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Old 25th January 2011, 15:47   #41  |  Link
yetanotherid
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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Well, this is something I expected.
Not only that you contradict a lot of people from 2 countries, you still insist in your theories. I think anyone has by now realised the quality of the advices you give. Small sample size, short interval, yet grandiose conclusions, oh no, sorry, axioms.
Well I can't say I'd expect you to question the anecdotal evidence you found in a few forum posts via Google either. A lot of people from two countries?? At least I'm posting from experience, not quoting forum posts which probably aren't based on anything more than the same anecdotal evidence you're offering. And I use the word "evidence" quite generously. You'd be a funny fella if you weren't kind of sad.

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Typically, around the time Groucho2004 burned the DVD whose scan was posted, the manufacturers liked to advertise a sort of 50 years for the lifespan..... yada, yada, yada......
Verbatim still offer a Lifetime warranty. What's any of that got do with the topic of whether the quality has dropped? Does it prove anything either way or are you still finding new ways to be irrelevant?

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Should a DVDR be recognised and read out during the Verify phase of the writing procedure, there are chances that it would withstand at least 1 year (of course, if correctly handled). Top disks of 2010 may last up to 10 years. 50 or 100 years of storage are a dream.
And you've got the evidence to back that up where?? The Ghitulescu handbook of opinionated advice?

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It is also a difference between a DVD out of specs and an unreadable (or partially readable) disk. An out-of-specs disk can be read back with great chances, as it needs 1664 PI before the error correction be completely screwed up, whereas the standard prescribes here only 280. So with the other parameters. Lots of disk having PO over 4 are perfectly readable. Changing the reader (using maybe an LG DVDburner) could make an unreadable disk readable.
Did you pretend to yourself any of that has anything to do with the topic as you wrote it, or have you even given up trying to fool yourself? Does the highlighting help you to pretend it's relevant, because it's not fooling me.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my last two questions. What's the age of my burner got to do with the topic of media quality and is your claim I'm using media from 2004 based in reality at all? You seem to have a habit of avoiding direct questions. Funny about that.....

And of course there's one indisputable fact which you conveniently keep ignoring. You asked me to post burn quality tests to show you the quality of burns I'm achieving today, which I did, and you've only been able to offer examples which show I'm getting the same results (or better) today that you were getting two years ago.... no doubt taken from your TY "premium collection". How have the results you posted achieved anything other than to help prove my point?
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:20   #42  |  Link
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At least I'm posting from experience, not quoting forum posts which probably aren't based on anything more than the same anecdotal evidence you're offering.
You did not post any on-topic informations, you just posted a scan of a 6 months old medium and another scan of an one day old medium. Then another 2 scans of one day media (now they are older ).

I posted a poll. Not me, but several dozens of people voted 42% that the quality of Verbatim decreased. That's impressive, isn't it?

I also posted some findings from fora I'm member. Of course, they are individual samples in a sea of possible alternatives. Yet the results for 3 years show a visible decrease in quality.

Whether google was helpful or not doesn't change the main facts. Google just intermediates. Older DVDs had a better quality than todays' ones, and their reliability over time decreases in a slower pace than those of today. For CDs the things are even clearer, because the CD is almost dead. In max. 5 years the DVD will arrive at the same point where the CD stands today. And I'll compare the scans of (6+5 years old DVDs with those of only 5).

