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Old 29th October 2017, 11:58   #46921  |  Link
huhn
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my 1060 can do ngu sharp very high with normal chroma when upscaling 1080p23 to UHD.

so are you sure you didn't forget to change the nvidia power setting to adaptive?
and if you want tell people want you want to do no one can tell you if a 1080 can do X.
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Old 29th October 2017, 13:01   #46922  |  Link
jkauff
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
my 1060 can do ngu sharp very high with normal chroma when upscaling 1080p23 to UHD.

so are you sure you didn't forget to change the nvidia power setting to adaptive?
and if you want tell people want you want to do no one can tell you if a 1080 can do X.
I guess you have a better 1060 than I do. Mine won't do doubling at the lowest settings without dropping frames.

All I want to do is simple doubling with NGU. And yes, I'm on Adaptive power setting.
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Old 29th October 2017, 13:13   #46923  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
I guess you have a better 1060 than I do. Mine won't do doubling at the lowest settings without dropping frames.

All I want to do is simple doubling with NGU. And yes, I'm on Adaptive power setting.
I also feel there might be something off in your settings. I have a GTX980 and that can do doubling with NGU sharp high no problem. These cards are about even in preformance.
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Old 29th October 2017, 13:15   #46924  |  Link
huhn
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NGU low is pretty much free so can you make a screen of the OSD?
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Old 29th October 2017, 14:03   #46925  |  Link
Frexxia
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Test with a 32 bit media player.
Thanks!

There should be a warning that it doesn't work with 64 bit players somewhere.
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Old 29th October 2017, 16:11   #46926  |  Link
jkauff
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
NGU low is pretty much free so can you make a screen of the OSD?
I found the problem. I had accidentally left RCA and RRN enabled (at 1). Disabling them got rid of the drops, so all is well now.
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Old 29th October 2017, 17:05   #46927  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Not true at all. Actually, the better the source quality, the better NGU Sharp looks. E.g. have you seen these screenshots yet?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post54983374

These are from one of the best UHD Blu-Rays (in terms of detail and resolution) we have so far, and madVR's 1080p -> UHD upscale gets remarkably close to the UHD image, when talking about edges. Of course madVR can't invent texture detail which isn't there in the 1080p image. But edges upscaled to 4K look *so* much better than when displaying the 1080p image untouched.
I surrender! I accept your opinion as true. And I'm not ironic or anything. I respect your knowledge in this field and rest assured that whenever I'll get the money to upgrade to 4K madVR will be there with me in getting the best quality possible on screen.
(I'll go have a look on AVS, thanks for the link)
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Old 29th October 2017, 18:18   #46928  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
while it may not be intended back in the days pixel art games are created even today. and i'm pretty sure it is intended now.
Maybe, I don't know. Are these pixel art games created today as aliased as those old low-res pixel art games? Or do they have smooth "anti-aliased" edges now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
yes we have to scale them now but that was not the case with old CRT screen or even to some degree with LCDs and not the important part here it is the huge scaling factor with UHD screens.
it's not easy to make UHD picture for comparison they are usually to huge for image hoster.

here some screens:
native: https://abload.de/img/title06.mkv_snapshot_1eue5.png
NGU sharp high: https://abload.de/img/ngusharp71uf0.png
NGU AA: https://abload.de/img/nguaajau63.png
lanczos3: https://abload.de/img/lanczosnuuja.png

NGU sharp does some wonders on the background tiny blue red flags and half side of the white helmet(and way more) but it highlights compression artefacts and it is quite odd that some image parts are not sharp at all and some look pretty ok.
NGU sharp is known to work best with good source this source has nothing todo with good.

every other used scaler is significantly less sharp but has a more balanced image.
is NGU sharp sharper than the source image maybe? if not every other scaler makes it less sharp than the source.
scaling an image like this is at best a trade.

i used NGU high, let madVR decide except for downscaling i used SSIM 1D100 AR.

madVR 0.92.7 RCA 2 is effect on this image but it is not used because this is about scaling.
Well, first of all we were originally talking about 1080p -> 4K upscaling, which is not the same huge upscaling factor as DVD -> 4K, but anyway.

