Resizing (Upscaling) is Removing Details?!... - Page 3

Blue_MiSfit · 16th February 2009, 11:16

Add to the fact that you're doing 1-pass VBR using x264vfw.... which isn't optimal _at all_.

Try a CRF18 encode using the CLI encoder the proper way. MeGUI or any number of GUIs can make this a simpler process

~MiSfit

Didée · 16th February 2009, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon859

He sarcastically said, "Congratulations for finding that encoding with a lossy codec may cause losses."

Indeed I was in a jolly mood when posting that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon859

especially when the x264 codec was in fact not the problem.

That's where you are wrong. The "problem" is caused mostly by the encoding process.

Basically, upscaling as such doesn't lose any detail. The end result, however, depends on lots of factors that are all correlated to each other: resolution to be encoded, source noise, sharpness/softness, codec settings, available bitrate, etc.

It seems that you don't have full grasp of this meshwork yet. Keep on, experience grows by the day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon859

But whatever, it doesn't matter. Not a big deal.

Exactly.

*.mp4 guy · 16th February 2009, 13:16

I said something similar on the first page and got completely ignored. I'm just glad Didée got through to everyone by somehow figuring out the details of this mess.

DJ Bobo · 16th February 2009, 14:16

I'm stunned to see people giving this guy help on upscaling a 4:3 DVD source to 16:9 720p!
Typhoon, what you're doing is the biggest mistake of all times! You want the perfect rip? Encode at 704x480 (by cropping the black side bars), apply a gentle temporal smoother* (eventually a light spatial smoother too) and encode at the highest bitrate you can afford.
Just make sure you specify 4:3 as aspect ratio when muxing to mkv.
Will look 1000 times better than what you're showing here and detail loss will be minimal. Make sure to enable Bicubic Resizing within MPC HC to ensure a sharp look while playback in full screen.

*something like this: TemporalSoften(2,4,8,15,2)

2Bdecided · 16th February 2009, 14:20

While I'll be impressed if it turns out that way, you can upscale anime far better than a simple bicubic resize!

Did anyone mention EEDI2 or NNEDI yet?

Cheers,
David.

DJ Bobo · 16th February 2009, 15:05

Upscale to what? He has a 4:3 source! Even Blu-ray does not support 4:3 videos at a higher resolution than 720x480.
Waste of time (and bits as Sagekilla said)

2Bdecided · 16th February 2009, 16:10

Well, YouTube does, any PC does - and there are plenty of 4x3 BluRay titles available - they are pillarboxed to 16x9.

EDIT: Here's a useful script:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=138285

Cheers,
David.

Comatose · 16th February 2009, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagekilla

If you want to upscale it to 720p without it looking like complete crap you need to do a couple of things:

The lines look really bad...

Quote:

Will look 1000 times better than what you're showing here and detail loss will be minimal. Make sure to enable Bicubic Resizing within MPC HC to ensure a sharp look while playback in full screen.

The typical anime encoder ignorance about upscaling. For some reason, they all seem to believe that upscaling manually using nnedi or eedi2 and enhancing the video to mitigate the upscaled look is a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE mistake and that you should always encode anamorphic and let the player or renderer or whatever resize it.

"It blows up the file size", they say. Well, it looks better.

DJ Bobo · 16th February 2009, 16:46

Pillarboxing huh? Well, I don't recommend it anyway, encoding upscaled videos is superfluous imho. If Bicubic is not good enough for you/him, one could always enable custom resizers and/or filters in ffdshow, no need to "hardcode" the upscaling.

Comatose · 16th February 2009, 17:11

And most people don't know how to enable those, and/or want to watch it on a PS3 or something.

Not to mention you can do much more when you aren't restricted by realtime filtering.

2Bdecided · 16th February 2009, 17:53

Come on DJ Bobo - even your own avatar benefits from better upsampling than bicubic!

See attached pic (when cleared by mods) - your avatar resized by x2.

left = nnedi2
right = bicubic

Of course, when you're backing up your own DVDs, it doesn't matter how you upscale because you can always go back to your master SD copy if you later find that you can do better.

Cheers,
David.

*.mp4 guy · 16th February 2009, 20:17

If your mind is set on upsampling, and you want advice on that, you should post a completely unprocessed sample cut directly from the .VOB.

