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Old 31st January 2019, 09:28   #54501  |  Link
Charky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
- 12 minutes between frame drops in 3D (vs 3 minutes with 385.28)
- 12bits RGB Full with custom res (CRU), survives a reboot (as long as default refresh rate is 23p)
Has anyone ever managed to switch from 60p RGB 8 bits (default) to custom 23p RGB 12 bits ?

On my setup, 12 bits won't kick in on a custom res if it's not already activated. That's why I stick to 30p RGB 12 bits as the default resolution.

I would be glad to know if someone has ever found a way around...
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:01   #54502  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
But HDR passthrough only activates under very specific conditions (must be windowed, can't be FSE, must be fullscreen, can't be windowed, must be D3D11, can't be D3D9, must be 10bit, can't be 8bit) which is bad, and HDR metadata is not properly passed through, as far as I can see.
Now you're being greedy, you want *everything* to work for *everyone* in a single nVidia driver?

I consider myself lucky if everything I need works. That's why I said "for me":

- I don't use FSE, except in 3D, and it worked fine. I didn't check if I still needed FSE in 3D, I will.
- I only use fullscreen to watch films. When windowed, I don't mind about quality.
- I only use D3D11 native, nothing else can deal with HDR without making too many compromises here
- I only use 10bits because my JVC has a bug in 8bits (as you know, the magenta bug), so 8bits isn't an option except at 4K60p and I have to use a profile to not send metadata in that case.
- I don't really care about passthrough or HDR metadata as I only use pixel shaders tonemapping now given how excellent it is . Except for the BT2020 flag, which I didn't check so good point.

I'll double check a few things later and will report back. Always ready to go back to good old 385.28, or even 416.81
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Last edited by Manni; 31st January 2019 at 11:29.
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Old 31st January 2019, 11:06   #54503  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charky View Post
Has anyone ever managed to switch from 60p RGB 8 bits (default) to custom 23p RGB 12 bits ?

On my setup, 12 bits won't kick in on a custom res if it's not already activated. That's why I stick to 30p RGB 12 bits as the default resolution.

I would be glad to know if someone has ever found a way around...
No, as noted that's still a downside of the recent drivers.

It only works for me if I have 4K23 12bits RGB full as my default refresh mode. That survives a reboot, and it switches to 4K60p 8bits if needed. I use CRU for my custom res at 23p (hours without a drop/repeat).

The opposite doesn't work. If you select 4K60p as default, you're stuck with 8bits after a reboot, it won't switch back to 12bits at 23p.

So not great for gamers, but again, I'm not looking for perfection for everyone, just for something that works for me.
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Old 31st January 2019, 12:31   #54504  |  Link
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@Madshi

I can confirm that 417.71 doesn't send the correct metadata in HDR passthrough. It sends bogus 1000/20 instead of the actual MaxCLL/MaxFALL and bogus 1000/0.030 instead of actual Max/Min DL.

It does send the BT2020 flag correctly when using pixel shaders tonemapping, so the Vertex changes calibration flawlessly between SDR/HDR on the JVC.

It looks like it works for me, as I don't need passthrough anymore, but I'll keep an eye out for any other oddities.

The levels are still borked on the JVCs in 12bits, you have to use 0-255 in MadVR despite the GPU being set to 0-255 and the display being set to standard to get the correct levels, but that means nVidia or the JVC is probably doing something behind MadVR's back. You can't get the correct levels at all with the JVC set to enhanced.

That's one of the reasons why I stayed so long on 385.28, which is the last driver with which the correct settings give the correct levels (so no one dithering behind MadVR's back).

I'm not ruling out going back to it at some point, but that won't be an option if/when I move to RTX, so I have some motivation to find a more recent one.
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Last edited by Manni; 31st January 2019 at 12:33.
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Old 31st January 2019, 13:33   #54505  |  Link
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Considering how often this stuff is changing, maybe the OS is simply overriding whatever data madVR provides, because the OS is not being told. So in short, perhaps the OS HDR API would result in proper metadata, instead of the NV API (which afaik is still preferred by madVR today)?
Microsoft has put a lot of work into trying to make the OS, Desktop and applications all interact in HDR afterall. It would easily be feasible to imagine that the OS needs to be involved at that point for stuff to work properly.
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Old 31st January 2019, 14:17   #54506  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I can confirm that 417.71 doesn't send the correct metadata in HDR passthrough. It sends bogus 1000/20 instead of the actual MaxCLL/MaxFALL and bogus 1000/0.030 instead of actual Max/Min DL.
Is there any way to test if the correct metadata is being sent without an external device like the vertex?
I assume it still shows the correct metadata in madvr even when it is sending the bogus data, correct?
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Old 31st January 2019, 15:32   #54507  |  Link
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Is there any way to test if the correct metadata is being sent without an external device like the vertex?
I assume it still shows the correct metadata in madvr even when it is sending the bogus data, correct?
Yes, metadata is correct in MadVR OSD.

