Resizing (Upscaling) is Removing Details?!...

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 03:35

At first, when I noticed the problem by comparing it to the original, I thought it was one of my grain/noise removing/reducing filters. I went through all of them and the problem didn't seem to go away. I stripped it down to just the 720p resize that I had and the problem was still there.

After that, I tried it with just the mpeg2stream identifying line and the problem was gone. I then tried the Bicubic resize that VirtualDubMod has and the problem wasn't as prominent. I don't really understand how the resizing affects anything at all but I captured frames for comparison. In the pictures, notice the details on the sticking out roof above the bottom-left window, and how they mostly disappear when resized with AVISynth. I recommend that it is viewed by opening the pictures in separate tabs, maximizing them, scrolling to the bottom left, and switching between them. Maybe somebody can sort out the issue?

Original VOB

Encoded without any filters to h264 using the x264 codec at 3000 kbps - Single Pass

VirtualDubMod Bicubic Resize

AVISynth Lanczos4/Lanczos/Bicubic Resize (All gave the same negative effect - at least in the area that I pointed out)

-Thanks in advance for any of your responses.

UPDATE: When using the resizing method real-time, using FFDShow, the details don't disappear. It could be a combination of what happens with the x264 codec/with VirtualDubMod/some other reasons... The problem isn't in the AVISynth resizing methods themselves (though this was probably obvious to most).

Sagekilla · 15th February 2009, 04:59

This is from a DVD? If so that means it's encoded @ 720x480. Sounds like you're upsizing, and since you are, you're trying to create detail that was never present in the 720x480 frame. Resizing doesn't "remove" details at all. Unless you're downsizing, in which case you are removing details. But upsizing, you're just interpolating data that never existed in the first place.

Try NNEDI for animated content:

Code:

NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnRight()

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagekilla

This is from a DVD? If so that means it's encoded @ 720x480. Sounds like you're upsizing, and since you are, you're trying to create detail that was never present in the 720x480 frame. Resizing doesn't "remove" details at all. Unless you're downsizing, in which case you are removing details. But upsizing, you're just interpolating data that never existed in the first place.

Try NNEDI for animated content:

Code:

NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnRight()

Yeah. This is from a DVD - 720x480. And as I said, I'm resizing to 720p. And that's exactly what I'm saying - data shouldn't be lost but it is. Look at the comparisons at the place that I mentioned in the post. I'll try that code you gave me. Where should I put it (though I doubt it'll help)?

Adub · 15th February 2009, 09:42

Those details are barely there in the first place. However, resizing, either up or down, will cause you to lose video information and thus quality. So, yes, when you resize, small details will disappear. The better a resizer you use, the less details you lose.

And encoding to a lossy format just compounds the problems.

In short, this is exactly what's supposed to happen. DVD's weren't made to be upsized. Resize algorithms are only so good. And lossy video compression works by throwing away details.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin7777

Those details are barely there in the first place. However, resizing, either up or down, will cause you to lose video information and thus quality. So, yes, when you resize, small details will disappear. The better a resizer you use, the less details you lose.

And encoding to a lossy format just compounds the problems.

In short, this is exactly what's supposed to happen. DVD's weren't made to be upsized. Resize algorithms are only so good. And lossy video compression works by throwing away details.

See, here's the thing... The x264 codec barely effects those details. The second picture is of exactly that. The loss happens after the resize. Now, you say that the resizer is supposed to do that - that resizers end up getting rid of minor details. Okay, I dunno if that's true but if it is, how come the bicubic resizer in VirtualDubMod works so much better than the bicubic resizer used in the AVS script? It's the same algorithm, no? Besides that, if you're saying it's the resizer, how come there isn't any loss in details when I put the script in FFDShow to process the video?.. To top that off, a guy named Triforce made an encode of this same thing from the same exact VOB, also upscaling to 720p, not to mention that he used much more cleaning filters, and the details were still there.

In any case, h264 is the best compression out there in terms of quality. In many respects, it's better than the MPEG-2 compression. The only thing left would be to go uncompressed but then that defeats the whole purpose of an encode, unless it's for video editing.

I think those are enough points to justify that the reason for the loss in quality is something else - something that doesn't quite make sense, to me anyway...

@Tron@ · 15th February 2009, 13:44

What is the best way (script or plugin) for Upscaling to 720 and 1080 ??????? In fact, there are different scripts and a variety of Resizing as a better way???

