madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 155

Mark_A_W · 8th June 2010, 00:39

I don't understand all this subtitle quality talk.

I'm running VS Filter, and the Avatar yellow subs (bluray converted to mkv), were perfect.

Subs work fine, they look the same as the original bluray.

Can someone explain the issue?

janos666 · 8th June 2010, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

I don't understand all this subtitle quality talk.

I'm running VS Filter, and the Avatar yellow subs (bluray converted to mkv), were perfect.

Subs work fine, they look the same as the original bluray.

Can someone explain the issue?

He provided a sample image, you can see the problem. But I am on your side and I think that this is not a real problem and can be easily ignored with HD movies (while this is a real problem with SD sources, yes). And it is less noticeable with Spline64 resize (in case you use that) and white texts.

STaRGaZeR · 8th June 2010, 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_A_W

I'm running VS Filter, and the Avatar yellow subs (bluray converted to mkv), were perfect.

Subs work fine, they look the same as the original bluray.

Screenshot?

Keiyakusha · 8th June 2010, 02:04

Well, as madshi said he will add pin for subs, so don't think that I'm asking again about it, I just can't pass by:

Few facts about subtitles & vsfilter from my experience:
1) SD on big screen: looks not very good. doubling resolution - only if you have free cpu power to spare and not an option (I want madvr to do any kinds of scaling, nothing else)
2) HD on smaller screen/resolution: also can look not very good and takes more cpu power which is wasted because subs prepared for full video resolution. In case when subs overlayed with renderer we can control resolution in which subs are rendered (usually we want this to be set to "desktop"), we also can utilize black borders like on 16:10 screen with 16:9 video (not to mention with 2.35-2.4 aspect ratio)
3) we want to use a bit of postprocesing. to do so, we have to include decoder+ffdshow+vsfilter in the same graph. somehow this noticeably affects performance. sadly ffdshow subs are not perfect yet to completely replace vsfilter

pie1394 · 8th June 2010, 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by namaiki

pie1394, you had tearing with Aero disabled. What were your flush settings?

If I don't remember it wrong, it does not matter how the flush settings are adjusted. To me I just feel 1920x1080@59.94Hz with Aero OFF is the only qualified one w/o obvious visual issues.

Luma: Lanczos4
Chroma: Spline64
after last step: flush
[others]: don't flush

ps: The GPU is GTX260+, and the output is 42" Plasma TV with 1080i display characteristics.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pie1394

If I don't remember it wrong, it does not matter how the flush settings are adjusted.

If you have both the top two flush settings as 'don't flush,' there will definitely be tearing, in my experience with Aero off.

Do you have tearing with MadVR's current defaults?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiyakusha

1) SD on big screen: looks not very good.

Also depends on the scaler used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiyakusha

usually we want this to be set to "desktop"

IMO can also be annoying when the subs are scaled independently from the video and they *pop* out from the screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiyakusha

decoder+ffdshow+vsfilter

Which decoder are you currently using that isn't part of ffdshow?

cyberbeing · 8th June 2010, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR

Quote:

Originally Posted by madshi

Do you have a sample for me?

Just enable/disable the resize filter in ffdshow. For example, take a 1920x1080 movie and resize it to something bigger. madVR will only display the upper left 1920x1080 pixels.

I can confirm this. madVR has always had this problem no matter what the video and display resolution is. If you upscale when madVR is playing back a video it only shows the upper left corner as STaRGaZeR says, and if you downscale it places reduced resolution in the center of the old frame size with black borders all around.

Keiyakusha · 8th June 2010, 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by namaiki

Also depends on the scaler used.

Agree, but I like sharp scalers...
EDIT: actually I changing scaler from time to time based on content (anime/film)

Quote:

Originally Posted by namaiki

IMO can also be annoying when the subs are scaled independently from the video and they *pop* out from the screen.

Not sure what you mean here. If you mean case when they displayed on black borders outside of the video frame - this is feature and can be turned on or off (there is some 3rd state but not sure what it does) and not depends on resizing subtitles...
And independently on texture resolution, subs should maintain aspect ratio and be correctly placed (unless there is some bug that I don't know).