Typhoon859 · 16th February 2009, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bobo

I'm stunned to see people giving this guy help on upscaling a 4:3 DVD source to 16:9 720p!
Typhoon, what you're doing is the biggest mistake of all times! You want the perfect rip? Encode at 704x480 (by cropping the black side bars), apply a gentle temporal smoother* (eventually a light spatial smoother too) and encode at the highest bitrate you can afford.
Just make sure you specify 4:3 as aspect ratio when muxing to mkv.
Will look 1000 times better than what you're showing here and detail loss will be minimal. Make sure to enable Bicubic Resizing within MPC HC to ensure a sharp look while playback in full screen.

*something like this: TemporalSoften(2,4,8,15,2)

It's not 4:3... Where did you get that the VOB source is 4:3? Look, I already showed a capture of an encoder who upscaled to 720p, same as me, and the result was phenomenal. The only thing that I felt was a problem was that he used too high settings for warpsharp. Otherwise, the result was great and it had none of the problems that mine had due to the resize. After I get my AVS script correct, I will post the non-upscaled encode with those settings and then the upscaled one. That's when we'll see whose right or wrong. At this point, you would appear to be right considering the mess that happened now, but, since i know it's possible for this not to happen, I will continue to try to get it right. Till then...

*If you want, I can upload the VOB which is only 47.5MB and you can try some things out for yourself and compare with that same frame. Or a different one, doesn't matter.

Typhoon859 · 16th February 2009, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

While I'll be impressed if it turns out that way, you can upscale anime far better than a simple bicubic resize!

Did anyone mention EEDI2 or NNEDI yet?

Cheers,
David.

Yes, NNEDI has been mentioned. Here's a script that was recommended for me to try, as opposed to mine.
ConvertToYV12()

Toon(0.25)
dfttest(sigma=1.6, tbsize=3)
AAA(chroma=true)
NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnRight()
aWarpSharp(24,4,0.3,1)
LimitedSharpenFaster(edgemode=1,strength=200,ss_x=1,ss_y=1)
spline36Resize(1280,720)

I'm having trouble dfttest to work because I don't know how to install FFTW. I feel slow...

DJ Bobo · 17th February 2009, 00:24

*looooooooool*
Typhoon, you wanna teach me something about DBZ????
Want me to be specific? The screenshot you posted is from the 9th movie "Bojack", 32nd minute. Do I hear jingle bells?
Go check your DGIndex infos again, you'll see that the aspect ratio is 4:3.

Typhoon859 · 17th February 2009, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bobo

*looooooooool*
Typhoon, you wanna teach me something about DBZ????
Want me to be specific? The screenshot you posted is from the 9th movie "Bojack", 32nd minute. Do I hear jingle bells?
Go check your DGIndex infos again, you'll see that the aspect ratio is 4:3.

It's not... It's 16:9... And who said anything about teaching you about DBZ?... I just said I could post the trailer VOB so that you can try encoding it if you wanted...

DJ Bobo · 17th February 2009, 00:46

Oh crap, on a second thought, you seem to have a different DVD from mine.
Here a screenshot from mine:

Yours seems to be cropped. Damn Funimation, truly! worst company ever! the "new" release got worse than the original one!

Typhoon859 · 17th February 2009, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Bobo

Oh crap, on a second thought, you seem to have a different DVD from mine.
Here a screenshot from mine:

Yours seems to be cropped. Damn Funimation, truly! worst company ever! the "new" release got worse than the original one!

Lol, that's absolutely not true. It has more footage on the sides though and the Remastered quality of these DVDs are amazing.

kemuri-_9 · 17th February 2009, 21:10

what's this source again, one of the DBZ movies?

iirc, Funimation has released the movies on Blu-ray, so why not use those to get 720p rather than upscaling to 720p from 480p?

Typhoon859 · 17th February 2009, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemuri-_9

what's this source again, one of the DBZ movies?

iirc, Funimation has released the movies on Blu-ray, so why not use those to get 720p rather than upscaling to 720p from 480p?

I don't have a Blu-Ray player drive on my computer, one, and two, they put the same exact footage on DVD as they did on Blu-Ray. The difference is, they upscaled for me. Plus, that's besides the point. The picture is just an example.

