Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

View Poll Results: Which image format will see a wide adoption?
AV1 20 35.09%
HEVC 8 14.04%
WebP 2 3.51%
JPEG XL 1 1.75%
JPEG XR 1 1.75%
Daala 1 1.75%
FLIF 2 3.51%
PIK 3 5.26%
JPEG will reign forever 24 42.11%
I don't know/don't care 10 17.54%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd March 2018, 18:04   #1  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,296
Which image format will see wide adoption? (Poll)

Which image format will see wide adoption? And why?

Last edited by IgorC; 2nd March 2018 at 18:15.
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2018, 20:29   #2  |  Link
bstrobl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 52
HEVC/HEIF and other JPEG variants are patent encumbered. No go for many.
Normal JPEG is solid and while not perfect especially in compression efficiency, will reign supreme for a good while to come simply because everyone supports it, just like mp3.
WebP is simply not much of an improvement over JPEG.
PIK while retaining good texture has annoying ringing artifacts at edges, which tend to be more noticeable to an average person.
AV1/AVIF has the best chances of succeeding if the implementation does not get screwed up. It needs lossless mode, alpha channels, animation support etc. to replace JPG, PNG, GIF. If it can't be the format to rule them all, its adoption rate will slow by quite a bit, since many will likely ignore it if it's just another support burden(see webp, compression improvements alone does not make a good replacement). It helps if lots of companies stand behind it and implementation and design issues are properly ironed out, however the release should be a solid 1.0 implementation with everything included, not like webp (wtf is version 0.6.1 of a codec with a likely 20 year lifetime supposed to be???).
bstrobl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2018, 22:40   #3  |  Link
burfadel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,235
JPEG's in reference to pictures is easier to say than AV1's or HEVC's. It needs to be great quality, efficient, fast, practical, and have a good name. Marketing also helps, proprietory formats have the support of the patent owners to spruik the virtues of the format.
burfadel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2018, 00:38   #4  |  Link
hajj_3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstrobl View Post
HEVC/HEIF and other JPEG variants are patent encumbered. No go for many.
JpegXL will be patent free for the baseline profile, just like regular old jpeg.

Last edited by hajj_3; 3rd March 2018 at 18:01.
hajj_3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2018, 10:19   #5  |  Link
Jamaika
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 517
Which image format will see a wide adoption?
https://caniuse.com/#feat=jpeg2000
https://caniuse.com/#feat=webp
https://caniuse.com/#feat=heif
https://caniuse.com/#feat=jpegxr
None. Each browser has its own format and does not intend to use another. These are patents and profits from this.
Jamaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2018, 17:00   #6  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,296
My vote goes for AV1 and/or JPEG XL.
Good thing that all open source projects share a lot of compression techniques between them. AV1 has Daala code, JPEG XL will have at least some of them from both and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hajj_3 View Post
JpegXR will be patent free for the baseline profile, just like regular old jpeg.
You probably mean JPEG XL wichi will have royalty-free patent licensing

JPEG XR is a Microsoft thing, patented and supported only by them (Internet Explorer and Edge browser).
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2018, 23:26   #7  |  Link
dipje
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 263
Just guessing here but isn't jpeg xr royalty free / free to use ? Didn't read the commercial licensing terms in the GitHub repo.
They called it HDPhoto before and it became jpeg xr when it got standardized isn't it ?

The format got my vote but since it existed for years and didn't see any adoption (well, I know of affinity photo, photomatix HDR and Capture 1) I don't think it will be 'the winner '.
dipje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2018, 15:43   #8  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,296
JPEG XR wasn't much better than JPEG at medium/high bitrates. Later WebP and mozjpeg were released. They had higher quality at those rates.

https://xooyoozoo.github.io/yolo-oct...ht&jxr=l&jpg=l
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2018, 15:55   #9  |  Link
Sparktank
47.952fps@71.928Hz
 
Sparktank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 867
As much as I love hearing about new formats and the possibilities, I've given up hopes that industries will strive to reach the full potential of even existing formats.

GIF is a complete mess right now.
GIF is still the most compatible (albeit, slowest) format, even though using video formats for HMTL5 is a lot better.

The video section is even worse.
That's not even including a lot of the forks for the open-source browsers that create their own projects.

I think JPEG will be around forever.
But, it would be nice if some sites even give the option for various formats (given that the new format is from their hi-res source file and just not a conversion from JPG to whatever).
__________________
Win10 (x64) build 17134 | GPU Caps Viewer 1.40.1.0
NVIDIA GeForce GT 1030 (GP108) 2047MB/GDDR5 | (R417.22)
NTSC | DVD: R1 | BD: A
Sparktank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2018, 17:14   #10  |  Link
Phanton_13
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 93
But what you mean by wide adoption? because some times can be a lot of hiden adoption, this is clear with vorbis as is supported and used more than people think, this hiden use is mainly as a asset format and not as interchange format.

Last edited by Phanton_13; 5th March 2018 at 17:17.
Phanton_13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th March 2018, 09:02   #11  |  Link
iwod
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorC View Post
My vote goes for AV1 and/or JPEG XL.
Good thing that all open source projects share a lot of compression techniques between them. AV1 has Daala code, JPEG XL will have at least some of them from both and so on.


