Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th October 2012, 17:29   #14821  |  Link
MSL_DK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denmark
Posts: 137
I am about to calibrate my TV/htpc. I know this is not quite right to do through mpc/madVR but I do not own a blu-ray player... yet.

When I calibrate through mpc/madVR would it be most optimal to choose 'this display is already calibrated' choose BT.709 select pure power curve 2.20 and 'disable GPU gamma ramps'?

I calibrate using X-Rite i1Display Pro, ColorHCFR and AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
MSL_DK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 18:50   #14822  |  Link
crotecun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
If you know that it works that way, but it's nowhere indicated.
That's more like a documentation problem than a configuration problem.

If madVR gets a checkbox to disable the file tokens it would be nigh useless since most users would not know about the filename tokens in the first place and they wouldn't check the option. But if it is checked by default, then madVR would lose a fair bit of functionality since the filename tokens would be disabled.

Basically by the time you know about the option to disable the filename tokens then you would also know that you could have done the same by just renaming the files yourself.

It's better to document this function thoroughly. If it hasn't been done already, perhaps a status in the on screen display whenever madVR follows a filename token to set the frame rate?
crotecun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 19:07   #14823  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Well, you reported that the Jinc AR produces more (or uglier) ringing compared to e.g. Lanczos/Spline AR. I need more images which demonstrate that. Basically any images which make Jinc AR stumble somehow. And the more different the test images are the better. Thanks.
I will try and find some more samples.

As I said, it's difficult outside of artificial tests, or recorded game footage. (most of the game footage I use has gone through an analogue video chain and is quite compressed, so it's not the same as an "artificial" screenshot) Most other content that needs scaled up already has a ton of ringing, and I find scalers like Jinc/Spline far too sharp for it.

I've had a quick look over some "problem discs" and so far it seems that with most real-world DVD content, Jinc is on-par or better than Spline as far as ringing is concerned with the anti-ringing filter enabled, but much better on aliasing. (as expected) I still find it far too sharp for SD content, and tend to go back to SoftCubic 80 though. Separate HD/SD scaling options would be nice, as I quite like Jinc 3 anti-ring for HD, and SoftCubic 80 for SD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
DVD playback is not officially supported by madVR yet. I can't fix things that I don't support and which require hacking the OS for me to even be able to reproduce the problem.
The DVD problems don't require OS hacks to show up - as soon as I try to play a DVD in MPC-HC with madVR, I get Macrovision errors, whether it's ffdshow or LAV Filters doing the decoding, and this is with AnyDVD running.

The "OS hacks" are required to try and get DVD playback working in madVR, and now only require changing a registry key to point it to a different DVD Navigator instead of replacing system files.

If you get this package, and use the executable to point it to the qdvd.dll contained within (Windows XP's DVD Navigator) DVD playback works, but it has a tendency to crash on seeking (video keeps playing, but MPC-HC is unresponsive) and menus don't always work correctly.

There was a brief period where you could get Windows 7's DVD Navigator working with specific builds of LAV Filters, but Nevcariel doesn't know what it was that enabled them to work, and he apparently has the Windows 7 DVD Navigator working correctly on his system in all current builds of LAV Filters. (but I can't see how - I only have madVR and LAV Filters running in my tests on a fresh install of Windows)
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 19:10   #14824  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
The DVD problems don't require OS hacks to show up - as soon as I try to play a DVD in MPC-HC with madVR, I get Macrovision errors, whether it's ffdshow or LAV Filters doing the decoding, and this is with AnyDVD running.
He wasn't answering about Macrovision errors, but playback errors/player lockups when using the "hack", which someone inquired about.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 19:31   #14825  |  Link
Pat357
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Well, encoders/muxers usually flag correctly, or not? .
No, the muxer/encoder often take whatever the user inputs : bullshit in -> bullshit out.

