30 or so.
It is probably too early to say but if I'd have to guess, I think that these particular demos are just expanded versions of the original and not scene by scene mastered.
The blacks of the content seem to be somewhere in the middle of the range, but what about the lower range?

How the HEVC HDR encoding utilizes the 10bit to distribute the shades and how the TV knows to decode that and engage certain light zones in certain brightness is still a mystery...
What is the difference between the two versions of the same video on that site? One is called "Dynamic Mode"?
Hmmm...

One thing is for certain, all the shadow detail is preserved because it is in the middle of the range unlike in a blu-ray where it is the lowest and first few steps and are blocky.
Together with the high bitrate this creates a very beautiful picture and many times smoother than a standard Bluray.

After Madshi will do his magic on the new format, even people with standard 1080p rec.709 monitors will see a clearly better picture.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 7th December 2015 at 19:08.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:10   #34506  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Hm, my 5 year old TV reports 23p,24p,25p,29p,59p,60p and couple of other interlaced resolution via at least 1 hdmi port. And madVR can correctly switch between them.
Same with my both Samsungs (and 30p support listed and tested too).

So how would I go about checking if the 25 Hz is true/native 25 Hz? This is the first time I've heard that 25 Hz might actually be 50 Hz. I don't understand why the TV would report 25 Hz refresh rate if it's actually in 50 Hz mode.

EDIT: From the TV's manual (under "Supported Video Resolutions"):
1920 x 1080 - Display Format: 25Hz, Horizontal Frequency (KHz): 28.125, Vertical Frequency (Hz): 25.000, Clock Frequency (MHz): 74.250
Don't know if the above means "true" 25 Hz or not?

Last edited by Uoppi; 7th December 2015 at 19:20.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:39   #34507  |  Link
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Reports if 50 or 25 Hz can vary on how interlacing is detected and if deinterlacing is activated automatically. Better check this manually, AFAIK it cannot be entirely perfect in all cases.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:41   #34508  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Couldn't high-end displays do backlight trickery to achieve a much higher contrast/dynamic range when they have all the information?
I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like something that might happen.
Philips tried that with the 9703 range a few years back. The problem is it causes flashes of color in the picture when there is motion. Those who know what the rainbow effect is that some people could see on plasmas will know what Im talking about... Its just like that but only stronger.

edit....

http://www.appliancedesign.com/artic...rightness-9-19

see above url for a little info on the spec.

Last edited by Razoola; 7th December 2015 at 19:45.
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Old 7th December 2015, 19:48   #34509  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Oh, I thought almost all current TVs do?

Windows reports both my Samsung TVs from 2008 and 2014 as supporting 25 Hz, but it's not necessarily "true" 25 Hz then? The TVs' info OSD also says 25 Hz and the manual lists 25 Hz as a supported refresh rate.
I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display. As nevcairiel says, "25 Hz" input is likely for interlaced but even if you could send your TV 25p content, it'll display it at at least 50 Hz. Likely more, especially if it's a plasma (mine does 100 Hz for 25/50p and 96 Hz for 24p).
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Old 7th December 2015, 20:48   #34510  |  Link
chros
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Same with my both Samsungs (and 30p support listed and tested too).
So how would I go about checking if the 25 Hz is true/native 25 Hz?
Don't know if the above means "true" 25 Hz or not?
There was a long debate about this on avsforum, and the result was truly confusing.
We use our TV driven by PC so it acts like a monitor if you set it up like this, means you turn off every image processing feature that could modify frames. With my LG means: I have to set scan mode, turn off TruMOtion and turn on (!) RealCinema (it's for 24p content, don't ask why they distinguished it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display. As nevcairiel says, "25 Hz" input is likely for interlaced but even if you could send your TV 25p content, it'll display it at at least 50 Hz.
And they discussed what could happen when you set TruMotion on how it would affect frames.
I have 1 problem about this version of the story: my LG is EU version, so it's officially 100Hz (probably it refers to an 50fps content and using TruMotion with it.)
But: what would happen with a 23.976 fps content with it? You'll never get 50Hz, neither 100. So will it use 48??? (They states that it'll use 120Hz with the US version.)
Either way, I think it doesn't matter if the frames are exactly doubled or tripled, we will get continous movement with it, without stuttering and there won't happen any deinterlacing on our TV.
This is how I understand it.
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Last edited by chros; 7th December 2015 at 20:51.
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Old 7th December 2015, 21:39   #34511  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
I wasn't talking about what the TV supports or will accept, I'm talking about what the TV will display.
OK. So if displays only rarely output true 25 Hz, I could just as well omit 25p from madVR's supported refresh rates list, right (because it will be 50 Hz anyway)?

