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Old 7th October 2013, 13:13   #20261  |  Link
michkrol
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Question guys... If I am playing a 1080p video at 1080p native res... Is madvr doing anything "more" than other renderers? /excluding smoothmotion, deinterlace
Read the first post.

With default settings maVR does things "better": you get higher quality chroma upscaling (necessary for >95% of content), better precision for calculations (higher quality RGB conversion), possibly better VSync, exclusive mode is great in terms of improved usability, those are probably most important for average user (like me).

With a little tweaking: you get the ability to calibrate your display, correct black levels with broken drivers/codecs/old (incompatible) TVs, switch refresh rate to match video, ability to use xySubFilter (higher quality subtitles and better performance, especially in ASS format), ability to set scaling algorithms to your liking (or hardware restrictions), the list goes on and on
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Old 7th October 2013, 23:33   #20262  |  Link
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Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
Read the first post.

With default settings maVR does things "better": you get higher quality chroma upscaling (necessary for >95% of content), better precision for calculations (higher quality RGB conversion), possibly better VSync, exclusive mode is great in terms of improved usability, those are probably most important for average user (like me).

With a little tweaking: you get the ability to calibrate your display, correct black levels with broken drivers/codecs/old (incompatible) TVs, switch refresh rate to match video, ability to use xySubFilter (higher quality subtitles and better performance, especially in ASS format), ability to set scaling algorithms to your liking (or hardware restrictions), the list goes on and on
Is chroma up-sampled when I'm playing 1080p material to 1080p monitor?

I recall reading some where that chroma is stored in a lower res.. Is that the "upsampling" you're refering to?

I read this a very long time ago..

But I'm building a SINGLE-fan pc for my mother right now, and Just really wondering if a 4770k IGP can cut it for native res. Because I know it doesn't do it @ 2560x1600 on my monitor.

Mom will be using a Large tv panel so it will just run at 1080p, she has old people eyes where she has trouble focusing on things that are close up. hence the large tv.
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Old 7th October 2013, 23:44   #20263  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Is chroma up-sampled when I'm playing 1080p material to 1080p monitor?
Yes. Typical video is stored as 4:2:0 where luma is 4X the resolution of chroma. In order to render it you need to upscale chroma to the resolution of luma.
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Old 8th October 2013, 15:13   #20264  |  Link
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tp4tissues: You might want to give AMD a try if you plan to only use the internal graphics. I put a A10-6700 APU in my HTPC and I can use all the madvr settings I want(at least up to Jinc3).
I haven't done that many test on a 1080p TV since I don't own one, but I did enough test to know that I can play 24p fps 480p, 720p and 1080p content with Jinc3 for both chroma and luma with anti-ringing and smooth motion enabled without any dropped frames.
I only tested 2-3 minutes of each, but I was really impressed that it could handle it.
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Old 8th October 2013, 22:29   #20265  |  Link
michkrol
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I have Core i5-3570K with Intel HD4000 (Ivy Bridge). I watch movies at 1080p, usually DVDs, with SoftCubic chroma and image upscaling without problem. I can even use Jinc3 for image upscaling with 24p content (probably can handle up to 30p), but I just like SoftCubic better for DVDs and other low quality sources.
When it comes to 1080p content at native resolution, my netbook with Celeron 1007U (low voltage Ivy Bridge) with Intel HD (lowest end yesteryear Intel iGPU) can do it without breaking a sweat, as long as I have SmoothMotion disabled, so it shouldn't be a problem. For everything else, if you're willing to sacrifice quality, DXVA2 scaling is lightning-fast with newer Intel iGPUs.

EDIT: The AMD might be a better choice for HTPC, as mentioned by SamKook, but I have no experience with their newer products, hence my post is centered on Intel side.

Last edited by michkrol; 8th October 2013 at 22:37.
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Old 9th October 2013, 03:53   #20266  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamKook View Post
tp4tissues: You might want to give AMD a try if you plan to only use the internal graphics. I put a A10-6700 APU in my HTPC and I can use all the madvr settings I want(at least up to Jinc3).
I haven't done that many test on a 1080p TV since I don't own one, but I did enough test to know that I can play 24p fps 480p, 720p and 1080p content with Jinc3 for both chroma and luma with anti-ringing and smooth motion enabled without any dropped frames.
I only tested 2-3 minutes of each, but I was really impressed that it could handle it.
If you are watching 720p or 1080p content on a 720p TV you cannot use Jinc3 for scaling the image (only the chroma is scaled up). Jinc3 is not an option for downscaling the image so it would be downscaled using something else as set in your downscaling options. I made this same mistake not long ago but when watching 2160p content on a 1440p screen. Jinc3 requires much more GPU power as source and destination resolutions go up.

Edit: Still it is nice to know the APU is fast enough to do Jinc3 chroma to 1080p and then downscale to 720p.

