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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:51   #161  |  Link
mandarinka
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Originally Posted by hajj_3 View Post
3yrs? pffft. Google and lots of other companies are working on this, development will be much faster than x265 has been. Hardware decoders for mobile will likely be ready in early 2018 and hardware decoders for pc in late 2018. I expect that in early 2019 the encoder will be good enough to replace x264, x265 and vp9.
It's as littlepox said. Google and friends ganging up won't really do some miracle in providing a high quality encoder - this has always been hard work for multiple years.

Google itself has shown with VP8's and VP9's treatment in libvpx that they basically either can't or don't care to provide high quality encoder software.

The role of other subjects that are adding into the project now is still to be evaluated, but while they will help, again you can't expect miracles (look how slowly has Daala progressed since 2010, only to find out that their proposed techniques in the end can't be made to work, in many cases. And look how much "too little, too late" has there been over the many years of theora development).

I think that the three years estimate might even be optimistic given how disappointing has libvpx been for these 7.5 years that Google has owned On2 for.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 15:59   #162  |  Link
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Vp10 isn't disappointing in anyways it is very competitive overall vs MPEG
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Old 24th January 2017, 03:13   #163  |  Link
wiak
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Originally Posted by mandarinka View Post
It's as littlepox said. Google and friends ganging up won't really do some miracle in providing a high quality encoder - this has always been hard work for multiple years.

Google itself has shown with VP8's and VP9's treatment in libvpx that they basically either can't or don't care to provide high quality encoder software.

The role of other subjects that are adding into the project now is still to be evaluated, but while they will help, again you can't expect miracles (look how slowly has Daala progressed since 2010, only to find out that their proposed techniques in the end can't be made to work, in many cases. And look how much "too little, too late" has there been over the many years of theora development).

I think that the three years estimate might even be optimistic given how disappointing has libvpx been for these 7.5 years that Google has owned On2 for.
Theora was just a fix/cleanup for VP3 (Xiph)
VP8 and VP9 are pretty good compared to AVC and HEVC (Google)
Daala still is a research project (Xiph/Mozilla)
Thor is Cisco's pet project

AOMedia consolidates VP10, Daala, Thor technologies to create a new codec and a new platform to develop AV1 and future codecs from Xiph, Mozilla, Google, Cisco and a boatload of other companies have joined

to make it clear, AOMedia doesnt only seem to be Google, Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)

WebM/VPx was ruled by a iron-fisted Google
AOMedia is probably more of a non-american democracy


just think back, how it was in the old days, Theora was pretty average/bad

my thoughts
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Old 24th January 2017, 06:04   #164  |  Link
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Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)
For me it's just another container. Google didn't want to have anything to do in the MOV container. Now Apple is in the team, so I expect that, and MOV will be under codec VPX / AOM. WebM is a simple container. Why additionally created a container to everything from WebM to Mastroska? Probably for legal reasons.
Certainly had an impact on the implementation of Matroska to video editors and home appliances. Nothing else.
What to implement the HDR function. WebM get a patent from the Adobe DNG and for what JpegXT. Codec IVF is packaged in next container WebM and already. This isn't a new idea. Less fortunate has WebP.
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Old 24th January 2017, 12:37   #165  |  Link
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Google has done some good stuff like creating WebM (Restricts Matroska to VP8/VP9 with Opus/Vorbis only)
This makes me wonder. Will they have an officially supported extension/container for AV1? Or will they just leave the situation as bad as it is, with a bunch of entities having their own preferred containers?
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Old 24th January 2017, 13:33   #166  |  Link
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This makes me wonder. Will they have an officially supported extension/container for AV1? Or will they just leave the situation as bad as it is, with a bunch of entities having their own preferred containers?
They'll most likely extend WebM (or they already did actually as aomenc already outputs WebM with AV1) . Probably they'll want to extend MP4 too (like they did it for VP9 (Netflix) and Opus).
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Old 24th January 2017, 14:49   #167  |  Link
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For me it's just another container. Google didn't want to have anything to do in the MOV container. Now Apple is in the team, so I expect that, and MOV will be under codec VPX / AOM.
I don't think Apple has publicly announced anything about AOM, has it?
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Old 24th January 2017, 14:57   #168  |  Link
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They'll most likely extend WebM (or they already did actually as aomenc already outputs WebM with AV1) . Probably they'll want to extend MP4 too (like they did it for VP9 (Netflix) and Opus).
this is how webm is
WebM v1 aka VP8/Vorbis
WebM v2 aka VP9/Opus