Just wondering, if the TV specs say "Display Format: 25Hz ... Vertical Frequency (Hz): 25.000", shouldn't it be "50.000" instead then?

Anyway, I just realized 29 Hz and 59 Hz are not listed for my TV after all, so I'll need to delete them from madVR's refresh rate list.

Last edited by Uoppi; 7th December 2015 at 21:43.
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Old 7th December 2015, 22:19   #34512  |  Link
chros
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Anyway, I just realized 29 Hz and 59 Hz are not listed for my TV after all, so I'll need to delete them from madVR's refresh rate list.
Listed where? In the manual or in you display driver settings?
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Old 8th December 2015, 00:34   #34513  |  Link
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Dropped frames on dark scenes

Hello.
I'm having strange issue I guess with MadVR.
I have latest MPC-HC 1.7.10, latest MadVR, Lav filders, running on XP. I have a lot of dropped frames on dark/black scenes with not much going on.
So, for example I'm watching Hobbit 720p (8GB mkv file) and everything is pretty much smooth but when movie finishes and Cast of characters scene starts there is a lot of stuttering and dropped frames.
Also, I watched movie Circle (2015) which takes place in dark room with several persons in it, not much going on there, but I got a lot of dropped frames again, movie is barely watchable.

Does anybody now what can be the issue with dark (and slow) scenes?
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Old 8th December 2015, 04:45   #34514  |  Link
digitech
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Just added this profile to MadVR and i want to know guys if you think if it's correct. I just want to have 3 options in MadVR scaler options
1-SD (files lower than 720p),
2-HD (files up than 719p and lower of 1080p) and
3-FULLHD (files up than 1019p)

I want these three options for all video files playback, do you think that with the next arguments i'd be able to achieve what i want

if (srcHeight < 720) "SD"
else if ((fileName = "*720p*") or (srcHeight > 719)) and (srcWidth < 1080) "HD"
else if ((fileName = "*1080p*") or (srcHeight > 1079)) "FULLHD"

Last edited by digitech; 8th December 2015 at 04:46. Reason: errors
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Old 8th December 2015, 06:17   #34515  |  Link
Uoppi
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Listed where? In the manual or in you display driver settings?
Ah, good point - only in the manual.

Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.

(Seems like the manual lists refresh rates the TV can actually display at, while the display driver lists input rates that the TV can accept. Right?)
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:08   #34516  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garson View Post
Hello.
I'm having strange issue I guess with MadVR.
I have latest MPC-HC 1.7.10, latest MadVR, Lav filders, running on XP. I have a lot of dropped frames on dark/black scenes with not much going on.
So, for example I'm watching Hobbit 720p (8GB mkv file) and everything is pretty much smooth but when movie finishes and Cast of characters scene starts there is a lot of stuttering and dropped frames.
Also, I watched movie Circle (2015) which takes place in dark room with several persons in it, not much going on there, but I got a lot of dropped frames again, movie is barely watchable.

Does anybody now what can be the issue with dark (and slow) scenes?
Is the option "don't rerender frames when fade in/fade out is detected" checked in the ‘rendering —> trade quality for performance’ section ? You should test it with this option checked and see if it helps.
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Old 8th December 2015, 15:29   #34517  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Ah, good point - only in the manual.

Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.

(Seems like the manual lists refresh rates the TV can actually display at, while the display driver lists input rates that the TV can accept. Right?)
a TV is clearly not displaying 23 hz material at 24 hz.

in the end the TV has to display the frame it get at the time they get them and this timing is changing from GPU to GPU.
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Old 8th December 2015, 18:25   #34518  |  Link
chros
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Display driver however lists them all and that's where I initially copied them from into madVR. I guess I should leave the setting untouched then.
As huhhn said, it can vary: e.g. I removed 23p and 29p and 59p from the list in madvr because these modes gave me less HZ than the corresponding video material should have (you can't create proper clocks with Ivy Bridge) and that would result frame drops. I just prefer repeated frames instead with 24p/25p/30p/60p settings.
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Old 8th December 2015, 19:45   #34519  |  Link
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Any issue with latest driver beta AMD Crimson 15.11.1 and MadVR?
(my grafic card is R9 380 on win 8.1 )
thx a lot

Last edited by Dreamland; 8th December 2015 at 19:48.
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Old 8th December 2015, 20:33   #34520  |  Link
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There are many bug reports regarding Crimson drivers.
I'd probably wait for a better one.
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