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Old 17th April 2009, 22:16   #401  |  Link
ericgur
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
the 3DLUT is for performing color gamut correction, so we could get accurate colors within our display's color gamut, which usually is different (in some cases much more wider) than the source's color gamuts.
I understood you perfectly, but the actual use case is not clear to me. As far as I know, when a TV/projector recieves RGB, it assumes a certain gamut (PAL/NTSC/sRGB) and display a given 8 bit RGB value as specified by that gamut even its native gamut is larger. This is improtant for color accuracy. The TV via post processing (e.g. Saturation control) can create colors outside the PAL/NTSC gamut. New TVs which support xvyCC (via HDMI 1.3) can also display an extended gamut, but xvYCC is passed as YCbCr not RGB.
PC monitors are another issue - but the use case for MadVR is for HTPCs not desktops.
Using current OSes (XP, Vista) how does manipulating the gamut helps? You can't expand it, only shrink it even further.

In order to output a wide gamut you'll need OS support for outputing YCbCr without ever going to RGB.

Am I missing something here? Are you reffering to using the EDID information from the display? Doesn't the GPU driver already do this if EDID information is valid?
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Old 17th April 2009, 22:36   #402  |  Link
FoLLgoTT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
Using current OSes (XP, Vista) how does manipulating the gamut helps? You can't expand it, only shrink it even further.
Yes, this is what we want. There are projectors and other displays out there which have a wide native gamut which can not be shrinked to the ITU-R Rec. BT.709 (or BT.601), because the devices lack the necessary option. So the saturation of the primaries and certain color combinations are way too high when watching Blu-ray's or DVD's. The picture looks not as it is intended to. Our goal is to achieve the BT.709 as close as possible.
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Old 17th April 2009, 23:41   #403  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
I understood you perfectly, but the actual use case is not clear to me.
...
You can't expand it, only shrink it even further.
...
Am I missing something here?
Yes, like FoLLgoTT said, we don't want to expand the color gamuts (that's not possible) we want to shrink them.
If you want to see it in pictures go here.
You can see two pictures of my projector. The outer white triangle is my projector's color gamut, the interior triangles, are the standard's color gamut.
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Old 17th April 2009, 23:52   #404  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
Yes, like FoLLgoTT said, we don't want to expand the color gamuts (that's not possible) we want to shrink them.
from the same thread, this screenshot on the JVC RS1/HD1 has the native gamut checked as "reference" in Color.HCFR, and you can read that the man is quite happy : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...4&postcount=90

ppl on HCFR are ecstatic when they find out about this, wide gamut is evil on SMPTE-C movies....your PS script is saving lives I tell you

Last edited by leeperry; 18th April 2009 at 01:30.
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Old 18th April 2009, 03:48   #405  |  Link
jmone
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Can you force MadVR to be loaded as the default Video Renderer in the same sort of way Reclock can be loaded as the default Audio Renderer for all apps?
Thanks
Nathan
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Old 18th April 2009, 13:42   #406  |  Link
ericgur
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Originally Posted by jmone View Post
Can you force MadVR to be loaded as the default Video Renderer in the same sort of way Reclock can be loaded as the default Audio Renderer for all apps?
Thanks
Nathan
Short answer - no.
Some players like Media Player 9-11 and Media Center load specific renderers. PowerDVD and WinDVD have their own built-in renderers. In some players you can specify the renderer (e.g. ZoomPlayer). DirectShow filters in general can declare a 'merit' - this value is used by the DirectShow architecture when building graphs automatically. The higher the merit - the most likely the filter will be used in a graph.
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Old 18th April 2009, 18:00   #407  |  Link
tetsuo55
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Hi madshi,

i am about to buy some new hardware, and your renderer has got me thinking twice about which videocard to buy.

Here is what i use my pc for:

*SD(xvid/realmedia) playback with upconversion to fullhd (my current cpu can hardly keep up with ffdshow's processing)
*DVD with deinterlacing and upconversion
*non-full hd(hdready) to fullhd scaling
*fullhd native (should be 1:1)

I already know that a difficult high bitrate h264 + TrueHD/DTS-MA decoding requires a +/- 3ghz C2D cpu.