On playback the demuxers/splitters have (often) no choice then reading the flags from the file ; there is no way for the splitter to know whether these are correct for this file are not.
Some things like FPS can be "measured" for a few frames ; the splitter can use these as an "approximation" for the real FPS, without being sure of it;
This all makes that playback will look very bad : playing to fast/slow, shakey, combing, 3/2 jitter + not smooth, blurry, wrong colors, artifacts from de-interlacing progressive content , ....

Last edited by Pat357; 16th October 2012 at 20:20.
Pat357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 20:37   #14826  |  Link
iSunrise
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
The DVD problems don't require OS hacks to show up - as soon as I try to play a DVD in MPC-HC with madVR, I get Macrovision errors, whether it's ffdshow or LAV Filters doing the decoding, and this is with AnyDVD running.

The "OS hacks" are required to try and get DVD playback working in madVR, and now only require changing a registry key to point it to a different DVD Navigator instead of replacing system files.

If you get this package, and use the executable to point it to the qdvd.dll contained within (Windows XP's DVD Navigator) DVD playback works, but it has a tendency to crash on seeking (video keeps playing, but MPC-HC is unresponsive) and menus don't always work correctly.

There was a brief period where you could get Windows 7's DVD Navigator working with specific builds of LAV Filters, but Nevcariel doesn't know what it was that enabled them to work, and he apparently has the Windows 7 DVD Navigator working correctly on his system in all current builds of LAV Filters. (but I can't see how - I only have madVR and LAV Filters running in my tests on a fresh install of Windows)
Did you already try nevcariel´s latest DVD betas? I also had problems with the standard DVD Navigator filter in Windows 7 with older LAV builds. DVD playback works perfectly fine here now, without having to change anything in the OS itself. Just leave AnyDVD running in the background. LAV even shows DVD menus now, which is awesome.

PS: I´m on Windows 7 x64 Ultimate. Playback chain is only LAV and madVR (using PotPlayer).

@madshi:
What I would really find useful is to have like 2 different upscaling setups, where either madVR can automatically choose between them (e.x. source: movie resolution) or/and the user can toggle (override) between them if needed. I think you already mentioned something like that in your last posts.

I usually prefer sharp algorithms, however, there is some content out there that just scales very badly to 1080p (or in the future even higher), where you need to think a bit differently. I love your work on Jinc, excited to see where you can take it.

Last edited by iSunrise; 16th October 2012 at 20:41.
iSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 21:17   #14827  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Did you already try nevcariel´s latest DVD betas? I also had problems with the standard DVD Navigator filter in Windows 7 with older LAV builds. DVD playback works perfectly fine here now, without having to change anything in the OS itself. Just leave AnyDVD running in the background. LAV even shows DVD menus now, which is awesome.
I have just tried installing the latest MPC-HC and LAV Filters builds from here and it's still not working. (previously, I was using the builds with DVD playback enabled that were posted in the LAV Filters topic)

My filter list with DVDs is:
  • ReClock Audio Renderer (I have tried changing audio renderer, it makes no difference)
  • madVR
  • LAV Audio Decoder
  • LAV Video Decoder
  • DVD Navigator
I get "Macrovision Fail" any time I try playing a DVD with the Windows 7 DVD Navigator. (Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1)

I just reinstalled Windows 7 a couple of weeks ago, after trying out Windows 8 (too many compatibility issues for me) so it's not like I have anything else installed on my system that should be causing it.