Some displays show the metadata they receive, for example some recent JVC projectors do this, but otherwise you need another device. The Vertex shows it on the screen and on its OLED display, but a simple Integral or Linker can tell you the raw metadata if you can decode it.

@Madshi:
I went back briefly to 385.28 to confirm that the metadata is sent correctly, and it is, although for a short while the Vertex indicated "reserved" which means invalid mode. It was fine afterwards. No idea why.

Weirdly, MadVR custom res don't work even with 385.28, when they used to. Also, I only have the correct levels, with MadVR set to 16-235 as it should be, in SDR. In HDR, I have to set levels in MadVR to 0-255, which isn't correct in my setup.

As this was one of the main benefits of 385.28, I'm going back to 417.71 as I don't need passthrough and levels are borked just the same. At least I do get better 3D with a more recent driver.
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Old 31st January 2019, 15:51   #54508  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Considering how often this stuff is changing, maybe the OS is simply overriding whatever data madVR provides, because the OS is not being told. So in short, perhaps the OS HDR API would result in proper metadata, instead of the NV API (which afaik is still preferred by madVR today)?
Microsoft has put a lot of work into trying to make the OS, Desktop and applications all interact in HDR afterall. It would easily be feasible to imagine that the OS needs to be involved at that point for stuff to work properly.
This poster at AVSForum claims it was broken sometime after v398.11:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57498156

Maybe Nvidia isn't as interested in ripping UHD Blu-rays as the rest of us.
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Old 31st January 2019, 16:15   #54509  |  Link
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Fake metadata is for video games, which don't sent metadata on their own. Consoles don't do that, which results in dim image or clipped highlights, depending on display.

But yeah, it should be enabled only when no metadata is detected, I wonder if there's a toggle somewhere in the drivers.
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Old 31st January 2019, 16:23   #54510  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Fake metadata is for video games, which don't sent metadata on their own.
Which supports my theory that the OS needs to be told about the real metadata, so it stops sending the fake stuff. As far as I can tell, madVR is currently trying to avoid the OS HDR functions by directly using NV HDR functionality. But that may as well be colliding with the OS now, since the OS is very much more HDR aware now then it ever used to be.
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Old 31st January 2019, 16:56   #54511  |  Link
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My observations:
O/S HDR doesn't do anything at display level, at least on my Samsung display. Backlight and contrast do not increase. When using NV HDR, they do max out automatically and once out of HDR mode, the panel goes back to SDR settings. For this reason alone, I stay clear of anything to do with O/S HDR.

Fwiw, I've found nVidia v.416.81 video drivers are the last working drivers that don't require any specific settings in order to work. I think it's pretty universal. However, HD Audio drivers do not work under certain conditions so I edit the last good audio driver that still works properly into the installer - 388.59. I use HDR passthrough with D3D11 auto/native. 12bit doesn't survive a reboot. For that you need 385.28. But, I prefer 8bit over 12bit anyway. I use FSW for 3D and drop a frame every 12.75 mins. I use FSW for everything. FSW or FSE, HDR still switches.
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Old 31st January 2019, 17:10   #54512  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Considering how often this stuff is changing, maybe the OS is simply overriding whatever data madVR provides, because the OS is not being told. So in short, perhaps the OS HDR API would result in proper metadata, instead of the NV API (which afaik is still preferred by madVR today)?
Microsoft has put a lot of work into trying to make the OS, Desktop and applications all interact in HDR afterall. It would easily be feasible to imagine that the OS needs to be involved at that point for stuff to work properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Which supports my theory that the OS needs to be told about the real metadata, so it stops sending the fake stuff. As far as I can tell, madVR is currently trying to avoid the OS HDR functions by directly using NV HDR functionality. But that may as well be colliding with the OS now, since the OS is very much more HDR aware now then it ever used to be.
It's the other way around. OS HDR sends the same bogus metadata, always has. So if you use the OS HDR you just get the wrong metadata all the time. nVidia API was the only way to get proper metadata to the display. But now they have broken this as well, and they send the same bogus metadata irrespective of the way you enable HDR (OS switch or nVidia API).