I've one problem with your post: It's a comparison of NGU AA vs NGU Sharp vs NGU Lanczos. But it's *not* a comparison of NGU vs unscaled. Some users might think it is, because you provided the original untouched source image, but it's not. Why? Because in order to compare 2 images, both images need to have the same *viewing angle*. If you compare 2 images where one image covers a much smaller angle of your view than the other, then the one with the smaller viewing angle will almost always look sharper and less artifacty. But it's not a fair comparison, because we're not discussing watching 1080p content on a 25" 1080p display, compared to watching 1080p content on a 50" 4K display! What we're discussing is watching 1080p content on a 50" 1080p display, compared to watching 1080 content on a 50" 4K display. Do you agree? The 1080p and 4K displays will have the same viewing angle. So in order to do a fair comparison we also need to compare "screenshots" with the same viewing angle.

So how can we do a fair comparison? It's actually simple: We use a digicam/DSLR to shoot an image of the unscaled source, and we shoot it in such a way that the unscaled source covers the whole digicam frame. Then we shoot an image of the upscaled image, again in such a way that the upscaled image covers the whole frame. This way we get a relatively fair comparison how the upscaled vs unscaled images look like, when seen at the same viewing angle.

Unfortunately there's a catch here: Your unscaled DVD image has a distorted aspect ratio, so I had no choice but to correct the aspect ratio by upscaling. I've used the same algos for AR correction, and for upscaling.

Here are the results, straight out of the digicam, no processing other than simple cropping:

digiCamNativeRes.png - | - digiCamUpscaled.png

Please make sure your browser doesn't zoom these!

Due to technical limitations (physical resolution of my monitor) it's a relatively small upscaling factor, but I'm pretty sure the results would have been identical (or even more in favor of the upscaled version) with a bigger upscaling factor.

Please feel free to repeat this test yourself!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anima123 View Post
Is RCA applied before IVTC, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
IVTC is done with the CPU so you can blindly assume it is done before.
^ IVTC first, RCA after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I surrender! I accept your opinion as true. And I'm not ironic or anything. I respect your knowledge in this field and rest assured that whenever I'll get the money to upgrade to 4K madVR will be there with me in getting the best quality possible on screen.
Thanks, appreciate that. Also check out my reply to huhn above, it might confirm things for you.

FWIW, there is more to this than just the question whether upscaling is useful or not. E.g. if the 1080p display has better native contrast, overall you might still be better off with the 1080p display than with the 4K display. So 4K isn't always better than 1080p.

Last edited by madshi; 29th October 2017 at 18:21.
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Old 29th October 2017, 18:43   #46929  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Maybe, I don't know. Are these pixel art games created today as aliased as those old low-res pixel art games? Or do they have smooth "anti-aliased" edges now?
this game got sales in the millions:
https://abload.de/img/stardewm6u3m.png


Quote:
Well, first of all we were originally talking about 1080p -> 4K upscaling, which is not the same huge upscaling factor as DVD -> 4K, but anyway.

I've one problem with your post: It's a comparison of NGU AA vs NGU Sharp vs NGU Lanczos. But it's *not* a comparison of NGU vs unscaled. Some users might think it is, because you provided the original untouched source image, but it's not. Why? Because in order to compare 2 images, both images need to have the same *viewing angle*. If you compare 2 images where one image covers a much smaller angle of your view than the other, then the one with the smaller viewing angle will almost always look sharper and less artifacty. But it's not a fair comparison, because we're not discussing watching 1080p content on a 25" 1080p display, compared to watching 1080p content on a 50" 4K display! What we're discussing is watching 1080p content on a 50" 1080p display, compared to watching 1080 content on a 50" 4K display. Do you agree? The 1080p and 4K displays will have the same viewing angle. So in order to do a fair comparison we also need to compare "screenshots" with the same viewing angle.

So how can we do a fair comparison? It's actually simple: We use a digicam/DSLR to shoot an image of the unscaled source, and we shoot it in such a way that the unscaled source covers the whole digicam frame. Then we shoot an image of the upscaled image, again in such a way that the upscaled image covers the whole frame. This way we get a relatively fair comparison how the upscaled vs unscaled images look like, when seen at the same viewing angle.

