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Old 10th November 2015, 19:37   #34201  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Have you activated any other sharpening algo in addition SuperRes? If yes, running everything at every 2x step might produce different results. But if you're only using SuperRes without any additional sharpening, then (the last time I checked) running SuperRes only once produces identical or slightly better results than running it on every 2x step. If you have a different opinion (when just using SuperRes, no other sharpeners), please show me comparison screenshots
Fair enough, well I'm still experimenting with the four new features and I would thoroughly enjoy the ability to try them in combo with 2X SR in order to decide where that gets me so I would still enjoy a way to force it if any possible please

It might just be that 2X SR alone actually oversharpened the picture, which would also explain why sxbr25 was all it took sometimes but there's really only one way to find out how that would react in combo with the new options and I might have already reached videophool territories at this point coz PQ kills anyway heh.

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Old 10th November 2015, 20:18   #34202  |  Link
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Sharpen Edges is preferable to AdaptiveSharpen because it is less artificial in appearance.
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Old 10th November 2015, 20:50   #34203  |  Link
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So all four sharpeners can be used at the same time? I am already using such low values. Obviously, my threshold for artificial sharpening is very low.
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Old 10th November 2015, 22:06   #34204  |  Link
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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
Unless this is a case of Placebo effect, I would say yes, they are active in my odd-ball situation. I am sure that with the downscaling nature of my settings (ultimately that is the final step) SuperRes and the 4 new refinements do have a noticeable impact since downscaling does tend to make things a little softer (unless I am mistaken in that assumption).

It does seem like overkill but there is a very noticeable improvement when they y is doubled and then downscaled compared to just using Jinc to upscale it directly.

I too am still just testing these settings out. I will see what all 4 look like without SuperRes... heck I will even go way back and look at Jinc again as a direct upscale for the y (it has been a long time since NNEDI3 was introduced)
Great, let us know what you find!

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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
The new sharpen algorithm is better than the old adaptive sharpen, because it feels cleaner and more consistent. It's also better than crispen edges because it doesn't alias very much at all. (However, it's wtf expensive right now, hopefully that will change by a lot. It's not worth the performance hit at all, since it costs about the same as switching from superxbr to nnedi3)
Ok, thanks. Yes, I know performance sucks atm, but there's significant room for improvement there. Consider the current build a "proof of concept", not an optimized implementation.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Fair enough, well I'm still experimenting with the four new features and I would thoroughly enjoy the ability to try them in combo with 2X SR in order to decide where that gets me so I would still enjoy a way to force it if any possible please

It might just be that 2X SR alone actually oversharpened the picture, which would also explain why sxbr25 was all it took sometimes but there's really only one way to find out how that would react in combo with the new options and I might have already reached videophool territories at this point coz PQ kills anyway heh.
I think you didn't understand me: Running SuperRes every 2x upscaling step simply doesn't do anything. It looks pretty much the same as running it only once after upscaling is complete. So it's a total waste of performance to run it after every 2x upscaling step. As I said, if you think I'm wrong then please provide screenshot proof, using an older madVR build (please keep AdaptiveSharpen/FineSharp/LumaSharpen disabled for those screenshots).

I'm not willing to spend any time on adding hacks for something that I'm sure is useless. So you'll have to provide some evidence to make me change my mind. Providing screenshot proof should cost you less time than it would cost me to add a hack for you. So if you're not willing to provide proof, then I'm not willing to add a hack. Sounds fair?

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Sharpen Edges is preferable to AdaptiveSharpen because it is less artificial in appearance.
Thanks, I like to hear that.

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
So all four sharpeners can be used at the same time? I am already using such low values. Obviously, my threshold for artificial sharpening is very low.
Yes, you can use them all at the same time. They change different attributes of the image, so they don't compete against each other very much (maybe "crispen edges" competes a bit with "sharpen edges"). It's very important to differ between image enhancement and upscaling refinement, though. Upscaling makes the image rather soft (even when using NNEDI3), so after upscaling you can apply a lot more sharpening than you can before upscaling. I would be careful which algos to enable by default before upscaling (= image enhancements) at which strengths. There's much more room for sharpening in upscaling refinement.
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Old 10th November 2015, 22:14   #34205  |  Link
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so when using both image enhancement and upscaling refinement, are both sharpeners then used twice? one time as general image enhancement and a 2nd time after upscaling? or how would this work?
and if you ticked one sharpener for image enhancement and a different one for upscaling refinement, would both then used? or is one of them disgarded? (e.g. the one with image enhancement in case image enhancement would get disabled if upscaling refinement is used as well at the same time)
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Old 10th November 2015, 22:18   #34206  |  Link
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Image enhancement is applied before scaling, upscaling refinement is applied after upscaling. So yes, if you activate both, and then upscale, both will be applied separately ("twice"). At least that's the case atm. I have some ideas how to maybe streamline the whole thing, but the algos will need improvements before I can do that.
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Old 10th November 2015, 22:24   #34207  |  Link
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they "stack". i just totally destroyed a image using 4.0 thin edges 4.0 on both.

