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Old 2nd June 2009, 18:56   #3081  |  Link
mhammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
It certainly shouldn't, since the source of the AVS file should be invisible to the encoder... but stranger things have happened I guess.

Can you explain exactly what the "24p problem" really is? No playback at all?
The 24p problem is that rips done with BD-RB will not work in 24p mode on Panasonic players while Ripbot encodes work (even with same x264 settings as BD-RB).

Turbojet and i did some testing to find a working solution.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 19:59   #3082  |  Link
turbojet
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Originally Posted by mhammer View Post
Did the test, but doesn´t work. Same probs with 24p as with BD-RB output.

Did my testings with a bd-rw 25 and tsmuxer avc and blu-ray output.
I noticed that Ripbot does a complete demux and creates a mkv with the videostream. Bd-RB use the original m2ts stream for video-encodeing, maybe this is were we get probs.
A few things that could be tried if you haven't already, output to 264 and add --aud so:

Code:
x264.exe --crf 30 --ref 1 --me dia --subme 1 --partitions none --threads auto --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "<output.264>" "<input>" --nal-hrd
another thing you could try is using the avs as video input, demuxed audio as audio input in ripbot264 and see if the stream works with 24p. Another thing that RipBot264 uses that BD-RB doesn't is long GOP's aka --keyint 250 --min keyint 25 but that's on the BD-RB request list.

Jdobbs: all the changes in the changelog look good and even the undocumented sub fix except with strict AVCHD output can it delete the CERTIFICATE folder in the next version?

Also out of curiosity do you have any plans on what you plan to tackle next? Two big topics that seem to affect every encode are sizing and encoder related things (keep movie but encode extras, long gop, 1 pass crf using quality settings set, display x264 eta, x64 x264 (lower priority?))

Last edited by turbojet; 2nd June 2009 at 20:19.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 21:11   #3083  |  Link
jdobbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmih
However I wonder what bd-rb does if it sees DTS-HD XLL and the don't convert DTS to AC3 flag?
It uses the down-to-dts flag in TSMUXER and uses the output directly in the remux.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 21:14   #3084  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by turbojet
Jdobbs: all the changes in the changelog look good and even the undocumented sub fix except with strict AVCHD output can it delete the CERTIFICATE folder in the next version?
Yes. In fact I had added the code to remove it, and then after the fact realized that I was looking for "\BDMV\CERTIFICATE" instead of "\CERTIFICATE'... duh. Not going to find a lot of those. I've fixed it.

Quote:
Also out of curiosity do you have any plans on what you plan to tackle next? Two big topics that seem to affect every encode are sizing and encoder related things (keep movie but encode extras, long gop, 1 pass crf using quality settings set, display x264 eta, x64 x264 (lower priority?))
I'll probably do a little work on the sizing this weekend. I'm going to create a group of different kinds of audio with varying rates and see what individual overhead percentages I get. Currently I've been using a single adjustment factor for the entire stream, and I think that's the root of the inaccuracy. It seems to be amplified by the inclusion of HD audio now.

Don't know what you mean by "long gop" -- BD has a limited frequency of key frames, even though my Sony seems to not care. One pass CRF with prediction is actually already written, but it was so inaccurate I disabled it. I'll get back to that soon enough.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 2nd June 2009 at 21:22.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 21:51   #3085  |  Link
turbojet
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
Yes. In fact I had added the code to remove it, and then after the fact realized that I was looking for "\BDMV\CERTIFICATE" instead of "\CERTIFICATE'... duh. Not going to find a lot of those. I've fixed it.
I'm not sure it will have any effect on anything but probably safer to remove it.

Quote:
I'll probably do a little work on the sizing this weekend. I'm going to create a group of different kinds of audio with varying rates and see what individual overhead percentages I get. Currently I've been using a single adjustment factor for the entire stream, and I think that's the root of the inaccuracy. It seems to be amplified by the inclusion of HD audio now.
Oh ok did you get RipBot264's calculation and can make sense of it? If so that's have the job done, although mutliple audio streams and HD audio which I've heard is inconsistent because of vbr.

