sysKin can't work on x264 anymore

[superdump]

Before I begin this post I would like to make the point that I wish for this to remain as a friendly discussion. It would be a bad thing if this were to degenerate into a flame war or similar and the discussion be lost and essentially barred from the forum.

There are few developers working on x264 at the moment and I would like to attempt to gather more interest.

A number of highly skilled individuals receiving offers they cannot realistically refuse for careers in this field. My personal view is one of complete support for the individuals as if I were to be in a similar situation I would do the same.

There is a suspicion, which may be unfounded though seeming increasingly likely, that Nero is trying to buy up all the skilled programmers working on rival freeware opensource codecs (XviD and x264 at least) to reduce competition and boost their workforce. Of course there is nothing illegal or immoral (unless you're anti-corporation ) about this, however it is saddening to see projects such as this go under because of such tactics.

So, my theory is that I will do my best to learn C, assembler and all about AVC as fast as I can so that I may be able to contribute to the project and later be bought up by Nero. Who's with me?!

x264's progress has been very promising of late as the members of this forum may well know as I imagine you have been following fairly closely. akupenguin is a legend and I for one am incredibly grateful for his work on this encoder, but I feel we should not rely on him to keep it going.

Find us at #x264 on irc.freenode.net

Over and out.

[pest]

i would like to join in any way...

i'm skilled at c, c++, asm

i'm mostly into algorithms
rate-control and frame-type decisions are not my list

and i just don't know where i could be usefull
someone needs 8x8 dct in 3dnow?

regards

[superdump]

Cool. I'm by no means a project leader or anything. I just felt like posting on here after hearing the 'good/bad' news. You probably want to talk to akupenguin (pengvado on IRC) about what's going on. I didn't expect such a quick response.

[pest]

the only problem is, that i'm working on a big project on my own...
but reading for example the xvid-source is no problem for me,
...see you on irc, next week

edit: oh read too fast, i try to contact akupenguin instead

[superdump]

Come on IRC anyway, it's probably easier to talk to him there.

Nice to see another person who uses lots of smilies.

[virus]

Yes, there we go. Radek has just signed a contract with Nero and won't even finish his new ME for x264. And possibly won't work on XviD anymore too. akupenguin has been invited by Nero, though he has not signed anything yet, so he still works on the codec (and he does a lot of job on x264!).

The point is: x264 is at risk of dying by the beginning of the summer (aku won't work on it for the summer I guess, but it's hard to tell what will happen later - he may not return back). All of that thanks to Nero's tactics. Cheers, Bill Gates would be proud of you, dear Nero Software.

Believe me, there are many things that can be said. I just want to make some points. Nero's guys say they do this to give an "opportunity to let people work on what they like". Yeah.

Then, why instead of hiring some talented professionals which can work full-time, they want to recruit a couple of talented students that can only work part-time or for a summer internship? And why just after the person has become a regular contributor to x264? And why now, they couldn't wait until this person graduates for example? Why, if they do that just for getting good people (and not for destroying the competition), they don't allow explicitly any more work on x264?

My personal answer is simple: because that "we give you an opportunity" thingie is just an excuse for trying to destroy their best competitor. And that way they hurt an entire community too, but who cares about the casualties? Getting more and more money is more important after all, no? Think about it, next time you offer them your betatesting time for free. Anyway, this is just my personal opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Anyway I want to make well clear that I'm speaking against Nero and not against anyone, especially Radek who, I assume, needs money for paying his studies, and so of course he made a good choice (from his standpoint). I feel that people should know about Nero's tactics anyway.

I really would like to have time to learn the standard and try to help, but I lack aku's and sysKin's talent for doing so. And I also lack time, since I'm not a student anymore (and you know, open source software mainly blossoms in the universities).

I just hope some new skilled regular contributors for the core may appear soon. Otherwise, the project is likely to stall for a long time. I still hope in akupenguin, because he may be able to help again in the future and because he's really a great coder, but seeing how people is simply disappearing after touching x264 and how much work the codec still needs, I'm a bit depressed. And very, very angry.

cheers,
virus

[pest]

i would go if bill himself phones

i've followed some of these things on hydrogenaudio, and yes it's sad
i'm no student...but...
now i feel like dropping my auspicious wavelet-codec
i'm reading doom9 since 4 years
perhaps it's time to contribute?

i have the feeling that the main part of the core is done
and now it's time to optimize the whole thing
and that's what i love

Originally posted by virus
Believe me, there are many things that can be said. I just want to make some points. Nero's guys say they do this to give an "opportunity to let people work on what they like". Yeah.

Well if this wasn't something that they wanted to work on, they wouldn't have accepted Nero's offer. It's not like Nero can force anyone to leave the projects they are working on to come work for them. Secondly, what is such the big deal about Nero wanting to hire good programmers to work for them? Are they only supposed to hire the crappy programmers? I don't get it.

[superdump]

OT: You have a wavelett codec? Post a thread about it so we can see.

[Doom9]

Well, it's sad but that's the world of business for you.

There have been many other examples of that sort in the past:
Part of Nero's AAC encoder team (old HA fellows will remember)
DVDShrink
Derrow (321 Software)
Brent Beyeler (bbmpeg, he works for Mainconcept if I'm not mistaken)

We all need to make a living somehow.. and if you write software as a hobby and get a good offer to do it professionally it makes sense to take it. And contracts that forbid you to do certain things are not unheard of. I'm not allowed to write certain kind of software for the next 2 or 3 years as well because of a previous engagement. Good thing nobody ruled out work as a webmaster and forum admin

Something gets me wondering though: Ateme is their video codec partner and Nero didn't really need anybody working on video codecs. Makes one think, doesn't it?