Are you running with an AMD or Nvidia card in your system? That's about the only other thing I can think it could be that is causing this to work fine on some systems, and not at all on others.
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2012, 23:38   #14828  |  Link
strumf666
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You told me you were using "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p60". Which was not true. You are actually using "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p60". madVR consequently selects 1080p25 for 25Hz content, but unfortunately your GPU reports "bad mode" when trying to switch to 1080p25. You should only enter valid display modes into the madVR display switching field.
Apologies, I use projector and TV for output and I must have forgotten to delete the 25p from projector settings. Regarding the graphics card reporting it as bad, that's probably because my projector doesn't support it or do AMD cards have issues with it?
Thanks for your help
strumf666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 01:38   #14829  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I have just tried installing the latest MPC-HC and LAV Filters builds from here and it's still not working. (previously, I was using the builds with DVD playback enabled that were posted in the LAV Filters topic)

My filter list with DVDs is:
  • ReClock Audio Renderer (I have tried changing audio renderer, it makes no difference)
  • madVR
  • LAV Audio Decoder
  • LAV Video Decoder
  • DVD Navigator
I get "Macrovision Fail" any time I try playing a DVD with the Windows 7 DVD Navigator. (Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1)

I just reinstalled Windows 7 a couple of weeks ago, after trying out Windows 8 (too many compatibility issues for me) so it's not like I have anything else installed on my system that should be causing it.

Are you running with an AMD or Nvidia card in your system? That's about the only other thing I can think it could be that is causing this to work fine on some systems, and not at all on others.
I have the DVD navigator working on both of my systems with ATI and nvidia. Did you apply the path hack that is in the dslibdvdnav thread?
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 03:58   #14830  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
While it's probably not what you were looking for, as it's still relatively artificial, here are a couple of samples that show ringing around the edge of subtitles that the current anti-ringing filter doesn't catch. (Munich DVD)



I would say that Spline 3 AR exhibits slightly less ringing in these samples compared to Jinc 3 AR.

Mitchell-Netravali AR shows minimal ringing, and SoftCubic 80 shows negligible ringing with these images. Anything else is rings too much for my tastes. (but I'm pushing myself to use Jinc 3 to look for things like this)

Jinc 3 AR and SoftCubic 80 are the only resamplers that show good anti-aliasing properties on the diagonals. (but the source is very aliased)

As with most DVDs though, even if the ringing introduced by Jinc were eliminated, I think it is still too sharp to use due to the amount of ringing already encoded in the source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
I have the DVD navigator working on both of my systems with ATI and nvidia. Did you apply the path hack that is in the dslibdvdnav thread?
I have that working fine, but other people here are reporting that the Windows 7 DVD Navigator is now working with the latest versions of LAV Filters and madVR, which I cannot get working at all. ("Macrovision Fail" error)

I can only get the XP DVD Navigator (qdvd.dll set using the tool provided with dslibdvdnav) or dslibdvdnav working with madVR, neither of which are great solutions. The XP DVD Navigator crashes on seeking 90% of the time (video plays, but the player becomes unresponsive) and dslibdvdnav doesn't work with a large number of DVDs that I own.

There was a brief period where an older version of LAV Filters worked with the Windows 7 DVD Navigator, and that played most of the discs I tried without issue, however that has now broken for me in updated versions of LAV Filters. (but there are new features/bugfixes that I need from them)


Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post
Apologies, I use projector and TV for output and I must have forgotten to delete the 25p from projector settings. Regarding the graphics card reporting it as bad, that's probably because my projector doesn't support it or do AMD cards have issues with it?
Thanks for your help
I don't know of any display which accepts a 25Hz (25p) signal. With Nvidia, "25Hz" actually outputs 1080i50 if I remember correctly. (which is then deinterlaced to 1080p25)
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 08:00   #14831  |  Link
Pulstar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 105
Any idea why madVR switches to TV levels output with certain SD/AVC files, regardless of decoder? All monitors in madVR are set to PC levels.
Pulstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 09:56   #14832  |  Link
Peekstra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 31
Recently, I noticed some tearing with Madvr in the upper part of the image (mainly during horizontal movements):





These (sorry) rather unclear photo's show it on my TV. I don't know if it happens with HD / no PAL material as well as I've been mainly watching SD (PAL) content for the last weeks which I don't do very often. As I don't very often watch PAL material its also possible that this problem already was present before the more recent Madvr builds although I'm inclined to think it has started happening with the more recent builds.