Quote:
Don't know what you mean by "long gop" -- BD has a limited frequency of key frames, even though my Sony seems to not care. One pass CRF with prediction is actually already written, but it was so inaccurate I disabled it. I'll get back to that soon enough.
Long GOP meaning 10 second max distance between keyframes as opposed to the current 1 second. This can really improve the effeciency without affecting the playability, at least none have been reported. However it could skew chapter points quite a bit but there is a solution for that too, x264's --qp-file. I posted 2 clips here that are very affected by the short gop's, while it's kind of uncommon it goes to show how detremental the short GOP's can be.

1 pass crf o the whole movie? I forgot about that one but I remember seeing it discussed somewhere but that sounds good as well. But what I meant by the 1 pass CRF using the quality settings was for extras. For example there would be under mode menu a '1 pass encode for extras' that uses QUICK_CRF set and the quality options set, then a sub option be 'quicker encode' to use what quicker encodes does now. Also with crf there is no need for the current --pass --stats x264 calls, it writes a stats that isn't used which may hurt performance a little bit.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:01   #3086  |  Link
jdobbs
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Long GOP meaning 10 second max distance between keyframes as opposed to the current 1 second. This can really improve the effeciency without affecting the playability, at least none have been reported.
If will also violate the BD standard. Can't do it.

Quote:
Also with crf there is no need for the current --pass --stats x264 calls, it writes a stats that isn't used which may hurt performance a little bit.
The pass/stats info is there for a reason. The performance impact is virtually nonexistent... but if you keep the stats, you can use them to do a second pass and hit the mark exactly when you experience an oversize (common in CRF encodes).
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Last edited by jdobbs; 2nd June 2009 at 22:03.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:05   #3087  |  Link
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It's no more of a violation then 30p and that's been in since day one, but it's ok, nevermind.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:08   #3088  |  Link
jdobbs
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It's no more of a violation then 30p and that's been in since day one, but it's ok, nevermind.
A standard is a standard. Just because it works for one person doesn't mean it won't fail for 100 others. Sorry, but I'm married to that one.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:12   #3089  |  Link
turbojet
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What if it's the thing that allows RipBot264 encodes to play with 24p enabled?

It is a good possibility but need to wait on tests. Long gop's have been well tested with RipBot264 over the past year or so without any issues, so it's nothing new. Why not an ini only setting for us power users?
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:16   #3090  |  Link
jdobbs
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
What if it's the thing that allows RipBot264 encodes to play with 24p enabled?

It is a good possibility but need to wait on tests. Long gop's have been well tested with RipBot264 over the past year or so without any issues, so it's nothing new. Why not an ini only setting for us power users?
Then that's an issue for Panasonic to correct. Which in truth is probably something that needs to be done either way.

Long GOPs aren't Blu-Ray -- they are something else, no matter how well tested they are. You certainly won't find them on commercial BDs (if so, I'd be surprised), and a decent authoring package shouldn't accept them. I think its a bad idea.
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Last edited by jdobbs; 2nd June 2009 at 22:20.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:24   #3091  |  Link
turbojet
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
Than that's an issue for Panasonic to correct. Which in truth is probably a fact either way.
True but it's not something we can control.

Quote:
Long GOPs aren't Blu-Ray -- they are something else, no matter how well tested they are. You certainly won't find them on commercial BDs, and a decent authoring package won't accept them. Bad idea.
True again but nor will you find 30p or non-sliced H.264 on retail BD and programs like scenarist don't allow either.

30p I think is only detrimental to the video stream but people will have their own opinions on that one. As some don't notice the non-fluid motion achieved by deinterlacing.

Sliced H.264 x264 doesn't support so nothing can be done about that, I'm not sure what it is but I've read it can hurt efficiency.

Long GOP can do nothing but benefit the video stream as long as the encoder makes the right decision every time, which x264 seems to do. In some cases in a huge way, those 2 clips I linked to are good examples of this.