PS: this is not your thread, I don't have to answer your questions.
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:22   #43  |  Link
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Geez, you guys have a lot of time.
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:23   #44  |  Link
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Yeah, you're right, I don't know why I'm spending my time with someone that doesn't deserve it.

maybe because I don't want that the OP leave this forum with false info.
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:29   #45  |  Link
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I don't want that the OP leave this forum with false info.
Hehe, I'm sure the OP is entirely confused and left this thread a long time ago scared shitless.
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:34   #46  |  Link
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I'm afraid there are no longer good DVDRs nowadays... The DVD technology is close to its end, no manufacturers spend time and energy for producing quality items ... yes, not even Verbatim.
Your arguments lost all credibility right up-front, when you made these ridiculous statements.
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Old 25th January 2011, 16:41   #47  |  Link
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Except for stockpiled Verbatims MIT, all the verbatims sold in Germany are now made in China and India. There were around 2008 also some batches from EUA (Emirates).
And the DVD technology is already on its decline, the giants embarked in the BD boat and left the manufacturing to third countries.
Maybe in the States is different ......
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Old 25th January 2011, 20:06   #48  |  Link
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You did not post any on-topic informations, you just posted a scan of a 6 months old medium and another scan of an one day old medium. Then another 2 scans of one day media (now they are older ).
I didn't post any on-topic information? What have I been discussing, how to renovate the kitchen? I've given detailed information as to how much burning I do and the results I get when using different types of Verbatim discs, which is a lot more than the couple of screenshots you've offered along with a couple of amusing stories you found via Google. I've not posted any on-topic information? Maybe you should take your medication closer to the times you post?

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I posted a poll. Not me, but several dozens of people voted 42% that the quality of Verbatim decreased. That's impressive, isn't it?
Yeah, very impressive. A poll in which 69 people out of the millions with an internet connection responded. And not even all of them thought Verbatim's quality had dropped. Only 29 of them agreed it had, 14 said it hadn't changed (I guess they're wrong are they?) while the remaining 26 didn't know what day it was. That's about as statistically meaningless as a poll can get, and if you believe otherwise there's something wrong with your brain.
Oh, and unless I'm mistaken that poll's over two years old anyway, so in two years only 69 people have thought it was worth the effort to respond. Maybe it'd be more statistically accurate as a poll on the percentage of forum members dumb enough to respond to forum polls?

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I also posted some findings from fora I'm member. Of course, they are individual samples in a sea of possible alternatives. Yet the results for 3 years show a visible decrease in quality.
Yeah.... According to a couple of anecdotal stories you found.....

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Whether google was helpful or not doesn't change the main facts. Google just intermediates. Older DVDs had a better quality than todays' ones......
So why are my burns of today as good as your "premium collection" burns of two years ago????

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and their reliability over time decreases in a slower pace than those of today. For CDs the things are even clearer, because the CD is almost dead. In max. 5 years the DVD will arrive at the same point where the CD stands today. And I'll compare the scans of (6+5 years old DVDs with those of only 5).
So what if the CDs dead? How does that prove the various manufacturer's sent their quality control workers off on vacation? You're just making stuff up now. It'd make far more sense to argue that the manufacturing process is mature and the quality consistent by now, than it would to argue quality control has been thrown to the wind just because manufacturer's also have a newer type of disc to produce.

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PS: this is not your thread, I don't have to answer your questions.
No you don't. Not that "who's thread" it might be makes any difference. Either you're willing to respond to others the way you expect them to respond to you when you ask questions, or you're a hypocrite as well as opinionated.
I'll take it then that your statement I'm using media from 2004 was just a load of rubbish, and as you're happy to call me ignorant etc. when I post something you think is wrong, I'll also conclude you don't have enough character to post like a grown up.

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Yeah, you're right, I don't know why I'm spending my time with someone that doesn't deserve it.
maybe because I don't want that the OP leave this forum with false info.
Maybe it's because you're a know-it-all who can't stand being disagreed with. Hence all the name calling you continually resort to.

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Except for stockpiled Verbatims MIT, all the verbatims sold in Germany are now made in China and India. There were around 2008 also some batches from EUA (Emirates).
And the DVD technology is already on its decline, the giants embarked in the BD boat and left the manufacturing to third countries.
Maybe in the States is different ......
And once again, repeating what we already know does nothing to prove the quality of media being produced has dropped as a result, especially when it comes to a company like Verbatim who only use their own dye on their own discs.