The other downside of using the OS HDR is that you severely compromise SDR quality, as everything tonemapped to HDR. I'd rather do the opposite and get great HDR to SDR tonemapping with pixel shaders by MadVR that botched SDR to HDR my MS/nVidia.

Frankly all this means even more reasons to leave HDR pass-through behind and use pixel shaders to tonemap. With the right settings, I doubt that any display would do better than that. The JVCs, even the new models, certainly can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
My observations:
Fwiw, I've found nVidia v.416.81 video drivers are the last working drivers that don't require any specific settings in order to work. I think it's pretty universal. However, HD Audio drivers do not work under certain conditions so I edit the last good audio driver that still works properly into the installer - 388.59. I use HDR passthrough with D3D11 auto/native. 12bit doesn't survive a reboot. For that you need 385.28. But, I prefer 8bit over 12bit anyway. I use FSW for 3D and drop a frame every 12.75 mins. I use FSW for everything. FSW or FSE, HDR still switches.
AFAIK the 416.81 drivers do not passthrough HDR better than 417.71, so I'm not sure sure what's the advantage. You still need CRU to get custom res, you still can't hade 12bits survive a reboot if you don't default to 23p, so what's the advantage over 417.71?

The only drivers that did passthrough HDR properly are 385.28 in my testing. Even the crappy 388.16 installed by windows by default are broken re levels, custom res and HDR passthrough, at least here in 12bits.
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Old 31st January 2019, 17:25   #54513  |  Link
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It's the other way around. OS HDR sends the same bogus metadata, always has. So if you use the OS HDR you just get the wrong metadata all the time. nVidia API was the only way to get proper metadata to the display. But now they have broken this as well, and they send the same bogus metadata irrespective of the way you enable HDR (OS switch or nVidia API).
I'm not talking about the switch you as a user can toggle. I'm talking about the API to talk to the OS, something madVR could do. Back in the early HDR days madVR also had an option to choose which method to use to communicate HDR info, but it was since removed and the NV API is always preferred (if available).
Chances are that the OS sends proper metadata if it knows the proper metadata. Right now, it does not know it, because nothing ever tells it.

You can't judge how this mode works, since you cannot use it.

(These APIs were introduced with Windows 10 Creators Update (1607) as part of DXGI 1.5, fwiw, and they let you specify the full range of HDR headers, both the mastering data, as well as the MaxFALL/MaxCLL values. Several new HDR APIs have been added since, expanding the control applications have over the process. Unfortunately madVR hasn't really been keeping up in development since then, so its very well possibly it could work better by trying to cooperate with Windows 10, instead of trying to work around it.)
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Old 31st January 2019, 18:02   #54514  |  Link
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AFAIK the 416.81 drivers do not passthrough HDR better than 417.71, so I'm not sure sure what's the advantage. You still need CRU to get custom res, you still can't hade 12bits survive a reboot if you don't default to 23p, so what's the advantage over 417.71?

The only drivers that did passthrough HDR properly are 385.28 in my testing. Even the crappy 388.16 installed by windows by default are broken re levels, custom res and HDR passthrough, at least here in 12bits.
As I stated, 416.81 are more universal. YOU can use newer drivers because YOU are using a very specific environment. I am not. I'm a little more diverse and any driver after 416.81 does not meet that diversity. I'll give you one example: Try playing an HDR title with DVDFab Media Player v.3 (the only player that provides full menus for HDR.iso without very special hardware) using any driver newer than 416.81.
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Old 31st January 2019, 18:19   #54515  |  Link
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@Nevcairiel: OK, makes sense. As long as you're not suggesting that we should be permanently in HDR mode, it might be a solution. Let's see if Madshi can fix this.

Final note on 417.71, I don't need FSE anymore for 3D, so I'm now officially FSE free

Right now 417.71 is a keeper for my needs. Let's see if it lasts...
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Old 31st January 2019, 18:23   #54516  |  Link
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As I stated, 416.81 are more universal. YOU can use newer drivers because YOU are using a very specific environment. I am not. I'm a little more diverse and any driver after 416.81 does not meet that diversity. I'll give you one example: Try playing an HDR title with DVDFab Media Player v.3 (the only player that provides full menus for HDR.iso without very special hardware) using any driver newer than 416.81.
Well, if you really want universal, nothing beats 385.28. Every single driver since has broken something or the other.