in the future it will probably look like this

WebM v3 aka AV1/Opus

the preferred container for av1 is webm as the encoder and decoders has a muxer and demuxer built in already

you can still put it in matroska, mov, and other containers, but webm has a much better compatibility guaranteed than other containers, its much closer to mp4 which only has AVC/HEVC with AAC audio etc
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Old 24th January 2017, 15:44   #169  |  Link
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you can still put it in matroska, mov, and other containers, but webm has a much better compatibility guaranteed than other containers, its much closer to mp4 which only has AVC/HEVC with AAC audio etc
As regards the work codec webm it better preserves parameters of converter ffmpeg codec than the VPX / AOM. I don't know why it is like that.
As regards the codec HEVC. In the Magix Vegas 14 codec Intel HEVC is in MOV container.

PS Even half a year ago it was added to the VPX codec MOV. Now is blocked and the problem solved.
Sam codec AV1 IVF currently can't be added to the Matroska container.
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I don't think Apple has publicly announced anything about AOM, has it?
VP9 only supported in MP4.
VP9 in MP4 support is experimental, add '-strict -2' if you want to use it.
That may change in a month.

ffmpeg.exe -i input.mov -f mp4 -c:v libvpx-vp9 -vb 2000k -strict -2 output.mp4

At one time the user RBO wrote two articles about the construction of codecs in containers VP9 / AV1. Unfortunately I don't received information, will codecs vpx be implemented in MP4Box?

Last edited by Jamaika; 24th January 2017 at 16:20.
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Old 30th January 2017, 02:31   #170  |  Link
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I don't think Apple has publicly announced anything about AOM, has it?
No, Apple has not seeing how Apple is not listed on here:

http://aomedia.org/about-us/
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Old 30th January 2017, 07:19   #171  |  Link
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In the press from the previous year was just a suggestion:
While this collaboration falls far short of Apple joining the Alliance for Open Media, it does signal that the two companies can work together effectively. It also indicates that Apple, long and publicly intransigent on MPEG DASH, is willing to contribute to new standards that benefit the common good. Will Apple join the Alliance? “We’ve been talking to a lot of companies, and recruiting definitely isn’t our challenge," Gabe Frost said. "The hard part is the engineering effort, taking the next step, and driving contributions through the open source project.”
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Old 30th January 2017, 16:30   #172  |  Link
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Google has stopped encoding 4k videos in h264, leaving Safari users on Mac OS without that option. VP9 is still impacting battery life though so my guess is Apple will start shipping AV1 decoders once bitstream is frozen. Implementing VP9 now would be a bit pointless and Apple has been sticking with h264/AAC for a rather long time, hence they will most likely want the same ROI on the next set of codecs.
Joining the AOM now might just completely break down support for HEVC as well since Apple is one of the final large holdouts not shipping consumer devices with VP9. Not sure if Apple wants to do that or if they are bound by agreements with the MPEG LA not to relicense their patents to others. At this stage they are probably just waiting for AV1 to be complete and then making a decision.
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Old 1st February 2017, 13:36   #173  |  Link
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Google has stopped encoding 4k videos in h264
That is not true. (Example)
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Old 1st February 2017, 18:41   #174  |  Link
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That is not true. (Example)

Nope, 1440p max on Safari.
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Old 1st February 2017, 19:38   #175  |  Link
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It's still encoded and available (e.g. via youtube-dl) as 3840x2160 H.264. I don't know about Safari.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 13:51   #176  |  Link
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/94956965

An overview of AOM from last year. Mostly old news and a recap, though in response to a question they do mention that AV1 is not the final name for the codec.

Also justifies some of Youtube/Google's design decisions around sending video to people in countries where the CPU available is higher than the bandwith.
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Old 6th February 2017, 00:13   #177  |  Link
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Slides from FOSSDEM

(from http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=ne...ec-FOSDEM-2017 )
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Old 6th February 2017, 00:21   #178  |  Link
wiak
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Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/94956965

An overview of AOM from last year. Mostly old news and a recap, though in response to a question they do mention that AV1 is not the final name for the codec.

Also justifies some of Youtube/Google's design decisions around sending video to people in countries where the CPU available is higher than the bandwith.
neat added to my overview page
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Old 6th February 2017, 12:52   #179  |  Link
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And the presentation from FOSDEM:

http://video.fosdem.org/2017/K.3.401/om_av1.mp4
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Old 6th February 2017, 14:10   #180  |  Link
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And the presentation from FOSDEM:

http://video.fosdem.org/2017/K.3.401/om_av1.mp4
Slides are gone, any backup link?
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