So why is it I'm producing burns of the same quality today that you were getting two years ago, as long of course, you took the samples from you're "premium collection"? How about some quality tests of two year old burns which didn't come from your "premium collection"?
Oh that's right, it's not my thread so you don't have to reply like a grown up.....

Last edited by yetanotherid; 25th January 2011 at 20:56.
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Old 25th January 2011, 20:11   #49  |  Link
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Your arguments lost all credibility right up-front, when you made these ridiculous statements.
Exactly.... If DVD burning isn't currently at it's peak.... or not far from it.... I'll happily start imagining my good quality burns aren't that good after all, despite what the quality tests might say.....
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Old 3rd February 2011, 13:29   #50  |  Link
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So why is it I'm producing burns of the same quality today that you were getting two years ago, as long of course, you took the samples from you're "premium collection"? How about some quality tests of two year old burns which didn't come from your "premium collection"?
I guess we'll never know.....

While doom9 was having a bit of a holiday however, I had an interesting burning experience which made me think of this thread, so I thought I'd discuss it here.

A couple of days ago I had an above average burning day. For the entire day pretty much every burn was above average in quality. So either Verbatim have been watching this thread and lifted their quality control in the last week, all of my burners were in an above average mood, it's just co-incidence, or something else was allowing the burners to burn well.

The only variable I can think of which may have factored in was the weather. It was hot. A really hot, dry heat. 40+ degrees Celsius. It wasn't hot in the room where my computers were located as I'd had the air conditioner on all day, so it was warm at best and I'd assume the air was very dry. Does humidity effect the quality of burns? It's the only variable I can think of.

As an example of what I mean I've posted some screen shots. These burns were typical for the day (there was the odd "throw away" as usual) and these are printable discs, which in my experience usually lowers the quality a little, and most would have come from the same "batch" as my previous screenshots, if not from the same spindle.
Or maybe all of my burners (it wasn't just one of them having a good day) were just in a better mood than usual for some reason.....











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Old 5th February 2011, 17:15   #51  |  Link
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Well.... I guess this thread has come to and end but I thought I'd add I think I've eliminated humidity as effecting burn quality. Yesterday a rain storm pretty much flooded Melbourne, yet last night in the humid air I was still producing better quality burns than normal (although admittedly I only burned about four DVDs).

So I guess the "good burn quality" days and the "average burn quality" days will continue to remain a mystery. The only theory I have left for the continued high quality burns is a week of burning lots of DVDs to recover all my hard drive space must have blown the dust out of the drives as I burned....
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Old 5th February 2011, 20:11   #52  |  Link
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Anyone living on this planet and not being a complete idiot could easily notice a degradation in the build quality of the burners. As people continuously ask for cheaper things, the manufacturers use premium materials only for premium products or for start-of-life products (otherwise the new technology they want to launch on the market would be stilborn). As the prices drop, more and more B-products would be classified and sold as A, even defective products were sold (so the public would constitute the QC department).

I still have and use first generations DVD-burners (can one spell 1x?) and yes I own authoring burners and media, too, but I have also other generations, including BD burners. Medium quality media (like MCC from Verbatim or INFOMEDIAR or MBI) are burned by a 1x Matsushita at 1x at max 50 PI and extremely few PO. Similar values are obtained (higher PO though) with various LGs and even Pioneers, only the Plextors could burn them better. MBI and INFOMEDIAR were not existent at the time when the burner was in production, and I think that neither MCC. So a burner of 2000, relying on its default strategy would burn better than a 2008-2009 burner (which assumingly has been tested with new media).

Coming back to media:
Unlike most other magazines, that present the tests so that the sponsor would eventually win, there is a German magazine that also contain independent tests (along with the paid ones ). Once a year there are burning tests with the current burners and media. The results are assessed using professional tools, like AudioDev or CAT, while the tests are performed using the standards.