And it could've been Microsoft after all. If anyone is interested, Microsoft is actually looking for video and audio engineers.

[superdump]

I think Nero use in-house decoders in their software releases, in which case they would need codec engineers for this, but surely they already have some?

Some good points their Doom9. I also remember a lot of people at HA getting 'eaten up' by Nero but as you say, and I completely agree, if they get an offer to do what they're already doing while getting paid for it then why not?

[Sirber]

Did divx bought xvid devs?

[virus]

Originally posted by Maximillius
Secondly, what is such the big deal about Nero wanting to hire good programmers to work for them? Are they only supposed to hire the crappy programmers? I don't get it.

I've already made my point clear on the subject, just read what I wrote after the sentence you've quoted. I just want to remind that akupenguin and sysKin *aren't* the only two smart programmers on the face of earth with knowledge on video coding. So it's not really "hire those two or you're out of business".

AFAIK Nero is a German firm. And, for example, German universities produce several good graduated coders with experience on video coding, because there's quite a bit of research on this field there. Same applies to nearby France. Yet, they roam to USA and Australia to hire two students. Two talented ones, but not yet professionals.

You see I'm very skeptical about that. I don't want to build a conspiracy theory at all costs, but I see too much coincidences here, especially considering x264's outstanding rise in the last 3 months. Radek has worked for years with XviD for example, but only recently he has joined x264. Same applies to akupenguin, who has been contacted right after becoming the de-facto x264's lead developer and producing several important work on it.

This makes you think.


@Doom9:

"Ateme is their video codec partner and Nero didn't really need anybody working on video codecs. Makes one think, doesn't it?"

Good point

[Doom9]

I've already made my point clear on the subject, just read what I wrote after the sentence you've quoted. I just want to remind that akupenguin and sysKin *aren't* the only two smart programmers on the face of earth with knowledge on video coding. So it's not really "hire those two or you're out of business".

Put yourself in Nero's position though and things look quite differently. Hey, we have our biggest competitor trying to hire off people regularly. And considering they have a quasi monopoly, they can affort higher salaries, and eventually crushing us by buying projects. It isn't just about people being good, it's also about them not competing with you.

I'd very much like x264 to be in the AVC realm what XviD is in the ASP realm.. and perhaps by now companies have smartened up to realize that a good free competititor can cut into your business.

[Sirber]

They want the market badly...

[bond]

my cents:

nero started with buying opensource/free software devs a long time ago already, eg when entering the aac encoding market they bought ivan dimkovic, together with his (still freely available) aacenc, which is an early version of the todays nero aac encoder. they also bought menno, who was the original developer of faac (now doesnt work on it anymore of course) and faad (which he still works on)
so it might very well be that nero realised that hiring oss devs is a cheap way of recruiting good people
but it might also very well be a move to harm xvid and x264, which indeed are big competitors to nero

the funny thing is when entering the video market, they hired an external codec producer, ateme, and did not produce it themselves, but after syskin already showed that he is a great dev for years on xvid, suddenly they hired him when he meant to start working on x264, an upcoming competitor to neros new avc codec, on which he will not be allowed to work on anymore of course
also they tried to hire pengvado and ateme did hire fenrir, the original author of x264, who of course now also doesnt work on it anymore

propably its both:
- get rid of nasty and popular opensource competing products by swallowing their devs
- get people, you know to be good thanks to the oss software, for propably relatively not much money (as they are students, unemployed aso...). altough often they than dont work on audio/video codecs at nero/ateme anyways


so if you want to get a job at nero or ateme, start developing x264! nero is aiming high and still has lots of money to give

[virus]

Originally posted by Doom9
Put yourself in Nero's position though and things look quite differently. Hey, we have our biggest competitor trying to hire off people regularly. And considering they have a quasi monopoly, they can affort higher salaries, and eventually crushing us by buying projects. It isn't just about people being good, it's also about them not competing with you.

I see you point. But unfortunately, if the big companies want to buy off the medium ones, and the medium ones want to buy off the smaller ones, and both the medium and the smaller ones react by recruiting all OS devs they can find, then the very existence of OS software is threatened, at least in the video coding domain (and probably in many other domains, where a professional career is in sight after you've contributed good code to some OS project).

I may sound pathetic but I still feel the need to speak out about this situation, sorry. Especially because it's the large community of OS software users which will be damaged the more.

[Andrey]

Yeah. Nero begin such a politics long ago by hiring I.Dimkovich and M.Bakker. Now they realize that they could achieve two goals with it
On the other hand, some people that I respect much can now work on what they like (I hope) and get payed...
Many things have light and dark side merged together.
Anyway, it's a huge loss for x264 codec and community...
EDIT:
>>Then, why instead of hiring some talented professionals which can
>>work full-time, they want to recruit a couple of talented students
>>that can only work part-time or for a summer internship?
Heh. I'm a senior system analyst working in the bank. I was bought from rather big development company (may be you heard of it: one of the east europe big devs - Exigen). My two programers were taken from them too. Not because I'm evil , but because I have to complete my projects, but good Domino specialists are VERY hard to find here.
As I understand, situation is similiar in any field: there are huge number of people that know how to write two sentences in a M$ Word, can master one table in M$ Access. But when things going to jdbc, multi-thread applications, data integration (I'm not talking of special things like programming full-text indexes, video encoding or other very narrowed things that require a lot of expirience) and so on you can not find a good specialist, just because any good specialist is empoyed already. So, you have the only option to buy him...

[IgorC]

May be Nero or/and Ateme are developing AVC High Profile that´s why they need more engineers

[Andrey]

>>May be Nero or/and Ateme are developing AVC High Profile
They are, I think, because JohnV or somebody from their team already posted it here.
Also, they developing multi-platform solution (at least linux involved) and AVC for portables...