While I'd like to see an AVCHD/BD standard that has to be followed so we know what has to be done, it doesn't exist. In it's current state almost everything BD-RB does breaks the standard. A few examples: You shouldn't be able to play anything but AC3/LPCM AVCHD from DVD, full backups in their current state should only play from BD, in order to play from DVD they'd need their menu commands changed to be like that of AVCHD menus which will lose some advanced functionality, which may be a possibility some day, who knows.

Last edited by turbojet; 2nd June 2009 at 22:44.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 22:57   #3092  |  Link
drmih
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Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
It might, I've seen stranger things happen with BD5/9 playback. IIWY I'd try it with DVD5 RW though. Try goBD first and if it doesn't help try AVCHD patcher they do a little different things.
OK neither of the options made any difference, so whatever is upsetting the Sony's on full backups on Universal titles burnt to a bd-9 is still unknown.

Of the discs I have done, when played on a ps3 the two which were patched tried to play and then errored. The bd-9 one appeared as a data disc but when the main movie stream was played it did have the audio okay, so that could handle the audio if not the menus.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 23:01   #3093  |  Link
turbojet
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OK neither of the options made any difference, so whatever is upsetting the Sony's on full backups on Universal titles burnt to a bd-9 is still unknown.

Of the discs I have done, when played on a ps3 the two which were patched tried to play and then errored. The bd-9 one appeared as a data disc but when the main movie stream was played it did have the audio okay, so that could handle the audio if not the menus.
Can you upload the bdmv files, CLIPINF and PLAYLIST directories?

Also are both video streams being kept in the output?
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Old 2nd June 2009, 23:09   #3094  |  Link
drmih
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Can you upload the bdmv files, CLIPINF and PLAYLIST directories?

Also are both video streams being kept in the output?
These are from the first attempt at a bd-9 full disc with ac3 sound.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/zxomlj

This plays fine on a pc and the movie stream 0220.m2ts is okay on a ps3. On a Sony 550 the audio isn't available on the movie and the display information shows no audio and the audio button has no effect. If the files are burnt to a bd-25 then that plays fine.
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Old 2nd June 2009, 23:38   #3095  |  Link
turbojet
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Can you try this
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Old 2nd June 2009, 23:46   #3096  |  Link
drmih
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Thanks - it'll be tomorrow now as I'm off to bed!
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Old 3rd June 2009, 00:26   #3097  |  Link
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I have no trouble playing BD-RB movie only backups burned to BD-5 with 24p on my Sony BDP-BX1. So I have to agree with jdobbs that this does seem to be an issue that Panasonic needs to correct. At some point, a standard has to be accepted. I don't believe jdobbs should have to spend so much time trying to make adjustments for a mfg.'s player to allow play back of an AVCHD movie only to DVD media. I commend him for trying! If BD-25 works for these players, then that may be the solution. If the goal is to be able to make backups to BD-5 or BD-9, then a more compliant player should be mandatory. Buyer be ware! Test your discs before making a purchase.
We all know you have to meet certain cpu, video card, etc.. requirements just to play back Blueray discs on a computer, so we have to be as prudent with our standalones as well!
If RipBot works, why not just use that program?
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Old 3rd June 2009, 00:50   #3098  |  Link
turbojet
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mhammer: Could you try muxing an audio track with these 2 video streams?

It's the last things I can think of as differences between RipBot264 and BD-RB output.

Last edited by turbojet; 3rd June 2009 at 06:26.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 07:00   #3099  |  Link
drmih
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Can you try this
That just hangs the player when you try and select the main movie.
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Old 3rd June 2009, 11:42   #3100  |  Link
wiggle
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Yesterday I was encoding Ghost Town. I stripped all other languages other than English to maintain the best bitrate. Original size: 27,4 GB.
After the encode was down I checked the new size, and it was 21,4 GB. Quite a waste of space, I ended up re-adding the stripped languages, as I had space left anyway.
I checked the log, and noticed the target rate was exactly 25.000. I browsed through some x264 settings, and came up that this probably is because of a max_rate setting, set to 25000?
I'ld really like it to be possible to change this setting, whether it is in the program or in the config file. Thanks in advance.
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