What confers quality to a DVD? Many issues, wherein the PI/PO is just only one item. Strangely enough, the quality of the DVD is given overwhelmingly by the glue - if the margins are not correctly sealed, water would eventually get in and destroy both the dye and the reflector (aluminium). Secondly in importance is the hard-coating, if any. The third most important factor is the jitter. Finally the PI/PO values. Very important was the even distribution of the dye, whis was tested very late, as at the beginning it wasn't needed. Now it is. The jitter is mainly caused by the burner.

Now, please have a look to a 6 years old DVDR and then to a brand new one. And draw your conclusions.
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Old 6th February 2011, 20:08   #53  |  Link
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Anyone living on this planet and not being a complete idiot could easily notice a degradation in the build quality of the burners.
True. Often I have to pry open the trays before using two of my Pioneer burners, but they still burn really well.
Did you by any chance post in the wrong thread? The topic under discussion is "Typical dvd media lifespan"

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I still have and use first generations DVD-burners (can one spell 1x?)
I prefer to sit outside and watch the grass grow myself.

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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
Medium quality media (like MCC from Verbatim or INFOMEDIAR or MBI) are burned by a 1x Matsushita at 1x at max 50 PI and extremely few PO. Similar values are obtained (higher PO though) with various LGs and even Pioneers, only the Plextors could burn them better. MBI and INFOMEDIAR were not existent at the time when the burner was in production, and I think that neither MCC. So a burner of 2000, relying on its default strategy would burn better than a 2008-2009 burner (which assumingly has been tested with new media).
Sounds like a lot of generalisation without any evidence to me.
So you're telling me that a 1x burner built in 2000 is going to burn 16x media to a higher quality than a more recent burner?
I'll eagerly await screen shots of your burn quality tests after burning with your 1x burners. Could you burn a couple of fresh ones and post the quality results here?
You've never looked at the fine print on some high-speed (DVD16x) media and read the qualification that it's only suitable for use in a high speed burner? Or maybe they just don't print it any more, assuming not too many people really like to watch the grass grow.

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Unlike most other magazines, that present the tests so that the sponsor would eventually win, there is a German magazine that also contain independent tests (along with the paid ones ). Once a year there are burning tests with the current burners and media. The results are assessed using professional tools, like AudioDev or CAT, while the tests are performed using the standards.
AND????

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What confers quality to a DVD? Many issues, wherein the PI/PO is just only one item. Strangely enough, the quality of the DVD is given overwhelmingly by the glue - if the margins are not correctly sealed, water would eventually get in and destroy both the dye and the reflector (aluminium). Secondly in importance is the hard-coating, if any. The third most important factor is the jitter. Finally the PI/PO values. Very important was the even distribution of the dye, whis was tested very late, as at the beginning it wasn't needed. Now it is. The jitter is mainly caused by the burner.
Wouldn't it have saved you some typing, simply explaining why my last burns are better quality than your "premium collection" burns of yesteryear, and how it shows the quality of media has dropped?? Well, maybe not.....