Now, i'm guessing that madVR will do the whole upconvert-to-bear-hd thing in an upcoming version(it's almost there now anyway), What kind of CPU+Videocard combination should i at least be looking at to get all the features you have planned working?
(PS i doubt it matters at the moment, but my display supports up to 12bit over hdmi)
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Old 18th April 2009, 22:29   #408  |  Link
leeperry
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well, there'll never be any DXVA in mVR as I understand it so CoreAVC CUDA would be a great asset IMHO.

BTW, my HR/mVR comparison on the previous page was...just that. the slight gamma difference is mostly due to ConvertToYUY2() I guess, or the difference in the YV12>RGB32 pipeline between the 2.

to truly compare 8bit/16bit dithered, I'd have to either try a 8bit LUT in mVR(prolly not supported) or use the same exact HR setup w/ both types of LUT, and then it'd make sense.

prolly w/ these settings in the Avisynth filter of ffdshow, w/ a 16-235 input and a LUT that does PC conversion+BT709 RGB :
Code:
yv12toyuy2(itype=2,threads=4)
t3dlut("C:\LUT.3dlut",threads=4)
there's many arguments for t3dlut() but they don't sound too familiar to me

BTW, the 16bit LUT doesn't use any CPU cycles in mVR, right?

Last edited by leeperry; 18th April 2009 at 22:38.
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Old 18th April 2009, 22:44   #409  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgur View Post
Short answer - no.
Some players like Media Player 9-11 and Media Center load specific renderers. PowerDVD and WinDVD have their own built-in renderers. In some players you can specify the renderer (e.g. ZoomPlayer). DirectShow filters in general can declare a 'merit' - this value is used by the DirectShow architecture when building graphs automatically. The higher the merit - the most likely the filter will be used in a graph.
Umm....long answer yes?

Reclock manages to spoof the id's of the default directshow Audio Renderer and can be setup to get loaded in all situations (it used to be a bit of a PITA to control the damn thing).

But this sort of thing is a long way down the track. Once Madshi has implemented smoothness controls, MadVR will be ready for primetime, but at the moment he hasn't and it's too jerky.

Last edited by Mark_A_W; 18th April 2009 at 23:43.
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Old 18th April 2009, 22:57   #410  |  Link
leeperry
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Once Madshi has implemented smoothness controls, MadVR will be ready for primetime, but at the moment he hasn't and it's too jerky.
all went fine for me in the past days, but yesterday it started great, and after 1H it dropped frames like crazy....like VMR9/EVR always do in MPC on XP in non-exclusive mode

this type of issue happens on many boxes(not just mine), mostly w/o exclusive mode XP can't keep up w/ the tight Reclock timings I think...only HR can, and only if you catch the VSYNC fliptime properly(which is pretty hard to begin with)

but yeah, this renderer is only a week old and madshi's got more tricks than a clown's pocket

Beliyaal has found a way to NEVER miss the VSYNC fliptime in VMR9/EVR from what I've seen, so it's all possible I guess...just requires some maad coding skillz