You probably mean JPEG XL wichi will have royalty-free patent licensing

JPEG XR is a Microsoft thing, patented and supported only by them (Internet Explorer and Edge browser).
I just look at the PR and it seems JPEG XL work hasn't even started.
iwod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th March 2018, 13:07   #12  |  Link
dapperdan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwod View Post
I just look at the PR and it seems JPEG XL work hasn't even started.
Also, they don't have a credible plan to actually deliver a royalty-free baseline. H.264 was supposed to have a royalty-free baseline too. Then, much later, after all the work was done they asked the patent holders and they said, "No".

I believe Apple tried to resurrect that royalty-free baseline for H.264 when web video and VP8 started becoming a thing, but again they failed to convince all the relevant patent holders.

If they even boldly stated that royalty-free baseline was non-negotiable for XL then I'd maybe assume they'd come up with some process to get there, but it was (in the doc I read) stated like a wishy-washy dream rather than a concrete goal.
dapperdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th March 2018, 18:03   #13  |  Link
iwod
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post

If they even boldly stated that royalty-free baseline was non-negotiable for XL then I'd maybe assume they'd come up with some process to get there, but it was (in the doc I read) stated like a wishy-washy dream rather than a concrete goal.
I wish they do that. If it is not royalty free, then there is no point starting it. Unless it gives another 30% reduction then AV1.
iwod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2018, 00:50   #14  |  Link
raffriff42
Retried Guesser
 
raffriff42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,377
Once AI deep learning image compression is released for public use, all other compression schemes will fade away fairly quickly (both lossy and lossless)

(all compression === predicting the next bit of data so you don't have to store it. In the near future AI will do this prediction much better than Huffmann, DCT, wavelets etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutter_Prize
"The organizers believe that text compression and AI are equivalent problems."

Deep Learning Image Compression
https://www.google.com/search?q=deep...ge+compression

(Actually, AI will be too slow for many purposes. There's still room for traditional compression schemes. For a while.)
raffriff42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2018, 02:41   #15  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,296
I agree. Artificial intelligence looks very promising.

Opus is one of the first formats to implement AI https://people.xiph.org/~jm/demo/rnnoise/

Upcoming 1.3 beta 2 will be much better for speech/music recognition and speech coding.
Results are astonishing.

Last edited by IgorC; 9th March 2018 at 02:45.
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2018, 11:57   #16  |  Link
iwod
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorC View Post
I agree. Artificial intelligence looks very promising.

Opus is one of the first formats to implement AI https://people.xiph.org/~jm/demo/rnnoise/

Upcoming 1.3 beta 2 will be much better for speech/music recognition and speech coding.
Results are astonishing.
Sorry for going off topic, but these seems to be Noise Removal only. What does it do to normal Music encoding like CD Ripping?
iwod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th March 2018, 13:46   #17  |  Link
raffriff42
Retried Guesser
 
raffriff42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,377
Noise reduction takes a damaged or partial source and tries to reconstruct the original.
AI has the potential to become very, very good at this.
Having a way to perfectly denoise means you can apply stronger lossy compression and still recover a good signal.
(thanks IgorC for making me see this)
raffriff42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2018, 02:04   #18  |  Link
IgorC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwod View Post
Sorry for going off topic, but these seems to be Noise Removal only. What does it do to normal Music encoding like CD Ripping?

Opus is a hybrid codec. It based on enhanced SILK speech codec and CELT music/general purpose codec. It can use SILK or CELT or Hybrid(SILK+CELT for different frequency ranges) for each audio frame

We (humans) are smart enough to detect whether it's speech or music.
How can You transmit that to program like codec?
That's where RNN comes with its perfect speech/music classification.

Current version of Opus (1.2) hasn't perfect speech/music detection.
But that will change.
IgorC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2018, 09:03   #19  |  Link
foxyshadis
ангел смерти
 
foxyshadis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
Posts: 9,392
JPEG XL is as dead as dead gets. JPEG XR is on life support, but still being pushed by Microsoft and a few other vendors, with a legally-binding patent-protection clause forever, which is as good as free in my book. I think XR still has a chance. JPEG XT, which is a layer on top of JPEG, will probably disappear into obscurity as everyone realizes it's encumbered and inefficient.

If I had money on a single format, it'd be HEIC, or its more general cousin HEIF. Not because of inherent technical advantages, although it is a particularly well-designed format, but mostly because Apple has adopted it and that heavily tilts in any format's favor. I hope AV1 gets here with a standardized format quickly, but I see the world standardizing on HEIC soon (or HEIF for those who don't want to pay the HEVC royalties) as a JPEG alternative on the path of least resistance.
__________________
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. ~ Ed Howdershelt
foxyshadis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2018, 15:26   #20  |  Link
Jamaika
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxyshadis View Post
If I had money on a single format, it'd be HEIC, or its more general cousin HEIF. Not because of inherent technical advantages, although it is a particularly well-designed format, but mostly because Apple has adopted it and that heavily tilts in any format's favor. I hope AV1 gets here with a standardized format quickly, but I see the world standardizing on HEIC soon (or HEIF for those who don't want to pay the HEVC royalties) as a JPEG alternative on the path of least resistance.
Oh, and where is the HEIF software running under Windows correctly. What is on github simply doesn't work.
MediaInfo admittedly added images BPG to the software, but HEIF isn't interested. FFmpeg also.
Jamaika is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.