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Old 30th March 2013, 00:33   #18141  |  Link
huhn
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from madshi

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One last hint: There's a new "trade quality for performance" option in the madVR settings which affects the quality of the FRC frame blending. By default frame blending is done in gamma corrected light, which is fast, but not mathematically correct. If your GPU is fast enough, it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality. There are no negative side effects to blending frames in linear light - except for higher GPU usage, of course.
before i even try to answer that
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Old 30th March 2013, 03:30   #18142  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
from madshi before i even try to answer that
That's exactly what I was asking but in a more in-depth manner. madshi says: "it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality" but that highest image quality alone didn't answer me. Does it increase sharpness? Or maybe it makes video playback even less jittery? Maybe it makes motion more fluid? I really didn't notice any difference so I want to know what I can expect from it.
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Old 30th March 2013, 04:09   #18143  |  Link
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That's exactly what I was asking but in a more in-depth manner. madshi says: "it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality" but that highest image quality alone didn't answer me. Does it increase sharpness? Or maybe it makes video playback even less jittery? Maybe it makes motion more fluid? I really didn't notice any difference so I want to know what I can expect from it.
I think it's just the quality of the picture. When the scaling is done in linear instead of gamma light it produces better picture quality than in gamma. (I'm guessing)

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Old 30th March 2013, 04:22   #18144  |  Link
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I see!! What kind of software deinterlacing can I use with madVR then? I guess I'll have to fiddle around with more decoders. I actually prefer yadif to the hardware deinterlacing on my other pc, but this one's cpu can't cut it.

It's at times like this that I wish I forked out for a better card
Thought I'd update to let anyone know. I have been able to get my Radeon 5450 working full screen with hardware deinterlacing, this is with a 1080i 25/576i source. even with softcubic 100/lanzcos3. Obviously no smooth motion, but I got this working by enabling the top option in the trade quality for performance section.

This is while using lav software decoder.

Now it can handle anything I throw at it, given that the hardest load is upscaling and deinterlacing 576i to 1080p. With 1080i sources I can even enable jinc3 for image upscaling.

Windowed mode however won't stop dropping frames no matter what I try.

So a suggestion perhaps would be to have different scaling options depending on source resolution?

Also wanted to thank Madshi for including the performance options saving me a good bit of money in the process.

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Old 30th March 2013, 04:26   #18145  |  Link
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this is not about scaling is about blending. scaling in linear light is not recommend at least not for upscaling.
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Old 30th March 2013, 07:35   #18146  |  Link
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Are there any benefits to using DXVA vs no hardware decoder at all (provided you have a CPU that can handle the processing on its own)?

I'm running an i7 930 @ 4.2Ghz, which handles video pretty well. But I also have a 7950 3GB @ 1150Mhz/1700Mhz. When using DXVA, there's a bit of a lag/loading delay when skipping around video, which isn't present if hardware decoding isn't used. I'm just wondering if there are any benefits to using DXVA (or hardware decoding in general), provided your CPU can handle the task on its own.
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Old 30th March 2013, 07:52   #18147  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Coldblackice View Post
I'm just wondering if there are any benefits to using DXVA (or hardware decoding in general), provided your CPU can handle the task on its own.
Hardware decoding is sometimes more power efficient, but all in all, if your CPU can handle it, then stick to CPU decoding, its more flexible and less error-prone.
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Old 30th March 2013, 08:13   #18148  |  Link
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With DXVA I can get more smoother playback. Funny thing that it seems a bit tricky: for example, I watched a movie and had to enable forced subs and after that I've got the smoothest motion I've ever experienced on my TV. This never happened with SW decoding. Dunno if its somehow related to subs or pause-unpause or something else... I wish I know.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:12   #18149  |  Link
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Using any Intel drivers from the recent 15.31.x releases (15.31.1.3006 to 15.31.2.3055) I have an issue with the info panels (volume, play, stop etc) being left onscreen in the black bar areas.

Disabling exclusive mode fixes the issue as does rolling back to any 15.28.x driver.

I'm running a Clevo P150EM laptop with Intel HD 4000 and Nvidia 680M.

If I can do anything to assist with troubleshooting let me know.
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Old 30th March 2013, 15:17   #18150  |  Link
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Many, many thanks for making my old 50-60Hz projector play everything smoothly, without having to mess with the audio! Really great work. Do you happen to know when it'll be integrated into Media Center?
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Old 30th March 2013, 16:17   #18151  |  Link
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jriver mediacenter has madvr support but it is not free
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Old 30th March 2013, 22:09   #18152  |  Link
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jriver mediacenter has madvr support but it is not free
I know, I was talking about Smooth Motion.

edit: Actually, it can be used in Custom mode, but replacing madVR in MC's folder with the newer version is required, and there are some problems with that.

Last edited by Weirdo; 30th March 2013 at 22:20.
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Old 31st March 2013, 04:15   #18153  |  Link
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I've been trying to figure out how to approach the color management settings in madVR. I've found a lot of contradictory advice in this thread and from Google and am at a loss as to how to calibrate my display and what settings to pick in madVR.