*.mp4 guy · 15th February 2009, 13:55

Interpolation does inevitably remove some information from the source, but that is not what is causing problems here. What is happening is that, X264 is removing some details from the source, and it is more obvious on the interpolated-then-encoded stream, because x264 had to apply more compression to that stream then the uninterpolated one.

Fizick · 15th February 2009, 13:56

there is no BEST way (beside dont upscaling it

).

@Tron@ · 15th February 2009, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fizick

there is no BEST way (beside dont upscaling it

).

Then reformulated the question - what the script (plugin, Resiz ...) better than another??? Indeed, the difference is and I just want to know how best to use and all ... I hope all the same to get an answer )))))))

Jeremy Duncan · 15th February 2009, 14:58

Sharpener
Resizer

limitedsharpenfaster()
Spline64resize(1920,1080)

Resizing before sharpenign ruins the effect.

Guest · 15th February 2009, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by @Tron@

What is the best way

Please read and obey forum rule 12.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Duncan

Sharpener
Resizer

limitedsharpenfaster()
Spline64resize(1920,1080)

Resizing before sharpenign ruins the effect.

Well, I've tried resizing after and the same thing happens. I think the resize should be done before because then, all the other applied filters work on the full 720p picture. The sharpness looks better that way. I haven't tried Spline64resize so I'll try that and see what happens.\

EDIT: I tried it and the same thing happens.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by *.mp4 guy

Interpolation does inevitably remove some information from the source, but that is not what is causing problems here. What is happening is that, X264 is removing some details from the source, and it is more obvious on the interpolated-then-encoded stream, because x264 had to apply more compression to that stream then the uninterpolated one.

But as I've mentioned, a fellow encoder is able to do this without the loss in quality. In fact, I'll post his result.. This was also upscaled to 720p.

Didée · 15th February 2009, 20:28

There's no way that "just resizing" in Avisynth would lead to that kind of softening which you're showing.

You need to give us the *exact* way how the source was loaded, which filters were used, etc. Most probably there's some filter acting in the background that you're not aware of.

Quickly guessing for an explanation, it could be you're loading the VOB source with DGDecode (or a variant) with activated deblocking ("PP=1/2/4/6", or something). The deblocking could easily lead to detail loss like seen e.g. on those roofs.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didée

There's no way that "just resizing" in Avisynth would lead to that kind of softening which you're showing.

You need to give us the *exact* way how the source was loaded, which filters were used, etc. Most probably there's some filter acting in the background that you're not aware of.

Quickly guessing for an explanation, it could be you're loading the VOB source with DGDecode (or a variant) with activated deblocking ("PP=1/2/4/6", or something). The deblocking could easily lead to detail loss like seen e.g. on those roofs.

Nope. I'm not doing that. I just index the VOB with DGIndex, include that as the mpeg2source in the AVS script and encode it.

Yeah, I know that wasn't achieved with just resizing. Of course - there are many added filters. The point is that resizing is one of them and it didn't cause that effect. I put softening, noise, and grain filters in mine as well but no matter what, the filters aren't going to give you any added details which were or will be lost by the resize...

Didée · 15th February 2009, 20:45

I'm not referring to the picture two posts above. That obviously used much of filtering (one of them being [a]WarpSharp, look at the rounded shingles on the big roof.)

In the OP you present a pic "original VOB" (which isn't original, since it's already resized), and two pics "VirtualDub resized" and "Avisynth resized", both of which show detail loss that *can not* be caused by the standard resizing algorithms, but could be caused e.g. by the deblocking filter of mpeg2source(), if activated.

To find the cause, I asked you to post your exact settings, most importantly the *exact script*.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didée

I'm not referring to the picture two posts above. That obviously used much of filtering (one of them being [a]WarpSharp, look at the rounded shingles on the big roof.)

In the OP you present a pic "original VOB" (which isn't original, since it's already resized), and two pics "VirtualDub resized" and "Avisynth resized", both of which show detail loss that *can not* be caused by the standard resizing algorithms, but could be caused e.g. by the deblocking filter of mpeg2source(), if activated.

To find the cause, I asked you to post your exact settings, most importantly the *exact script*.

Oh. Actually, the script is just the resize. What I did was do a Print Screen of the frame fullscreen for each one. They're all decoded by FFDShow with none of its filters applied. It's not FFDShow that's creating the issue.

Didée · 15th February 2009, 21:23

You sound contradicting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon859

Nope [...] I just index the VOB with DGIndex, include that as the mpeg2source in the AVS script and encode it.

vs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon859

They're all decoded by FFDShow with none of its filters applied.