Quote:

Originally Posted by namaiki

Which decoder are you currently using that isn't part of ffdshow?

CoreAVC. ffdshow is too slow for me. But even if I'll use ffdshow for decoding, it has the same problems as vsfilter (since we don't do scaling in ffdshow) + some drawbacks of the rendering engine. By the way even If I will do scaling in ffdshow, I need to pay attention for color coefficients (since I need to output yv12 for madvr) which means adding avisynth to the chain and which is I, simple user, don't want to be bothered with. Sadly ffdshow doesn't automatically corrects colors for me.

Hypernova · 8th June 2010, 06:05

I think namaiki mean that if subtitle is scaled independently from the picture, it would sometimes look too sharp compare to the pircture. eg. If you have a SD content, but set the subtitle texture size to, say, 1080p, the sub will stand out from the picture. Personally I prefer it that way though. Subtitle is crucial in my anime watching, so it's ok for me that it's popping out.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 06:10

Yeah, what Hypernova wrote is what I meant, but I guess it's all preference.

Keiyakusha: you're doing other filtering with ffdshow or just subtitles?

cyberlolo · 8th June 2010, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by namaiki

If you have both the top two flush settings as 'don't flush,' there will definitely be tearing, in my experience with Aero off.

I have all options set at "don't flush" and I have no tearing at all (Aero on).

Quote:

Originally Posted by madshi

Flushing can make things better (remove stuttering) and worse (reduce rendering resources). So it's hard to say which effect flushing will have for you. Would be nice if you could try the default flush settings.

I've tried the default settings and they made no difference to me. Everything is the same smooth and with no stuttering than if using "don't flush" in every option.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberlolo

I have all options set at "don't flush" and I have no tearing at all (Aero on).

That's because you have aero on.

iSeries · 8th June 2010, 10:01

@ namaiki - I have all options set to 'Don't flush' and I have no tearing with Aero OFF. This is with my TV at 23.976hz and playback of 23.976fps material.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 10:14

Then, I guess it depends on the setup. :P

For me, on my ~60Hz screen, I will experience tearing if I have both of the top two options set to don't flush.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 10:33

So, does anyone experience any adverse effects with the top two to flush?
or the top to flush loop?

iSeries · 8th June 2010, 10:34

Yep, clearly there is no 'one size fits all' solution!

With the defaults (and other combinations) I was getting more dropped frames than setting them to 'Don't flush'.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSeries

Yep, clearly there is no 'one size fits all' solution!

>_> I'd really like to think there is.

Are you sure there are more drops? ie not just at the start of video playback or after seeking?

iSeries · 8th June 2010, 11:24

I've tested over and over. For example earlier today with the defaults and 30 mins of 'The Dark Knight' I got 8 dropped frames (obviously I reset the stats after playback) and I noticed every single one (no pausing or seeking). With all set to 'Don't flush' I got 0 dropped frames. I've tested and retested both this and the defaults with other movies. In fact, I played an hour of 'Up In The Air' last night and got 0 drops with 'Don't flush'.

namaiki · 8th June 2010, 11:33

kk.. well I'm going to do retesting with all options with the next MadVR release anyways.

Also iSeries, what were your system specs again, and do you get any dropped frames with the OSD turned off? For me, I get plenty of drops/stutter with the OSD turned on, but it is close to perfect with the OSD turned off.

iSeries · 8th June 2010, 11:52

Win 7 32bit, ATI 4550 (latest CCC), Aero off, with my TV as the secondary monitor. It was after watching with the defaults (and OSD off) that prompted me to do the testing, as normally I'm a 'defaults' kind of guy