I have:
- 1x wide gamut LCD display (100% sRGB, ~98% AdobeRGB)
- 1x colorimeter w/ ambient light sensor

Based on what I've found, it seems like I need to use ArgyllCMS with TI3Parser to generate a 3DLUT. How should I set the following options:

- White point: 6500K?
- Tone curve: sRGB? BT.709? 2.2? 2.4?
- Ambient light correction: yes? no?
- (TI3Parser) Auto-calibration: yes? no?

Likewise, in madVR after I've obtained the 3DLUT:

- Disable GPU gamma: yes? no?
- Gamma processing: enabled? 2.4? 2.2? BT.709? Power?

Once I've set up my calibration, how can I evaluate it? Am I missing something or going about this in completely the wrong way?
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Old 31st March 2013, 07:28   #18154  |  Link
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The reasons for contradictory advise, is because there are multiple options for going about this. Everybody has their own preferences, and certain displays may yield better results with certain methods. If you are picky, experiment. None of the available solutions for creating madVR 3DLUTs are near-perfect at this point. YMMV.

White point: D65 (x0.312713 y0.329016)
PC & TV: I explicitly set these values.

Tone curve: Personal Preference. First decide or experiment to figure out if you desire a power curve like 2.2, 2.35, 2.4, or a "special" curve like BT.709 or sRGB
PC: I use BT.709
TV: I have a target I aim for, but ultimately whichever curve gives me D65 across the entire range by adjusting hardware controls alone, with roughly a known curve that works with the lighting conditions of that room

Ambient light correction: Yes if using BT.709, otherwise No.
PC: I usually set this to 32 lux to roughly match the controlled D65 lighting I have in this room, which brings the BT.709 gamma to an average of 2.35 or 2.4.
TV: I don't use ArgyllCMS at all. Calibration was already done as desired with hardware controls.

TI3Parser or yCMS: Personal Preference.
PC & TV: I use yCMS, with White Point and Primaries only as measured by ColorHCFR

TI3Parser Auto-calibration: Personal Preference, but in general should only be considered if using a BT.709 or sRGB curve. If you have an custom ICC profile installed, this will requires GPU gamma ramp disabled for Fullscreen Exclusive, and using Overlay instead of Windowed.
PC: I tried using TI3Parser auto-calibration before, but always got worse results than having my GPU lut handle gamma instead.

Gamma processing: Personal Preference.
PC & TV: I've never used this, since I always calibrate my display to the gamma I desire.

How to verify: Video Test Patterns loaded with madVR and measured via something like ColorHCFR in "DVD manual" mode.
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Old 31st March 2013, 08:25   #18155  |  Link
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Why choose D65 over 6500k or vis-a-versa?

How do you determine the appropriate tone curve? Is it display dependent? Environment dependent? Or just personal preference without technical basis?

Is controlled lighting required to use ambient lighting correction with D65?

What is the best approach for TV calibration if there is lots of flexibility in hardware controls already?

If a 3DLUT is utilized, isn't it best to leave gamma ramps disabled in madVR regardless of whether an ICC profile is installed or not because the calibration should be performed without any active ICC profiles in the first place?
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Old 31st March 2013, 09:46   #18156  |  Link
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Why choose D65 over 6500k or vis-a-versa?
Because D65 (~6504K | x0.312713 y0.329016) is expected for video, and when calibrating it's best to have a correct target.

6500K (x0.312779 y0.329183) is essentially a rough approximation of D65, while not being used by anything specifically.


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How do you determine the appropriate tone curve? Is it display dependent? Environment dependent? Or just personal preference without technical basis?
It can be any or all of those things.

Recommended viewing gamma is based on lighting conditions. For dim/dark viewing, a curve which averages anywhere from 2.35 to 2.6 is usually recommended on a technical basis. If you have a bright room, stick with using a gamma around 2.2.

Using 32lux ambient compensated BT.709 curve essentially lightens darkest tones ~1.9 gamma, darkens bright tones ~2.6 gamma, with mid-tones ~2.4 gamma. I find this flatter and less punchy look, which favors shadow detail and reduces white crush as more natural and pleasing than using a power curve. Though occasionally you may run across certain content optimized for viewing using a 2.2 power curve, where a BT.709 curve can look really bad in the dark tones.

If your display is able to do a particular curve smooth and naturally, you'll usually get superior results than forcing it into a drastically different curve it doesn't handle well.

At a certain point, personal preference comes into play, and you may need to make a trade-off somewhere to have a subjectively pleasing viewing experience.


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Is controlled lighting required to use ambient lighting correction with D65?
No it's not required, just recommended if not watching in a dark room. If ambient light is of vastly different color temperature than D65, it will skew your perception of colors because of how the human visual system works.