DVD Fab media player is really buggy and I rip to BD folders, so I can use jRiver to get BD / UHD BD Menus in HDR with 417.71 when I need to, as well as direct TV Series episode playback with MyMovies. And that's with MadVR as a renderer, which is far preferable to whatever DVD Fab is doing.

I haven't tried but if you automount the ISO with jRiver (using data type), it might be able to play it. Anyway that's OT here.
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Old 31st January 2019, 19:15   #54517  |  Link
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That's a bold statement to say DVDFab Media Player v.3 is really buggy. I've been using it for quite a while. I don't have any problems? It also produces a pretty decent picture for HDR since its chroma upscaling is good and since luma makes no difference for UHD HDR especially when passing through. Not that I use it exclusive. I still prefer madVR renderer with supported players but for those times I want menus...

385.28 video drivers can be beat. You know this yourself. For example, 385.28 driver results in a frame drop every few minutes. 416.81, every 12.75. I'd say that's a fairly significant reason to get away from 385.28.

Not all of us use jRiver. I'm not sure how well it handles UHD HDR menus via an iso or open file structure rips because I'm not familiar with it but to suggest it's better than FAB because it utilizes madVR isn't a reason to dismiss it imo. I know FAB automounts iso's. I'm unclear about your jRiver abilities? In one statement you said you use HDR menus when you need to and in another you say you've never tried it? But as you said, let's not get off topic.
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Old 31st January 2019, 19:56   #54518  |  Link
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That's a bold statement to say DVDFab Media Player v.3 is really buggy. I've been using it for quite a while. I don't have any problems? It also produces a pretty decent picture for HDR since its chroma upscaling is good and since luma makes no difference for UHD HDR especially when passing through. Not that I use it exclusive. I still prefer madVR renderer with supported players but for those times I want menus...

385.28 video drivers can be beat. You know this yourself. For example, 385.28 driver results in a frame drop every few minutes. 416.81, every 12.75. I'd say that's a fairly significant reason to get away from 385.28.

Not all of us use jRiver. I'm not sure how well it handles UHD HDR menus via an iso or open file structure rips because I'm not familiar with it but to suggest it's better than FAB because it utilizes madVR isn't a reason to dismiss it imo. I know FAB automounts iso's. I'm unclear about your jRiver abilities? In one statement you said you use HDR menus when you need to and in another you say you've never tried it? But as you said, let's not get off topic.
For me any player that doesn't use MadVR is a poorer player, at least that's on topic

Yes 3D with 385.28 is not as good as we all know, but that's the only minus, compared to all the downsides of later drivers.

You didn't understand what I said. I said that I don't use the ISO automount in jRiver because I rip to BD folders. I didn't test this feature because I don't need it. I was only saying that it might be an option for you if it worked with your UHD ISOs. Of course I use BD and UHD BD Menus, otherwise why would I mention jRiver as an alternative to DVD Fab in this area?

HDR Passthrough is VERY poor quality on most displays compared to what MadVR's tonemapping can do today. With the dynamic tonemapping and dynamic targets recently developped in test builds with Soulnight's utility, this is the best HDR has ever looked. I have zero desire for HDR10+ or Dolby Vision support anymore. DVDFab player simply can't match this.

Yes, there is no luma upscaling with UHD but that doesn't mean that the tonemapping isn't crucial. You can get the player to do it, or the display. I'd rather have MadVR do it .

This should be clearer when a new public build of MadVR is released, with some documentation. It's improved leaps and bounds in the last couple of months regarding HDR tonemapping.

But if you're happy with what your display does with static HDR10 metadata, then of course stick with DVD Fab.

Anyway, there is one thing we agree on, it's that this discussion is off topic, especially what concerns the DVDFab player which doesn't support MadVR.

So let's leave it there.
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Old 31st January 2019, 23:46   #54519  |  Link
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When I play some mkv inside mediaportal, I get a black screen for about 9 seconds, audio starts after 5 seconds. Any way around this ?
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Old 1st February 2019, 00:13   #54520  |  Link
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I can't get UHD highlight recovery and dynamic measurement to work on my older win7 7870xt machine.

Does highlight recovery require dx11 on win 10 or something ?

It's running via CPU decode in lav, then madvr.
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