16th February 2009, 11:16	#41 \| Link
Blue_MiSfit Derek Prestegard IRL Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,989	Add to the fact that you're doing 1-pass VBR using x264vfw.... which isn't optimal _at all_. Try a CRF18 encode using the CLI encoder the proper way. MeGUI or any number of GUIs can make this a simpler process ~MiSfit __________________ These are all my personal statements, not those of my employer :)

16th February 2009, 14:16	#44 \| Link
DJ Bobo Encoding Dinosaur! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 1,668	I'm stunned to see people giving this guy help on upscaling a 4:3 DVD source to 16:9 720p! Typhoon, what you're doing is the biggest mistake of all times! You want the perfect rip? Encode at 704x480 (by cropping the black side bars), apply a gentle temporal smoother* (eventually a light spatial smoother too) and encode at the highest bitrate you can afford. Just make sure you specify 4:3 as aspect ratio when muxing to mkv. Will look 1000 times better than what you're showing here and detail loss will be minimal. Make sure to enable Bicubic Resizing within MPC HC to ensure a sharp look while playback in full screen. something like this: TemporalSoften(2,4,8,15,2) Last edited by DJ Bobo; 16th February 2009 at 14:35.*

16th February 2009, 16:10	#47 \| Link
2Bdecided Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,673	Well, YouTube does, any PC does - and there are plenty of 4x3 BluRay titles available - they are pillarboxed to 16x9. EDIT: Here's a useful script: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=138285 Cheers, David. Last edited by 2Bdecided; 16th February 2009 at 16:33.

16th February 2009, 17:53	#51 \| Link
2Bdecided Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,673	Come on DJ Bobo - even your own avatar benefits from better upsampling than bicubic! See attached pic (when cleared by mods) - your avatar resized by x2. left = nnedi2 right = bicubic Of course, when you're backing up your own DVDs, it doesn't matter how you upscale because you can always go back to your master SD copy if you later find that you can do better. Cheers, David. Attached Images

17th February 2009, 21:10	#59 \| Link
kemuri-_9 Compiling Encoder Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,348	what's this source again, one of the DBZ movies? iirc, Funimation has released the movies on Blu-ray, so why not use those to get 720p rather than upscaling to 720p from 480p? __________________ custom x264 builds & patches \| F@H \| My Specs

16th February 2009, 13:16	#43 \| Link
*.mp4 guy Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,348	I said something similar on the first page and got completely ignored. I'm just glad Didée got through to everyone by somehow figuring out the details of this mess.

16th February 2009, 14:20	#45 \| Link
2Bdecided Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,673	While I'll be impressed if it turns out that way, you can upscale anime far better than a simple bicubic resize! Did anyone mention EEDI2 or NNEDI yet? Cheers, David.

16th February 2009, 15:05	#46 \| Link
DJ Bobo Encoding Dinosaur! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 1,668	Upscale to what? He has a 4:3 source! Even Blu-ray does not support 4:3 videos at a higher resolution than 720x480. Waste of time (and bits as Sagekilla said)

16th February 2009, 16:46	#49 \| Link
DJ Bobo Encoding Dinosaur! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 1,668	Pillarboxing huh? Well, I don't recommend it anyway, encoding upscaled videos is superfluous imho. If Bicubic is not good enough for you/him, one could always enable custom resizers and/or filters in ffdshow, no need to "hardcode" the upscaling.

16th February 2009, 17:11	#50 \| Link
Comatose Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 639	And most people don't know how to enable those, and/or want to watch it on a PS3 or something. Not to mention you can do much more when you aren't restricted by realtime filtering.

16th February 2009, 20:17	#52 \| Link
*.mp4 guy Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,348	If your mind is set on upsampling, and you want advice on that, you should post a completely unprocessed sample cut directly from the .VOB.

17th February 2009, 00:24	#55 \| Link
DJ Bobo Encoding Dinosaur! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 1,668	looooooooool Typhoon, you wanna teach me something about DBZ???? Want me to be specific? The screenshot you posted is from the 9th movie "Bojack", 32nd minute. Do I hear jingle bells? Go check your DGIndex infos again, you'll see that the aspect ratio is 4:3.

17th February 2009, 00:46	#57 \| Link
DJ Bobo Encoding Dinosaur! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 1,668	Oh crap, on a second thought, you seem to have a different DVD from mine. Here a screenshot from mine: Yours seems to be cropped. Damn Funimation, truly! worst company ever! the "new" release got worse than the original one!