Last edited by Asmodian; 9th October 2013 at 10:14.
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Old 9th October 2013, 08:39   #20267  |  Link
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Any news about x64 Support?
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Old 9th October 2013, 08:54   #20268  |  Link
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Any news about x64 Support?
yes, the answer from madshi is "not anytime soon"
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Old 9th October 2013, 13:49   #20269  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If you are watching 720p or 1080p content on a 720p TV you cannot use Jinc3 for scaling the image (only the chroma is scaled up). Jinc3 is not an option for downscaling the image so it would be downscaled using something else as set in your downscaling options. I made this same mistake not long ago but when watching 2160p content on a 1440p screen. Jinc3 requires much more GPU power as source and destination resolutions go up.

Edit: Still it is nice to know the APU is fast enough to do Jinc3 chroma to 1080p and then downscale to 720p.
I know upscaling isn't used much on my own TV(the res is 1360x768 and I mostly watch 720p content so it's still upscaled a bit) which is why I mentioned that I tried it on a 1080p TV(at my parents house, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my previous post) and it was still able to play them without dropped frames.
I just noticed that I didn't have anti-ringing enabled though contrary to what I though, but I'm going back there this weekend and I'll give it another try.

It also handle downscaling with catmull-rom with anti-ringing and linear light enabled for 1080p stuff on my 720p-ish TV if there was any doubt.
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Old 9th October 2013, 16:47   #20270  |  Link
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I have a feeling that this questions comes up from time to time but I would like to know the right 'video chain' to use for my purpose. What I do is play Blu-Ray material with MPC-BE. I use madVR as renderer and LAV video filter. My display device is a Sony VPL-VW1000ES.

So I think there are 3 things I need to config:

1. madVR: 16-235 or 0-255
2. LAV: TV(16-235) or PC(0-255) or Untouched (as input)
3. Projector HDMI range: AUTO or LIMITED or FULL
4. Intel HD graphics output range FULL or LIMITED

Can you guys point me in the right direction?

Last edited by THX-UltraII; 9th October 2013 at 17:41.
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Old 9th October 2013, 17:57   #20271  |  Link
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Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
I have a feeling that this questions comes up from time to time but I would like to know the right 'video chain' to use for my purpose. What I do is play Blu-Ray material with MPC-BE. I use madVR as renderer and LAV video filter. My display device is a Sony VPL-VW1000ES.

So I think there are 3 things I need to config:

1. madVR: 16-235 or 0-255
2. LAV: TV(16-235) or PC(0-255) or Untouched (as input)
3. Projector HDMI range: AUTO or LIMITED or FULL
4. Intel HD graphics output range FULL or LIMITED

Can you guys point me in the right direction?
0-255, Untouched, Full, Full
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Old 9th October 2013, 19:15   #20272  |  Link
Asmodian
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@SamKook
Ah yes I misunderstood you (your limited testing was on a different screen, of course). It does sound like a great chip for an HTPC. I was just jumping to conclusions assuming what I thought was the same oversight I had recently made.

My GTX Titan goes over 90% doing 2160p@60fps to 1440p with Catmul-Rom+AR+LL image, Jinc3+AR chroma, smooth motion off; not using Jinc3+AR for the image.
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Old 9th October 2013, 19:44   #20273  |  Link
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Madshi,
When running a calibration session with ArgyllCMS and MadTPG, I've noticed that lower level patterns and some green patterns show some kind of blocking that actually moves around when displayed. Is this expected behavior?

I can provide camera screenshots if you need them.

Thanks
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Old 9th October 2013, 20:03   #20274  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
0-255, Untouched, Full, Full
Thanks for your reply. I just heard on the AVS community that the projector I own, the Sony VPL-VW1000ES, has got issues when inputting rgb. Does my software setup (madvr+mpc-be+lav filters+intel hd2000 graphics hdmi out) feeds my projector with rgb or something else?
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Old 9th October 2013, 20:07   #20275  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n3w813 View Post
Madshi,
When running a calibration session with ArgyllCMS and MadTPG, I've noticed that lower level patterns and some green patterns show some kind of blocking that actually moves around when displayed. Is this expected behavior?

I can provide camera screenshots if you need them.

Thanks
Yes, this is expected, I see it too. I understand it is dithering but it does seem rather large for dithering. I wonder what resolution the test image is rendered in?
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Old 9th October 2013, 21:50   #20276  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Yes, this is expected, I see it too. I understand it is dithering but it does seem rather large for dithering. I wonder what resolution the test image is rendered in?
I have also the same thing, I asked madshi about it earlier and he said it's dithering. Seems a bit obvious though, not sure how much it affects the calibration result.
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Old 10th October 2013, 00:24   #20277  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
Thanks for your reply. I just heard on the AVS community that the projector I own, the Sony VPL-VW1000ES, has got issues when inputting rgb. Does my software setup (madvr+mpc-be+lav filters+intel hd2000 graphics hdmi out) feeds my projector with rgb or something else?
on default rgb you can change this in the driver.

madvr outputs rgb and your intel card transforms this to ycbcr with is bad...

if i remenber correct there was a way to output ycbcr with madvr but don't ask me how.