Last edited by leeperry; 18th April 2009 at 23:38.
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Old 19th April 2009, 03:08   #411  |  Link
Rectal Prolapse
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I don't think madVR could ever be set as a "default" video renderer until it supports the subpicture/subtitle pin.
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Old 19th April 2009, 14:30   #412  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
The biggest advantage of the 3DLUT is that you know that it will never use more GPU resources that it currently uses.
Its biggest disadvantage, is the size.
The decision is yours. At any time, cr3dlut's code could be transformed in shader code, it would not be a very hard task...
I still don't like the idea. Personally, I've no clue how gamut correction works. So whenever there's a bug I'd have to work on a shader code for formulas I don't understand. No, I prefer using an external tool. If anything goes wrong (like the problems leeperry reported), it's not my responsibility to fix it, but I can point to someone else (you!) to fix it... Having cr3dlut external means that I can save any work related on 3dlut stuff. Plus, I still think that doing gamut correction via shaders would eat more resources than doing a simple 3D texture lookup. I'm less concerned with startup time and more concerned with playback experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmone View Post
Can you force MadVR to be loaded as the default Video Renderer in the same sort of way Reclock can be loaded as the default Audio Renderer for all apps?
Currently no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post
i am about to buy some new hardware, and your renderer has got me thinking twice about which videocard to buy.
Personally, I'm planning to get an ATI HD4770 (released planned for early May) because the combination of power consumption (-> fan noise), performance and price looks extremely attractive to me. I'm not aware of any NVidia graphics cards which can hold up with the 4770 in terms of performance per Watt.

Also, I'm planning to get a low power Intel Quad core, just to be on the safe side of things. Maybe one of those new Xenons which have a really low TDP.

Probably the combination of Quad core Intel + 4770 is much more than is really needed. But I don't know yet which hardware is exactly required for madVR. We will only be able to say once basic playback works perfectly including smooth playback features. Only after that we can collect data on which combination of CPU and GPU works and which doesn't.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
BTW, the 16bit LUT doesn't use any CPU cycles in mVR, right?
Right. Except loading the 3dlut file at startup time, of course.
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Old 19th April 2009, 14:34   #413  |  Link
madshi
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madVR 0.5 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* DVD playback should work now, too
* improved switching times between fullscreen and windowed mode
* improved startup time
* chroma samples are now placed left instead of center luma
* added settings control to switch between TV and PC output levels
* added settings control to enable/disable 3dlut processing
* added settings control for selecting chroma resampling filter
* D3DX9_35.dll is not needed, anymore
* improved display refresh rate detection calculation
* 3dlut and settings file routines are using unicode instead of ansi now
* fixed: aspect ratio calculation truncated instead of rounding
* fixed: aspect ratio changes in the middle of the movie were ignored
Please try whether the display refresh rate detection works good now. It's important because it will later be needed for smooth playback. There's a number written right next to the refresh rate in brackets, e.g. "60Hz (20s)". This is the number of seconds the refresh rate calculation was able to work without any problems. The higher the number the better. Ideally it should simply continue to increase throughout the whole movie duration. The higher this number gets, the more reliable the calculated refresh rate is.
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:13   #414  |  Link
nijiko
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Excute me. Why delete the "disable resample chroma" options?
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:28   #415  |  Link
madshi
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Excute me. Why delete the "disable resample chroma" options?
Because this setting has been superseded by the "Chroma resampling" setting. Set "Chroma resampling" to "Bilinear" to achieve the same result as "disable resample chroma".
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:33   #416  |  Link
nijiko
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There is a problem.
The subtitles can't be loaded when videoclips start playing.
The subtitles must be closed once and opend once, it just can be displayed.
(With VSFilter.dll)
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:53   #417  |  Link
madshi
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Subtitles are not really supported by madVR yet. I know there are some ways to work around that, but I don't have any experience with them, so I can't really help with this problem yet.
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:55   #418  |  Link
nijiko
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So...
Thank you all the same for your great works.

I think pre buffer like 0.4 is better, how about you?
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Old 19th April 2009, 15:58   #419  |  Link
neoufo51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectal Prolapse View Post
I don't think madVR could ever be set as a "default" video renderer until it supports the subpicture/subtitle pin.
The latest SVN release adds support for madVR as a possible renderer.

Quote:
Revision 1048 - Directory Listing
Modified Sat Apr 18 17:39:19 2009 UTC (13 hours, 30 minutes ago) by casimir666
Changed : merge with Beliyaal branch
Added : support for madVR (new Video Renderer)
I guess I'll try this new renderer now.
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Old 19th April 2009, 16:01   #420  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nijiko View Post
I think pre buffer like 0.4 is better
What do you mean with "pre buffer"?
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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