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Now, please have a look to a 6 years old DVDR and then to a brand new one. And draw your conclusions.
I can't. All my discs of that age were burned using either an older, but surprisingly lower quality burner than the ones I use today (despite costing up to 10x more) or they were burned onto lower quality (but surprisingly still older) discs than the ones I use today. As a result, I've gradually re-burned them all using Verbatim discs and Pioneer burners.... well at least the ones which were still readable... and thrown the old ones away. So unfortunately, I've got to rely on pesky stuff like the evidence acquired through burn quality tests. I'll have to leave deducing the burn quality and predicting the longevity of the disc through the science of visual inspections up to you.
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Old 6th February 2011, 20:39   #54  |  Link
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I can't. All my discs of that age were burned using either an older, but surprisingly lower quality burner than the ones I use today (despite costing up to 10x more) or they were burned onto lower quality (but surprisingly still older) discs than the ones I use today. As a result, I've gradually re-burned them all using Verbatim discs and Pioneer burners.... well at least the ones which were still readable... and thrown the old ones away. So unfortunately, I've got to rely on pesky stuff like the evidence acquired through burn quality tests. I'll have to leave deducing the burn quality and predicting the longevity of the disc through the science of visual inspections up to you.
So the typical lifespan of your DVDRs do not lapse more than few months?
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Old 7th February 2011, 01:10   #55  |  Link
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So the typical lifespan of your DVDRs do not lapse more than few months?
So why is it I'm producing burns of the same quality today that you were getting two years ago, as long of course, you took the samples from you're "premium collection"? How about some quality tests of two year old burns which didn't come from your "premium collection"?
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Old 7th February 2011, 01:15   #56  |  Link
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So the typical lifespan of your DVDRs do not lapse more than few months?
I took a poll a couple of years ago. 69 people have responded so far. 29 thought my DVDs only last a couple of months, 14 thought they last for 200 years, and 26 thought DVDs were CDs with pictures.
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Old 7th February 2011, 01:24   #57  |  Link
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Now, please have a look to a 6 years old DVDR and then to a brand new one. And draw your conclusions.
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I can't. All my discs of that age were burned using either an older, but surprisingly lower quality burner than the ones I use today.....
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So the typical lifespan of your DVDRs do not lapse more than few months?
Let me know when you're wanting to continue the discussion like a grown up.
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Old 7th February 2011, 09:46   #58  |  Link
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If one discards a medium - well in all languages I know, that is lifespan. End of cycle, for a product. The owner thought it's useless. Garbage can (recycle bin for eco countries).
At least I have 6 or 7 years old DVDR media. So I can comment on their characteristics. You cannot, as you discarded the "old" media ... but you still contradict people based on short term data (are you one of the 29, or maybe one of the 14 -> http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...5&postcount=56). Accelerated ageing tests are the base for the marketing claims and from time to time such tests are performed at independent laboratories. I never experienced myself a failing DVDR due to ageing, but also I don't buy ANY DVDR, like those from gasstations or groceries, and definitely I don't burn them at 16x or even at 22x.

When I installed Ubuntu, some 2-3 years ago, the installation routine had a bug (like the windows syndrome, the installation procedure can lock on minimal specs PCs due to lack of resources), yet the first 3 answers in the FAQ were: 1. burn at less than 8x, 2. burn at less than 8x and 3. burn at less than 8x , and of course the 4th was Use Verify after burning. Wow, so it appears that people got coasters right from the burner. And I mean the bulk of the population, not isolated cases. And that was 2008 or 2009. Before burnproof technologies appeared, the only coasters were produced by buffer-underrun issues. Wasn't that a decrease in quality?
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Old 7th February 2011, 11:11   #59  |  Link
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If one discards a medium - well in all languages I know, that is lifespan. End of cycle, for a product. The owner thought it's useless. Garbage can (recycle bin for eco countries).
Really? I never would have guessed.

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At least I have 6 or 7 years old DVDR media. So I can comment on their characteristics. You cannot, as you discarded the "old" media ...
And I explained why. Something which you've ignored as it obviously doesn't suit your confabulation.
It's just a pity you're not willing to post burn quality tests of your six year old media so others can comment on the quality too.

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but you still contradict people based on short term data
While you're contradicting people based on forum heresay and nothing else, while you also continue to avoid answering direct questions or posting the burn test results as requested. We've long past the point of me taking you seriously and we're in purely entertainment territory now.

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Accelerated ageing tests are the base for the marketing claims and from time to time such tests are performed at independent laboratories. I never experienced myself a failing DVDR due to ageing, but also I don't buy ANY DVDR, like those from gasstations or groceries, and definitely I don't burn them at 16x or even at 22x.
So you're telling me you've no evidence, based on your own collection of burned discs, to show they don't age as well as they used to as you're claiming? Which side of the debate are you on?
I can only assume a "boast" that you don't burn at 16x or 22x is one based on ignorance and nothing to do with burn quality, given you didn't mention it. I run a quality test on every disc I intend to keep and I've experimented with different speeds. On average my older burners burn best at 12x while the newer burners burn best at 16x. The newer Pioneer does extremely well at 20x but anything over the 4GB mark can be a bit hit and miss, so I keep it to 16x.