for better quality you should stick to upscaling refinement only.
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Old 10th November 2015, 23:14   #34208  |  Link
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I think that we should probably not use image enhancements if there's any upscaling (and especially superres) involved, but that it can look pretty good at low strength for native pixel material. I'm using different profiles (srcWidth=1920 or not) to manage which set of settings gets applied.
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Old 10th November 2015, 23:31   #34209  |  Link
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I have a pretty general question about scaling which I think people in this thread are likely well positioned to answer, but apologies if this goes too far off topic. Basically, I'm wondering if you have an HD source which itself has been upscaled from SD but using a poor algorithm (e.g. bilinear), is there likely to be any benefit in downscaling it back to SD and re-upscaling it using a better algorithm? Or would it always look worse?
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Old 10th November 2015, 23:45   #34210  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Image enhancement is applied before scaling, upscaling refinement is applied after upscaling. So yes, if you activate both, and then upscale, both will be applied separately ("twice"). At least that's the case atm. I have some ideas how to maybe streamline the whole thing, but the algos will need improvements before I can do that.
A good way to streamline image enhancements and upscaling refinement options is to combine the two into a category called "Image Sharpening" or "Post-process Sharpening" and separate them into "Pre-resize" and "Post-resize." One category to rule them all.
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Old 11th November 2015, 00:44   #34211  |  Link
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I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?

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Old 11th November 2015, 01:09   #34212  |  Link
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I have a pretty general question about scaling which I think people in this thread are likely well positioned to answer, but apologies if this goes too far off topic. Basically, I'm wondering if you have an HD source which itself has been upscaled from SD but using a poor algorithm (e.g. bilinear), is there likely to be any benefit in downscaling it back to SD and re-upscaling it using a better algorithm? Or would it always look worse?
I'm pretty sure yes, but you'd need to use a fancy algorithm like deblinear to undo the upscale. Otherwise, you introduce artifacts when you upscale with the bilinear, then introduce even more when you downscale with something that isn't its exact inverse. Oh, and you'd need to know the source resolution of the master before it was upscaled poorly.
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Old 11th November 2015, 02:05   #34213  |  Link
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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?

QB
i did a short test and no didn't worked.

i don't know if sharpening is better done after downscaling or not but i guess it is.
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Old 11th November 2015, 03:57   #34214  |  Link
leeperry
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I think you didn't understand me: Running SuperRes every 2x upscaling step simply doesn't do anything. It looks pretty much the same as running it only once after upscaling is complete. So it's a total waste of performance to run it after every 2x upscaling step. As I said, if you think I'm wrong then please provide screenshot proof, using an older madVR build (please keep AdaptiveSharpen/FineSharp/LumaSharpen disabled for those screenshots).
Oh, so we're back to the "pretty much"/"more or less" argument

"screenshot proof"? I don't think there is such as thing as a "ground truth" concept when it comes to subjective settings such as sharpening? Otherwise there would be no strength option to those four new features to begin with?

What would change your mind exactly? Using a 1080p reference, downscaling it to anything using 960x540 using CR AR LL and then showing differences with 2X SR checked?

I just did a whole bunch of A/B comparisons on DVD'ish-resolution noisy movies in .13 with sxbr25+SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66) and I far prefer having 2X SR checked because it does look like double SR filtering to me, I mean I do get double-SR and high motion looks less edgy and a whole lot smoother(30fps@60Hz with Reclock) when the option is checked.

You admitted that 2X SR might make sense when other sharpening refinements are checked and it would make total sense to me to have SR pick the best looking frames after every 2X upscale, I think an extra checkbox as to whether the end-user wants SR going 2X as well would make perfect sense.

NNEDI3 is the real GPU hog, my HD7850 doesn't break a sweat when 2X SR is enabled and either way the PQ improvement totally warrants the extra GPU load(which is very low anyway).

I'm far more convinced by 2X SR than the four new features tbh because SR is just much more technically advanced to my eyes, ensuring that only the best frames are selected instead of trying to polish a turd so to speak.

I'm not interested in what "sharpen edges" and "crispen edges" have to offer, "thin edges" might be worth looking into and I'm not sure about "enhancing details" yet but then again I've never been interested in regular sharpening filters, I only like SR because it's a lot smarter than a regular sharpness knob and it looks outstanding in motion.

Long story short 2X is totally worth the extra GPU load to my eyes, at least with Reclock on a LCD screen and "thin edges" might allow sxbr to look thin like NNEDI3.