Unclear to me. [Decoded by mpeg2source] isn't the same as [decoded by ffdshow].

In case of doubt, feel free to upload a small sample of your source. It will be easy to show that Avisynth's resizers are not the cause of that detail loss.

Typhoon859 · 15th February 2009, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didée

You sound contradicting.

vs.

Unclear to me. [Decoded by mpeg2source] isn't the same as [decoded by ffdshow].

In case of doubt, feel free to upload a small sample of your source. It will be easy to show that Avisynth's resizers are not the cause of that detail loss.

No.. I mean, lol.. The VOB is the MPEG-2 Source. So the last three pictures are h264 encodes, encoded in VirtualDubMod by importing the following AVS script - which I then played back in MPC with FFDShow as the decoder for the stream. The original wasn't encoded but rather was the original VOB that I just opened in MPC, also decoded by FFDShow.

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\DGMPGDec 1.5.2\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Warpsharp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\UnDot.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MaskTools.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ColorMatrix.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\hqdn3d.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FluxSmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\RemoveGrain.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\TCPDeliver.dll")

mpeg2source("C:\Users\Typhoon859\Desktop\Dragon Ball Z - Movies 7 & 9 Double Feature Remastered Trailer.d2v")

Lanczos4Resize(1280,720)

-The loading of the plugins doesn't really do anything...

EDIT: Oh, well actually, yeah, the plugins are necessary for the filters I plan to use to work and for the mpeg2source to be able to be decoded. Yeah, you were right - DGDecode. But, as I showed, without the resize in place, with purely the h264 encode, the problem isn't as prominent and just as much is removed as in the encode of the other guy that I showed. The little bit removed by the h264 isn't the problem.

Sagekilla · 15th February 2009, 21:56

If you want to upscale it to 720p without it looking like complete crap you need to do a couple of things:

1) Darken those lines up a bit (Toon or fastlinedarken)
2) Denoise it
3) do edge enhancement (LSF with it's edge-only mode)
4) Use NNEDI to upscale to 1440x960, then scale down to 1280x720 with Spline16Resize or something like that.

My try with a generic script I had for an anime encode I did a long time ago:

Script for attempt #3:

Code:

# Disclaimer: Absurdly slow.
Imagereader("original.png")
ConvertToYV12()
Spline16Resize(720,480)


Toon(0.25)
dfttest(sigma=1.6, tbsize=3)
AAA(chroma=true)
NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnRight()
aWarpSharp(24,4,0.3,1)
LimitedSharpenfaster(edgemode=1,strength=200,ss_x=1,ss_y=1)
spline36Resize(1360,768)
Tweak(sat=1.1)

Only difference between this image and my attempt #3 script is this one didn't have Tweak(sat=1.1) applied.

15th February 2009, 03:35	#1 \| Link
Typhoon859 Banned Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 136	Resizing (Upscaling) is Removing Details?!... At first, when I noticed the problem by comparing it to the original, I thought it was one of my grain/noise removing/reducing filters. I went through all of them and the problem didn't seem to go away. I stripped it down to just the 720p resize that I had and the problem was still there. After that, I tried it with just the mpeg2stream identifying line and the problem was gone. I then tried the Bicubic resize that VirtualDubMod has and the problem wasn't as prominent. I don't really understand how the resizing affects anything at all but I captured frames for comparison. In the pictures, notice the details on the sticking out roof above the bottom-left window, and how they mostly disappear when resized with AVISynth. I recommend that it is viewed by opening the pictures in separate tabs, maximizing them, scrolling to the bottom left, and switching between them. Maybe somebody can sort out the issue? Original VOB Encoded without any filters to h264 using the x264 codec at 3000 kbps - Single Pass VirtualDubMod Bicubic Resize AVISynth Lanczos4/Lanczos/Bicubic Resize (All gave the same negative effect - at least in the area that I pointed out) -Thanks in advance for any of your responses. UPDATE: When using the resizing method real-time, using FFDShow, the details don't disappear. It could be a combination of what happens with the x264 codec/with VirtualDubMod/some other reasons... The problem isn't in the AVISynth resizing methods themselves (though this was probably obvious to most). Last edited by Typhoon859; 18th February 2009 at 14:05.