Unfortunately there's a catch here: Your unscaled DVD image has a distorted aspect ratio, so I had no choice but to correct the aspect ratio by upscaling. I've used the same algos for AR correction, and for upscaling.

Here are the results, straight out of the digicam, no processing other than simple cropping:

digiCamNativeRes.png - | - digiCamUpscaled.png

Please make sure your browser doesn't zoom these!

Due to technical limitations (physical resolution of my monitor) it's a relatively small upscaling factor, but I'm pretty sure the results would have been identical (or even more in favor of the upscaled version) with a bigger upscaling factor.

Please feel free to repeat this test yourself!
my real problem is scaling in general is not a pure positive effect which will make images better.

the image i post you looks odd with NGU sharp because some parts get sharp after scaling and other don't and this results in a odd look just look at the ship the "mast" they are super sharp compared to the rest of the image which is odd because it is clearly not in focus.
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Old 29th October 2017, 18:54   #46930  |  Link
Razoola
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Maybe, I don't know. Are these pixel art games created today as aliased as those old low-res pixel art games? Or do they have smooth "anti-aliased" edges now?
The purists of pixel art games would not use any type of smoothing, they would much rather have the jaggies. The only thing that would interest them would be scanline filters maybe providing it does not compromise pixel accuracy.

I'm not sure any type of generated scanlines (like done in emulators) would be wanted in madVR unless there is video content out there that would look better on an old Low Khz arcade game type monitor than todays panels.

Last edited by Razoola; 29th October 2017 at 19:03.
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Old 29th October 2017, 18:56   #46931  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this game got sales in the millions:
https://abload.de/img/stardewm6u3m.png
Euuw, not sure why anybody would create such aliased ugliness today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
my real problem is scaling in general is not a pure positive effect which will make images better.

the image i post you looks odd with NGU sharp because some parts get sharp after scaling and other don't and this results in a odd look just look at the ship the "mast" they are super sharp compared to the rest of the image which is odd because it is clearly not in focus.
You are correct in saying that upscaling algorithms aren't perfect. But I'm sorry to say, you're completely missing the point. You are comparing images with a different viewing angle!!! Because you're looking at the upscaled images in 100% view on your PC, and comparing them to the original unscaled image in 100% view on your PC. Until you understand this crucial point there's no reason to discuss any further. Please do a fair apples to apples comparison, using the same viewing angle for unscaled vs upscaled images, and I'm sure you'll finally see that upscaled is overall noticeably better, even though upscaling algorithms are admittedly not perfect.
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Old 29th October 2017, 19:14   #46932  |  Link
Razoola
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Euuw, not sure why anybody would create such aliased ugliness today.
There is big money to be made here, esp games on old arcade systems. Games by NG DEV.TEAM for Neo Geo as an example sell for over 400 euro a pop. Those are at a resolution of 320x224 and look graphically really impressive...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMix_9cesik
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Old 29th October 2017, 19:36   #46933  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

It seems to be a case of 1080p movie on 1080p screen, so why should madVR double? Did you activate supersampling? If so, it might make sense if you make screenshots of your doubling settings page. Also please make sure that the profile you want to be active is actually active (shown in "bold" font) in this situation.
madVR should double because I have HD material this case, my display is with 4K resolution and I do not want the display to upresize the source. I haven't activated supersampling, I would like madVR to double the 1920x1080p source to 4K resolution. The correct profile is actually active during play. Screenshots were being uploaded here:

http://s1.toldacuccot.hu/letoltes?si...fb453009761334
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Old 29th October 2017, 19:58   #46934  |  Link
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Can't say anything about that without seeing a screenshot of what you mean. madVR is usually not responsible for the player GUI, unless the player uses the madVR GUI/OSD APIs.
I am using JRiver 32bit with it's own madVR and LAV version installed. Screenshot what I meant is uploaded here:

http://s1.toldacuccot.hu/letoltes?si...6b50e77ac24d11

GUI is mixed up only after returning from HD play. Returning from 4K play is without any GUI problem, as it can be seen from the screenshots above.
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Old 29th October 2017, 20:14   #46935  |  Link
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Which issue are you talking about? Not doubling? Or mixed up GUI?
mixed up GUI. After I had changed the renderer in JRiver from madVR (Red October HQ) to the standard one (Red October Standard), there was no mixing up anymore.
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Old 29th October 2017, 20:43   #46936  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.92.8 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added 3 new "reduce compression artifacts" strength steps between 1-4
* removed deblock option "don't reduce texture detail", wasn't useful
* replaced old "reduce random noise" strengths 1+2 with a new strength 1
* fixed: key for increasing "reduce random noise" strength stopped at 5
Not much time for madVR atm, so just some smaller algo tweaks.
Thanks for the new "reduce compression artifacts" strength steps. I can confirm right away that even strength 1 does make a difference without damaging the picture.

Concerning "reduce random noise", strength 1 is a good choice now if you want to remove a little bit the noise without the details destruction of higher strengths. But it's still not my cup of tea, too much details are blurred during the process.

RRN off vs RRN 1

Look at the writing on the sheet of paper. I suppose there's nothing you can do with this type of algo. I hope that someday you will bring multi-frame noise filter, that would be awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Euuw, not sure why anybody would create such aliased ugliness today.
Well, it's far from being the only example. There are still A LOT of "such aliased ugliness" today.

Terraria
TowerFall Ascension
Hyper Light Drifter
Shovel Knight

I could show you a lot more videogames like that, that's just some examples. Their aliased look are clearly made on purpose and any upscalings other than Nearest-Neighbor alters the developper's intention. I'm a big fan of NGU for movies and animes but I will never use any "real" upscaling on pixel arts. I hate what they do on this type of content.

I hope that someday you will bring back Nearest-Neighbor into the GUI, it's the way these games are meant to be played and obviously watched.
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Last edited by Werewolfy; 29th October 2017 at 22:16.
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Old 29th October 2017, 22:10   #46937  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Euuw, not sure why anybody would create such aliased ugliness today.
it made him a couple mills so not sure i would argue with that.

Quote:
You are correct in saying that upscaling algorithms aren't perfect. But I'm sorry to say, you're completely missing the point. You are comparing images with a different viewing angle!!! Because you're looking at the upscaled images in 100% view on your PC, and comparing them to the original unscaled image in 100% view on your PC. Until you understand this crucial point there's no reason to discuss any further. Please do a fair apples to apples comparison, using the same viewing angle for unscaled vs upscaled images, and I'm sure you'll finally see that upscaled is overall noticeably better, even though upscaling algorithms are admittedly not perfect.
sorry your digicam example doesn't count too your screen is scaling so we can't do this properly except with a CRT and a lot of work.

so let's compare lanczos with NGU sharp. while NGU sharp is i guess generally better than lanczos is looks like it is getting out of focus because soem part get really sharp and other not. so i'm just choicing an lesser evil that's not a general increase in image quality in my book. do the good out weight the bads i'm pretty sure it is still just a trade in my book.

i was just disagreeing that upscaling is generally better.
i have to upscale it anyway so...
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Old 29th October 2017, 23:26   #46938  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Concerning "reduce random noise", strength 1 is a good choice now if you want to remove a little bit the noise without the details destruction of higher strengths. But it's still not my cup of tea, too much details are blurred during the process.
Yeah, it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
There is big money to be made here, esp games on old arcade systems. Games by NG DEV.TEAM for Neo Geo as an example sell for over 400 euro a pop. Those are at a resolution of 320x224 and look graphically really impressive...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Well, it's far from being the only example. There are still A LOT of "such aliased ugliness" today.

Terraria
TowerFall Ascension
Hyper Light Drifter
Shovel Knight

I could show you a lot more videogames like that, that's just some examples. Their aliased look are clearly made on purpose
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it made him a couple mills so not sure i would argue with that.
Alright, you guys win. I still think that I would personally prefer having these upscaled with NGU AA instead of nearest neighbor, but I suppose it's a matter of taste.