It's very difficult to reproduce because it can take hours before it happens. When I restart the player, the problem is gone.

The TV is set to the same refreshrate as the source material by Madvr and has a very low deviation (< 0.001%).

I'm using the latest Nvidia WHQL drivers and it happened with the previous one as well. The GPU is a GTX670 and the player is Zoomplayer 8.16

And I'm also using the HPET settings which were posted earlier in this thread.

Madvr is using all the default options for as far as I can tell.
Peekstra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 11:46   #14833  |  Link
cyberbeing
Broadband Junkie
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,859
Crash with madVR v0.84.3 & MPC-HC ISR r6086
http://www.mediafire.com/?a9698iv9rucvr6r

Doesn't seem easily reproducible, so this could be a MPC-HC ISR bug and not a madVR bug. It crashed when the MPC-HC ISR was trying to display a line right after a chapter point. The line in question specified a missing font, so the MPC-HC ISR probably crashed when attempting to load or render the gdi fallback font.
cyberbeing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 16:15   #14834  |  Link
NicolasRobidoux
Nicolas Robidoux
 
NicolasRobidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
While it's probably not what you were looking for, as it's still relatively artificial, here are a couple of samples that show ringing around the edge of subtitles that the current anti-ringing filter doesn't catch.
IMHO, this is exactly the kind of image where EWA Quadratic B-spline smoothing shines. It's cheap (radius=1.5), it smooths out ringing, and it's not offensively blurry: http://web.cs.laurentian.ca/nrobidoux/misc/madVR/screenshot179sapEWAQuadratic.png

On the other hand, I imagine that Mathias has something else to do than add such a "special purpose" filter: Unless the image is pixelated and/or full or ringing/halo almost to the point of being considered "defective", this filter is too soft, at least for luma.

Last edited by NicolasRobidoux; 17th October 2012 at 16:18.
NicolasRobidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 16:41   #14835  |  Link
NicolasRobidoux
Nicolas Robidoux
 
NicolasRobidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 269
I actually have programmed a relative of EWA quadratic B-spline smoothing, called VSQBS (Vertex Split with Quadratic B-Spline Smoothing) which is an unbelievably cheap scheme (my guess is would be screamingly fast on a GPU), in a different library than ImageMagick, namely VIPS (Virtual Image Processing System) and its GUI NIP2 (New Image Processor 2). It has slightly better jaggy reduction, at the cost of a touch more blur. http://web.cs.laurentian.ca/nrobidoux/misc/madVR/screenshot179sapVSQBS.png

VSQBS is not for downsampling. To get a similar scheme for downsampling, you should switch to EWA or tensor quadratic B-spline smoothing.

When enlarging, VSQBS uses the 8 input pixel values closest to the output pixel location to produce its value, and it's really easy to determine these 8.

(Note: Neither with ImageMagick nor VIPS did I do careful import and export of the png. This is why there is a slight difference in colouring in some browsers.)

P.S. Despite the reduced jaggies, I actually like EWA quadratic B-spline smoothing better than VSQBS.

Last edited by NicolasRobidoux; 17th October 2012 at 17:28.
NicolasRobidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 17:34   #14836  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasRobidoux View Post
IMHO, this is exactly the kind of image where EWA Quadratic B-spline smoothing shines. It's cheap (radius=1.5), it smooths out ringing, and it's not offensively blurry: http://web.cs.laurentian.ca/nrobidoux/misc/madVR/screenshot179sapEWAQuadratic.png

On the other hand, I imagine that Mathias has something else to do than add such a "special purpose" filter: Unless the image is pixelated and/or full or ringing/halo almost to the point of being considered "defective", this filter is too soft, at least for luma.
Soft filters are not necessarily bad for Luma. Unlike image processing where you might be upsampling a high quality photograph, the quality of commercially released DVDs is generally terrible. They have had all the high-frequency detail filtered out of them, and sharpened with very basic techniques that introduce a lot of ringing. Older discs also exhibit a lot of "mosquito" noise.