Quote:
2. LAV: TV(16-235) or PC(0-255) or Untouched (as input)
this option does nothing at least with madvr because this is only used when lav changes the colorspace but madvr excepts nearly all colorspaces if not all
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Old 10th October 2013, 10:10   #20278  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
on default rgb you can change this in the driver.

madvr outputs rgb and your intel card transforms this to ycbcr with is bad...

if i remenber correct there was a way to output ycbcr with madvr but don't ask me how.



this option does nothing at least with madvr because this is only used when lav changes the colorspace but madvr excepts nearly all colorspaces if not all
Do you recommend to get a dedicated GPU? If so, which brand supports FULL RGB out for sure? NVIDIA or AMD?
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Old 10th October 2013, 10:43   #20279  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Do you guys happen to have some images/scenes with typical blocking artifacts (I mean those 8x8 MPEG2 blocks)?

If so, I'd appreciate some screenshots. No samples needed for this, screenshots will do fine, but please use PNG and not JPG. Both (1) images with rather light blocking and (2) images with very heavy blocking would be useful. Thanks!
Heavy.



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Old 10th October 2013, 11:37   #20280  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by romulous View Post
I have a DVD that has some menus that madVR does not work correctly with (it doesn't correctly highlight the menu options when you mouse over them - EVR works fine). I'm happy to log it into the tracker, but how would I get you a sample of the menus for you to check with?
Are we talking about LAV Video Decoder? If so, I think it's probably nevcairiel's job to fix this. At least I'd ask him first. If he says it's my problem, then I'll look into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
1. [up] Is there a way to force madVR to switch the monitor to 60 Hz when playing a 29.97 fps video? "1280x1024p60" setting doesn't work.
You've already asked twice, I've already replied twice. If you ignore my replies, then I'll ignore your further questions.

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Originally Posted by Acetyl View Post
Starting from the heaviest.

http://i3.minus.com/ibwRaQWV9q3dPA.png

http://i3.minus.com/itwirQgJUOJJ9.png

http://i6.minus.com/ibrwJ5znJFerut.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skankee View Post
I think this is a sample with a lot of blocking:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/user/131006/3ocxo7er.png
This looks more like mosquito noise, although in one of the images it does have the form of blocks. The blocks I'm looking for should have clear edges in 8x8 size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
My GTX Titan goes over 90% doing 2160p@60fps to 1440p with Catmul-Rom+AR+LL image, Jinc3+AR chroma, smooth motion off; not using Jinc3+AR for the image.
Ouch. I suppose Jinc3AR doesn't work for image upscaling? (Something cheap for chroma.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by n3w813 View Post
When running a calibration session with ArgyllCMS and MadTPG, I've noticed that lower level patterns and some green patterns show some kind of blocking that actually moves around when displayed. Is this expected behavior?

I can provide camera screenshots if you need them.
Dithering should be there, but it should not be visible as "blocking". A screenshot might help clear this up. You don't need to use a digicam for that, a simple PC screenshot should do the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i just mixed them up this is debanded
http://abload.de/img/eva3s2off3tay8.png
http://abload.de/img/eva3s2lowwxl9j.png
http://abload.de/img/eva3s2high4fa8f.png

and this lost detail or get really dark when deband is enabled

http://abload.de/img/eva3s1off93ado.png
http://abload.de/img/eva3s1lowlxzfy.png
http://abload.de/img/eva3s1highc1z64.png
I see. Yes, "high" does lose detail in certain situations. But it also smooths out heavily banded gradiants very nicely. I guess I wouldn't recommend to enable "high" by default for all content. I do aim to have "low" work as a default option, without eating away any detail worth mentioning. Might need some tweaking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
It should be "1024p60" or perhaps "1024p59" to get ~59,93Hz. Anyway you only enter vertical resolution.
You can enter horizontal resolution as well, if you like, if there are different horizontal resolutions available for the same vertical resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephaneM View Post
For shaders to work when using madVR with a C# application (WinForm or WPF) and using a managed interop like Directshow Lib, you'll need to either :

* have DirectX 9c installed
* or have D3DCompiler_43.dll located in the same folder as your executable.
See? I told you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Question guys... If I am playing a 1080p video at 1080p native res... Is madvr doing anything "more" than other renderers? /excluding smoothmotion, deinterlace
As was already mentioned, chroma is upscaled in any case. However, the quality gain can vary between invisible to noticeable, depending on the content, and what your display is doing internally (e.g. does it maintain the full resolution of 4:4:4 input or not).

There are other benefits to madVR you can get with 1080p video at 1080p native res. You already mentioned smoothmotion and deinterlacing. There is also: Full control over decoding matrix and primaries, calibration, high bitdepth processing with dithering as the last step, and fullscreen exclusive mode with multiple pre-rendered frames (which improves playback reliability). More features to come soon, like debanding, for which is a test version already is available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Is that what you want? The last one is the picture I use to test deblock filters because when this kind of filter is too high, it blurs the details on the ground.
Thanks, some of these should be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmpeg View Post
Heavy.
Heavy indeed. Thanks, Ron.

-------

Could use some more samples with light blocking. There are 2 different cases of light blocking:

(1) Only a few artefact blocks spread over the frame, but with hard edges.
(2) Big parts of the image covered in blocks, but the block edges are only barely visible.

Could use samples for both. Thanks!
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