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What is the best approach for TV calibration if there is lots of flexibility in hardware controls already?
Free option you basically have ColorHCFR. Paid option would be something like CalMAN. Both require you to know what you're doing.

Otherwise, if you have no idea what you're doing, consider paying for an ISF calibration and having someone else do it for you.

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If a 3DLUT is utilized, isn't it best to leave gamma ramps disabled in madVR regardless of whether an ICC profile is installed or not because the calibration should be performed without any active ICC profiles in the first place?
It depends if you took your measurements for the 3DLUT with or without the ICC profile gamma ramp active, as they need to match.

IMHO, if using a BT.709 curve you should just keep your ICC profile gamma ramp active, and not use yCMS grayscale measurements. Your GPU lut does the best job of maintaining the accuracy of a custom gamma curve.

The only time you should consider going the route of disabling gamma ramp is:
A) If you calibrate to a power-curve, are using yCMS grayscale measurement, and intend to use madVR's gamma adjustments.
OR
B) Use nand's tools to merge the ArgyllCMS gamma ramp into a 3DLUT because your GPU gamma ramp was causing noticeable banding.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 31st March 2013 at 09:51.
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Old 31st March 2013, 10:29   #18157  |  Link
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Recommended viewing gamma is based on lighting conditions. For dim/dark viewing, a curve which averages anywhere from 2.35 to 2.6 is usually recommended on a technical basis. If you have a bright room, stick with using a gamma around 2.2.
My friend's TV has a gamma of ~1.4 and it isn't editable (no way of changing tint and the colour/brightness/contrast controls don't alter it). Hard to get used to, haha.
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Old 31st March 2013, 19:45   #18158  |  Link
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
6500K (x0.312779 y0.329183) is essentially a rough approximation of D65, while not being used by anything specifically.
6500K does not have specific coordinates - it is a line.

This image from Wikipedia has 6000K marked rather than 6500K, but you can see how 6000K could be a value that is neutral, or heavily tinted green/magenta. Same thing for 6500K. This is why CCT values are not useful.

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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Using 32lux ambient compensated BT.709 curve essentially lightens darkest tones ~1.9 gamma, darkens bright tones ~2.6 gamma, with mid-tones ~2.4 gamma. I find this flatter and less punchy look, which favors shadow detail and reduces white crush as more natural and pleasing than using a power curve. Though occasionally you may run across certain content optimized for viewing using a 2.2 power curve, where a BT.709 curve can look really bad in the dark tones.
You should not calibrate your display to the BT.709 curve. It is not intended to be used on displays. Generally a 2.4 power curve is accepted to be reference gamma now if your display is capable of more than 10,000:1 contrast. Otherwise use the BT.1886 function.

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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
My friend's TV has a gamma of ~1.4 and it isn't editable (no way of changing tint and the colour/brightness/contrast controls don't alter it). Hard to get used to, haha.
It can be fixed with madVR and 3DLUTs though. (as long as it's not dynamic)
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Old 31st March 2013, 20:15   #18159  |  Link
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I noticed the EDID info for my TV states it has a gamma of 2.5... I was wondering if it is a Power Curve 2.5 or a BT.709 Curve 2.5? It doesn't state what type it is. More of a curiousity than anything else and since we seem to be talking about this now I was hoping one of you guys could shed some light on it

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Old 31st March 2013, 22:15   #18160  |  Link
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You should not calibrate your display to the BT.709 curve. It is not intended to be used on displays. Generally a 2.4 power curve is accepted to be reference gamma now if your display is capable of more than 10,000:1 contrast. Otherwise use the BT.1886 function.
Wow, I did not know about BT.1886, that's a very useful specification as it puts an end to the never ending "2.5 is display gamma, NOT 2.2" debate (which started 3 years before BT.1886 was published). From my understanding of this document, the One True Display Gamma©®™ is actually 2.4.

There's a few things I don't quite understand in the document, however:

- You say "use 2.4 if you have high contrast, BT.1886 otherwise". Thing is, BT.1886 uses a gamma function with… 2.4 as the exponent. What's the difference? Is it because the BT.1884 function has "black compensation" (the "+ b" term)? As far as I'm aware, most calibration software (at the very least HCFR) displays black compensated gamma, i.e. when calculating gamma, L' is used with L' = L - L(black). That would mean that, within such software, the "+ b" is already accounted for and thus your target really is 2.4 as calculated by the software.

- Appendix 2 indicates that "This Recommendation does NOT change any signal parameters defined in Recommendation ITU-R BT.709". The way I understand it, this only makes sense assuming that BT.709 defines the optical → electrical transfer function, while BT.1884 defines the electrical → optical transfer function. However, having different transfer functions for "input" and "output" strikes me as odd, as that would mean that when capturing something using an ideal reference camera and then playing it back on an ideal reference monitor, the display will not be consistent with the reality of what has been captured, because of the difference between the transfer functions used for capture and playback. What gives?

Last edited by e-t172; 31st March 2013 at 22:17.
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