15th February 2009, 04:59	#2 \| Link
Sagekilla x264aholic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York Posts: 1,752	This is from a DVD? If so that means it's encoded @ 720x480. Sounds like you're upsizing, and since you are, you're trying to create detail that was never present in the 720x480 frame. Resizing doesn't "remove" details at all. Unless you're downsizing, in which case you are removing details. But upsizing, you're just interpolating data that never existed in the first place. Try NNEDI for animated content: Code: NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1, dh=true).TurnRight() __________________ You can't call your encoding speed slow until you start measuring in seconds per frame.

15th February 2009, 09:42	#4 \| Link
Adub Fighting spam with a fish Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,699	Those details are barely there in the first place. However, resizing, either up or down, will cause you to lose video information and thus quality. So, yes, when you resize, small details will disappear. The better a resizer you use, the less details you lose. And encoding to a lossy format just compounds the problems. In short, this is exactly what's supposed to happen. DVD's weren't made to be upsized. Resize algorithms are only so good. And lossy video compression works by throwing away details. __________________ FAQs:Bond's AVC/H.264 FAQ Site:Adubvideo

15th February 2009, 13:56	#8 \| Link
Fizick AviSynth plugger Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Russia Posts: 2,183	there is no BEST way (beside dont upscaling it ). __________________ My Avisynth plugins are now at http://avisynth.org.ru and mirror at http://avisynth.nl/users/fizick I usually do not provide a technical support in private messages.

15th February 2009, 20:28	#14 \| Link
Didée Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 5,391	There's no way that "just resizing" in Avisynth would lead to that kind of softening which you're showing. You need to give us the exact way how the source was loaded, which filters were used, etc. Most probably there's some filter acting in the background that you're not aware of. Quickly guessing for an explanation, it could be you're loading the VOB source with DGDecode (or a variant) with activated deblocking ("PP=1/2/4/6", or something). The deblocking could easily lead to detail loss like seen e.g. on those roofs. __________________ - We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood - My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!) Last edited by Didée; 15th February 2009 at 20:30.

15th February 2009, 13:44	#6 \| Link
@Tron@ Registered User Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 24	What is the best way (script or plugin) for Upscaling to 720 and 1080 ??????? In fact, there are different scripts and a variety of Resizing as a better way???

15th February 2009, 13:55	#7 \| Link
*.mp4 guy Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,348	Interpolation does inevitably remove some information from the source, but that is not what is causing problems here. What is happening is that, X264 is removing some details from the source, and it is more obvious on the interpolated-then-encoded stream, because x264 had to apply more compression to that stream then the uninterpolated one.

15th February 2009, 14:58	#10 \| Link
Jeremy Duncan Didée Fan Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,079	Sharpener Resizer limitedsharpenfaster() Spline64resize(1920,1080) Resizing before sharpenign ruins the effect.

15th February 2009, 20:45	#16 \| Link
Didée Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 5,391	I'm not referring to the picture two posts above. That obviously used much of filtering (one of them being [a]WarpSharp, look at the rounded shingles on the big roof.) In the OP you present a pic "original VOB" (which isn't original, since it's already resized), and two pics "VirtualDub resized" and "Avisynth resized", both of which show detail loss that can not be caused by the standard resizing algorithms, but could be caused e.g. by the deblocking filter of mpeg2source(), if activated. To find the cause, I asked you to post your exact settings, most importantly the exact script. __________________ - We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood - My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!)

15th February 2009, 21:56	#20 \| Link
Sagekilla x264aholic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York Posts: 1,752	If you want to upscale it to 720p without it looking like complete crap you need to do a couple of things: 1) Darken those lines up a bit (Toon or fastlinedarken) 2) Denoise it 3) do edge enhancement (LSF with it's edge-only mode) 4) Use NNEDI to upscale to 1440x960, then scale down to 1280x720 with Spline16Resize or something like that. My try with a generic script I had for an anime encode I did a long time ago: Script for attempt #3: Code: # Disclaimer: Absurdly slow. Imagereader("original.png") ConvertToYV12() Spline16Resize(720,480) Toon(0.25) dfttest(sigma=1.6, tbsize=3) AAA(chroma=true) NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnLeft().NNEDI(1,dh=true).TurnRight() aWarpSharp(24,4,0.3,1) LimitedSharpenfaster(edgemode=1,strength=200,ss_x=1,ss_y=1) spline36Resize(1360,768) Tweak(sat=1.1) Only difference between this image and my attempt #3 script is this one didn't have Tweak(sat=1.1) applied. __________________ You can't call your encoding speed slow until you start measuring in seconds per frame. Last edited by Sagekilla; 15th February 2009 at 22:10.