What I like about softer filters, is that they often blur out this offensive ringing/noise (note: I have no problem with film grain) while retaining most of the actual useful picture information.

This is perhaps going too far in the opposite direction, but SoftCubic 80 compared with Jinc 3 anti-ring:


Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasRobidoux View Post
I actually have programmed a relative of EWA quadratic B-spline smoothing, called VSQBS (Vertex Split with Quadratic B-Spline Smoothing) which is an unbelievably cheap scheme (my guess is would be screamingly fast on a GPU), in a different library than ImageMagick, namely VIPS (Virtual Image Processing System) and its GUI NIP2 (New Image Processor 2). It has slightly better jaggy reduction, at the cost of a touch more blur.
This looks pretty good. (along with your other example)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peekstra View Post
Recently, I noticed some tearing with Madvr in the upper part of the image (mainly during horizontal movements)
...

These (sorry) rather unclear photo's show it on my TV. I don't know if it happens with HD / no PAL material as well as I've been mainly watching SD (PAL) content for the last weeks which I don't do very often. As I don't very often watch PAL material its also possible that this problem already was present before the more recent Madvr builds although I'm inclined to think it has started happening with the more recent builds.
  1. Do you have interpolation enabled on your TV? (motion smoothing) A number of displays can introduce their own screen tearing when using it. (I think just about all Sony TVs do with MotionFlow enabled for example) You should be able to take a screenshot that shows tearing, if it is not the display.
  2. You are using an Nvidia graphics card, do you have "Adaptive V-Sync" enabled? This allows the GPU to tear.
  3. You say that you don't often play PAL material, are you outputting it at 50Hz? (Or 24p with ReClock's PAL SpeedDown?)
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 18:09   #14837  |  Link
NicolasRobidoux
Nicolas Robidoux
 
NicolasRobidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 269
On the Danny Glover shot, EWA quadratic B-spline smoothing has nothing over (tensor, I imagine) SoftCubic 80.
(Being sloppy, I can't quite align things using an ImageMagick command, so this is with the not-quite-aligned eyeball metric.)
P.S. I managed to get alignment. They're so close one could almost say they're clones. EWA Quadratic is a minuscule amount sharper and jaggier. I think SoftCubic wins by a whisker.
No "normal viewer" would see the difference, though. Even zooming in with a high quality image viewer (I use NIP2, of course: it's really fast, and I'm a dev).
P.S.2 Scrutinizing some more, SoftCubic 80 wins: less jaggies, without significant additional blur, and with very little additional halo.
P.S.3 But basically, you have to zoom in to break the tie.

Last edited by NicolasRobidoux; 17th October 2012 at 22:11.
NicolasRobidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 19:25   #14838  |  Link
Peekstra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madshi View Post
[*]You are using an Nvidia graphics card, do you have "Adaptive V-Sync" enabled? This allows the GPU to tear.[*]You say that you don't often play PAL material, are you outputting it at 50Hz? (Or 24p with ReClock's PAL SpeedDown?)[/list]
The TV is perfectly in sync at 50hz so that's not the problem.

While the TV does some smoothing but I don't think that's the culprit here. But....

It's probably the adaptive vsync option, it's enabled. I'll turn it off during playing a video and try if it happens again.

Peekstra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 19:49   #14839  |  Link
yok833
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 73
I have an random issue with all the version of Madvr... I have an ATI 6850 with a X4 925, 8 GB Ram and W7 64. The problem is after a certain period the screen is divided in 2 with a lot of artifacts.
Do you have an idea of the reason and how to fix??? At the moment the only solution is to reboot the system (close the session is not enough and the image is still splited in 2)
yok833 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2012, 21:02   #14840  |  Link
Moony349
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 25
My best guess is your video card is overheating.
Moony349 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.