8th June 2010, 02:04	#3084 \| Link
Keiyakusha 契約者 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,576	Well, as madshi said he will add pin for subs, so don't think that I'm asking again about it, I just can't pass by: Few facts about subtitles & vsfilter from my experience: 1) SD on big screen: looks not very good. doubling resolution - only if you have free cpu power to spare and not an option (I want madvr to do any kinds of scaling, nothing else) 2) HD on smaller screen/resolution: also can look not very good and takes more cpu power which is wasted because subs prepared for full video resolution. In case when subs overlayed with renderer we can control resolution in which subs are rendered (usually we want this to be set to "desktop"), we also can utilize black borders like on 16:10 screen with 16:9 video (not to mention with 2.35-2.4 aspect ratio) 3) we want to use a bit of postprocesing. to do so, we have to include decoder+ffdshow+vsfilter in the same graph. somehow this noticeably affects performance. sadly ffdshow subs are not perfect yet to completely replace vsfilter Last edited by Keiyakusha; 8th June 2010 at 02:24.

8th June 2010, 06:10	#3090 \| Link
namaiki Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,073	Yeah, what Hypernova wrote is what I meant, but I guess it's all preference. Keiyakusha: you're doing other filtering with ffdshow or just subtitles? Last edited by namaiki; 8th June 2010 at 06:13.

8th June 2010, 10:14	#3094 \| Link
namaiki Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,073	Then, I guess it depends on the setup. :P For me, on my ~60Hz screen, I will experience tearing if I have both of the top two options set to don't flush. Last edited by namaiki; 8th June 2010 at 10:22.

8th June 2010, 10:34	#3096 \| Link
iSeries Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 625	Yep, clearly there is no 'one size fits all' solution! With the defaults (and other combinations) I was getting more dropped frames than setting them to 'Don't flush'. Last edited by iSeries; 8th June 2010 at 10:38.

8th June 2010, 11:33	#3099 \| Link
namaiki Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,073	kk.. well I'm going to do retesting with all options with the next MadVR release anyways. Also iSeries, what were your system specs again, and do you get any dropped frames with the OSD turned off? For me, I get plenty of drops/stutter with the OSD turned on, but it is close to perfect with the OSD turned off. Last edited by namaiki; 8th June 2010 at 11:50.

8th June 2010, 00:39	#3081 \| Link
Mark_A_W 3 eyed CRT supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Or-strayl-ya Posts: 563	I don't understand all this subtitle quality talk. I'm running VS Filter, and the Avatar yellow subs (bluray converted to mkv), were perfect. Subs work fine, they look the same as the original bluray. Can someone explain the issue?

8th June 2010, 06:05	#3089 \| Link
Hypernova Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 293	I think namaiki mean that if subtitle is scaled independently from the picture, it would sometimes look too sharp compare to the pircture. eg. If you have a SD content, but set the subtitle texture size to, say, 1080p, the sub will stand out from the picture. Personally I prefer it that way though. Subtitle is crucial in my anime watching, so it's ok for me that it's popping out.

8th June 2010, 10:01	#3093 \| Link
iSeries Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 625	@ namaiki - I have all options set to 'Don't flush' and I have no tearing with Aero OFF. This is with my TV at 23.976hz and playback of 23.976fps material.

8th June 2010, 10:33	#3095 \| Link
namaiki Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,073	So, does anyone experience any adverse effects with the top two to flush? or the top to flush loop?

8th June 2010, 11:24	#3098 \| Link
iSeries Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 625	I've tested over and over. For example earlier today with the defaults and 30 mins of 'The Dark Knight' I got 8 dropped frames (obviously I reset the stats after playback) and I noticed every single one (no pausing or seeking). With all set to 'Don't flush' I got 0 dropped frames. I've tested and retested both this and the defaults with other movies. In fact, I played an hour of 'Up In The Air' last night and got 0 drops with 'Don't flush'.

8th June 2010, 11:52	#3100 \| Link
iSeries Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 625	Win 7 32bit, ATI 4550 (latest CCC), Aero off, with my TV as the secondary monitor. It was after watching with the defaults (and OSD off) that prompted me to do the testing, as normally I'm a 'defaults' kind of guy Last edited by iSeries; 8th June 2010 at 11:55.