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Old 11th November 2015, 08:35   #34215  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I'm far more convinced by 2X SR than the four new features tbh because SR is just much more technically advanced to my eyes, ensuring that only the best frames are selected instead of trying to polish a turd so to speak.
You seem to be misunderstanding something, SR doesn't pick anything, it just works with the one frame. Or, to use your terminology, it's just really good at polishing turds.
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Old 11th November 2015, 08:49   #34216  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
A good way to streamline image enhancements and upscaling refinement options is to combine the two into a category called "Image Sharpening" or "Post-process Sharpening" and separate them into "Pre-resize" and "Post-resize." One category to rule them all.
I have a better plan (I think), but as I said, it won't work without doing some improvement to the algos first.

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I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?
No.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Oh, so we're back to the "pretty much"/"more or less" argument

"screenshot proof"? I don't think there is such as thing as a "ground truth" concept when it comes to subjective settings such as sharpening? Otherwise there would be no strength option to those four new features to begin with?
We're back at "leeperry argues and argues and fails to provide any screenshots", as usual. This is my 3rd reply to your request, and you still didn't provide any screenshots. You're wasting my time by debating and debating and not doing what I asked for already in the my first reply to you, namely providing some screenshots.

All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
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Old 11th November 2015, 10:36   #34217  |  Link
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next file is not properly played

When next file in a directory is played then the audio is played only. The video freezes at the previous file. I mean, I have several files in single directory. I use mpc-hc with option to play next file in the directory after playback of the actual file ends. When the next file should be automatically played then the audio starts correctly. However, the video freezes at the last frame of the previously ended file. The same happens when I skip to the next file manually (video freezes at the last played frame of the previous file). I found out that this started with madvr 0.89.13. It is present in all subsequent releases 0.89.14-16. The problem is not present in 0.89.12. I started having the problem while running mpc-hc 1.7.9.190. Now I use mpc-hc 1.7.9.202 and it makes no change. I also use reclock 1.8.8.5. All software is 32-bit, running on Windows 7 64-bit (running geforce drivers 358.91, problem was seen also on 358.50).
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Old 11th November 2015, 13:02   #34218  |  Link
leeperry
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You seem to be misunderstanding something, SR doesn't pick anything, it just works with the one frame. Or, to use your terminology, it's just really good at polishing turds.
Yes exactly, 2X does a more efficient double filtering and yields less noise in the end providing smoother motion thanks to the cleaner edges. Sharpening noise doesn't work.

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We're back at "leeperry argues and argues and fails to provide any screenshots", as usual. This is my 3rd reply to your request, and you still didn't provide any screenshots. You're wasting my time by debating and debating and not doing what I asked for already in the my first reply to you, namely providing some screenshots.

All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
Last time I spent forever providing screenshots you dismissed them so I'm asking about a procedure that would make sense to you for a change.

We are indeed back at the "it looks more or less the same" argument on your part but again at this rate a lot of options in mVR are redundant, especially when it comes to chroma.

2X SR doesn't look "pretty much the same" by a long shot with noisy SD on my rig and you agreed that it made sense when extra refinements options were enabled so I don't understand why the sudden decision to disable it

So if I enable 0.1 "thin edges", I get 2X SR? I guess I could live with that.

And we're also back at the argument that I'm big enough to run scripts on my side(lucky me I don't have to justify my VST plugins chain in ffdshow to anyone) and that I'll have to waste time proving my point again when the difference is *very* obvious in motion on my rig and that this option had been there since the beginning for a good reason. Oh well, as a ground truth isn't needed this time I'll try to find noisy material that shows cleaner edges with 2X SR.


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Old 11th November 2015, 15:45   #34219  |  Link
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don't change the gamma to fix crushed blacks. use the custom levels for it. way more effective and it "doesn't" change the gamma of the picture
Thanks for the suggestion, huhn, I'll try it out.
But what can be the difference at the viewer's point? I mean we already modified the gamma on the TV to 2.4.

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In my case, on my TV I find 2.2 too bright overall, and 2.4 (even though it comes out of black very quickly, shadow areas are far too bright with both 2.2 and 2.4) a bit too dark overall and a bit too contrasty. Setting the TV to 2.2 and having MadVR apply a 2.35 gamma curve seems just about perfect.
That's pretty interesting. I thought it should be almost the same with: TV 2.4 and mdvr default gamma (2.2).
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Old 11th November 2015, 16:13   #34220  |  Link
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Thanks for the suggestion, huhn, I'll try it out.
But what can be the difference at the viewer's point? I mean we already modified the gamma on the TV to 2.4.
this just fixed crushed blacks. without really touching the gamma curve.

why do a double gamma correction that shouldn't even fix issue like that?

and don't even assume you get the gamma you setup in a TV. without calibration and a meter you don't know what you get and you can assume you have more of an S curve gamma than anything else.

for a dark room you should aim at 2.4 anyway.

Last edited by huhn; 11th November 2015 at 22:35.
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