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When I installed Ubuntu, some 2-3 years ago, the installation routine had a bug (like the windows syndrome, the installation procedure can lock on minimal specs PCs due to lack of resources), yet the first 3 answers in the FAQ were: 1. burn at less than 8x, 2. burn at less than 8x and 3. burn at less than 8x , and of course the 4th was Use Verify after burning.
Wow, so it appears that people got coasters right from the burner. And I mean the bulk of the population, not isolated cases.
At least you made me laugh. The bulk of the population?? I think you meant the bulk of people with installation problems.
Aside from the fact the FAQ could have been written by a dinosaur with a 4x burner anyway, it's statistically meaningless. It just means the majority of people having installation problems may have been having them due to bad burns. It does nothing to indicate what percentage of people installing Ubuntu who were actually having problems. It might have only been 5% and the majority of them may have been having problems due to using poor quality media. The majority of people I know still buy cheap blanks, but the quality they achieve or the burn speeds they need to use is irrelevant to me and a discussion on Verbatim's disc quality.
Why do you keep insisting on posting theories you've developed along with such flimsy evidence to support it while continuing to ignore the quality of the burns I posted? You're not imagining them, they're real. That's the burn quality I'm getting from Verbatim discs today. How do you explain it?

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And that was 2008 or 2009. Before burnproof technologies appeared, the only coasters were produced by buffer-underrun issues. Wasn't that a decrease in quality?
Really? How long did you use your old 1x burner? Burnproof technologies have been around for a while.
And of course your burn speed theories seem to assume the disc is being burned at 8x or 16x etc rather than the speed at which it's being burned. Chances are a 20x burner will only burn a small fraction of the disc at that speed, the rest of the time it's a 16x burn. And there's nothing to say how fast the majority of the disc is being burned just because you selected a particular speed. In fact much of the time the chosen speed is nothing more than the maximum speed.
One of my 12x burners takes about 10 seconds less to burn a disc than another takes to burn it at 16x (for example) as it's ramped up to 12x much earlier in the burn, so in effect, the second burner is burning the majority of the disc at a slower speed despite it burning at 16x.

Nothing you've posted above, zero, zip, has any relevance to your contention that Verbatim's quality has dropped, nor does it explain why my burns of today are better quality than the two year old burns you posted, and you've not even come close to showing anything which indicated my discs won't last as long as yours, aside from some more amusing confabulation.
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Old 7th February 2011, 11:23   #60  |  Link
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Just for the entertainment value, here's a list of questions/requests you've ignored recently as the answers no doubt won't fit your confabulations.

Where's the evidence to show the top discs of today only last 10 years max?
How do you know I'm using discs manufactured in 2004?
What's the age of my burner got to do with the manufacturing quality of the discs?
How does having a newer disc to produce prove manufacturers have allowed the quality of their older products to drop?
How does the location of manufacture prove they've allowed the quality of their older products to drop?
Why is it I'm producing burns of the same quality today that you were getting two years ago, as long of course, you took the samples from you're "premium collection"?
How about some quality tests of two year old burns which didn't come from your "premium collection"?
How far from it's peak is DVD burning? How many DVDs are sold today compared to a couple of years ago?
Any real proof to show discs don't last as long as they used to?
Could you burn a couple of fresh 16x media at 1x and post the quality results here to show how much better it is at that speed?
Have you ever looked at the fine print on some high-speed (DVD16x) media and read the qualification that it's only suitable for use in a high speed burner?

They're just the ones I picked out after glancing through the current page. There's no doubt many more questions you've ignored as the answers don't suit you.
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