Well, you probably won't want to constantly use nearest neighbor upscaling, so using a keyboard shortcut to activate it on demand should do the trick, shouldn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mparade View Post
madVR should double because I have HD material this case, my display is with 4K resolution and I do not want the display to upresize the source. I haven't activated supersampling, I would like madVR to double the 1920x1080p source to 4K resolution.
Fair enough, but it seems that madVR thinks that the display mode is actually 1920x1080, and not 4K. I'm not sure if that's actually true, or maybe it's because of your very high DPI setting. Do you use refresh rate / display mode changing in either madVR or J.River somewhere? If so, try disabling that, then activate 4K mode manually, that might solve the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mparade View Post
I am using JRiver 32bit with it's own madVR and LAV version installed. Screenshot what I meant is uploaded here:

http://s1.toldacuccot.hu/letoltes?si...6b50e77ac24d11

GUI is mixed up only after returning from HD play. Returning from 4K play is without any GUI problem, as it can be seen from the screenshots above.
It looks like the display mode switched from 4K to 1080p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
sorry your digicam example doesn't count too your screen is scaling
No no no - my screen was *not* doing any scaling!!!

Maybe I didn't explain well. In order to shoot the "unscaled" image, I displayed your DVD image in MPC-HC with 100% view (called "normal size" in MPC-HC, resulting in 1024x576), using a display mode which matches the physical resolution of my LCD monitor. So every DVD pixel was displayed by one LCD pixel. Well, not really, because of Aspect Ratio correction. But if we ignore AR correction, it was a 1:1 pixel match. Then I took my digicam, used optical (!) zoom to shoot the image. So (other than AR correction) no digital zoom/scaling was applied by anyone. Not by madVR, not by the display, not by the digicam, not by the photo editor, by no one.

In order to shoot the "upscaled" image I simply switched MPC-HC from "normal size" to "touch from inside", changed the optical zoom in my digicam and shot the image again.

This way we have 2 images which very fairly compare unscaled vs upscaled, using the optical zoom in my digicam to get the same viewing angle. Got it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
we can't do this properly except with a CRT and a lot of work.
Apart from AR correction, we absolutely can do it properly. See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
so let's compare lanczos with NGU sharp. while NGU sharp is i guess generally better than lanczos is looks like it is getting out of focus because soem part get really sharp and other not. so i'm just choicing an lesser evil that's not a general increase in image quality in my book. do the good out weight the bads i'm pretty sure it is still just a trade in my book.

i was just disagreeing that upscaling is generally better.
You cannot draw any conclusions without doing a proper apples to apples comparison, using the same viewing angle. I believe if you did a proper apples to apples comparison, you would completely change your mind.
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Old 30th October 2017, 02:35   #46939  |  Link
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madVR Stats issue

After applying the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update 1709, madVR display rate switching appears to be working with MPC-HC 1.7.13 64 bit, but stats appear to indicate an incorrect refresh rate. For example 23.976 fps source material is showing a refresh rate of 29.97. I have the same issue with both madVR v91.11 and v92.8.

Can someone point me to what is causing this, and suggest a solution? I haven't seen anything obviously wrong in the madVR setup. Display rate switching is set for 1920x1080 resolution.

TIA.

Edit: The issue appears to be a result of Intel HD Graphics Iris 640 driver v4749 installed by Microsoft's implementation of the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update 1709. While at some point this driver version may have been available for download from Intel I could find no trace of it there today. Reverting to an earlier driver version that I knew was working well with Windows 10 v1703 has resolved the stats issue. N.B. from what I could establish from the Intel HD Graphics control panel the madVR refresh rate switching was working correctly with the Iris 640 driver v4749, and it was the stats display that was not.

Last edited by raymondjpg; 30th October 2017 at 05:19.
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:53   #46940  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Concerning "reduce random noise" it's still not my cup of tea, too much details are blurred during the process.
Reduce Random Noise is more like, make this picture ever so slightly softer to hide what we think might be noise, need multi frame processing for the real deal so I won't personally ever use RRN.
Gimme a Spatial-Temporal Denoiser though and I'm all over it because those results are godly.
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