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Old 1st September 2004, 02:13   #1  |  Link
Sirber
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Helix Producer encode to Theora

It's now possible to encode to Ogg Theora using Helix Producer. Options are still limited, but anyway, here it goes!

xiph_producer_plins_win32_0_1.zip

From what I know:
* Only work in 1-pass mode
* cbr, vbr and cq
* output .ogg
* Does not work in RMVB and MKV

Observations:
* Playback is choppy in dshow, not sure if it dropped frames.

Software that (will) support it:
* RealAnime 2.20

For playback, you need one of these:
* Ogg DShow
* RealPlayer 10 and its plugins! (Joy added by unknown donator)

PM me to add more
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Last edited by Sirber; 2nd September 2004 at 13:24.
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Old 1st September 2004, 02:26   #2  |  Link
karl_lillevold
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Remember that the full source code is available for all the Xiph plug-ins, both for playback and encoding. The binary is made available to make it more convenient to try out. If something does not work right, anyone with enough interest can fix it themselves.

When RealAnime adds Ogg Vorbis/Theora it will be one of the easiest known methods to encode with this codec combination and Ogg output.
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Old 1st September 2004, 02:35   #3  |  Link
karl_lillevold
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Thanks to acolwell for his work on these plugins! He has done everything on both the encoder and decoder plugins, all available from helixcommunity.org:
https://helixcommunity.org/project/s...php?group_id=7
The playback plugins enable RealPlayer 10 to play Ogg(Vorbis/Theora) very well.
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Old 1st September 2004, 02:41   #4  |  Link
Sirber
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Diagnostic: Using video codec: theora (472000 bps)
Diagnostic: Using audio codec: vorbis (128000 bps)

I asked Vorbis Q10, ~80kbps. Producer is using MAX bitrate to calculate video bitrate.

[edit]

Can someone try to play it?

Stream 0

Media Type 0:
--------------------------
AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Stream {E436EB83-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
subtype: Unknown GUID Name {D2855FA9-61A7-4DB0-B979-71F297C17A04}
formattype: TIME_FORMAT_NONE {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 1
cbFormat: 0


Media Type 1:
--------------------------
AM_MEDIA_TYPE:
majortype: MEDIATYPE_Stream {E436EB83-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
subtype: TIME_FORMAT_NONE {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
formattype: TIME_FORMAT_NONE {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}
bFixedSizeSamples: 1
bTemporalCompression: 0
lSampleSize: 1
cbFormat: 0


http://www.detritus.qc.ca/realanime/theora_vorbis.ogg
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Last edited by Sirber; 1st September 2004 at 02:45.
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Old 1st September 2004, 19:37   #5  |  Link
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The clip you posted plays fine for me in RealPlayer 10 with the Xiph
decoding plugins installed.

The Theora reference encoder takes 2 bandwidth parameters. It
has one for keyframes and one for everything else. The max bandwidth is
used for the keyframe bandwidth and the average bandwidth use used for
the everything else. I don't know the exact details of how the encoder
uses these two values. If you want to have more control over the
bitrate, just set the max bitrate slightly higher than the average. I'm
not sure how that effects the quality. You'll have to experiment to find
the optimum settings.

Let me know if you have any other problems.
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Old 1st September 2004, 19:56   #6  |  Link
Sirber
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average was 600k and max 3000k. Maybe that's why it's choppy.

[edit]

I might remove Theora from RealAnime. Q is not as good as RV10 and it's also not standart in the way it works. beside the fact that's it's opensource, it has no other advantage.
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Last edited by Sirber; 1st September 2004 at 19:58.
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Old 1st September 2004, 20:09   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirber
I might remove Theora from RealAnime. Q is not as good as RV10 and it's also not standart in the way it works. beside the fact that's it's opensource, it has no other advantage.
At least it's patent free like Vorbis.
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Old 1st September 2004, 20:15   #8  |  Link
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uneven framerate problem

I think there is a bug somewhere that results in very choppy framerate in the encoded Ogg/Theora files. I have a synthetic test file with a smoothly moving bar that clearly shows the problem. Notice how in the .ogg version the bar moves in jumps, while it moves smoothly in the RM file (well, as smoothly as the jitter accuracy in the player allows).

I think the bug might be in the encoder plugin, since both RealPlayer with Xiph plugins, and Media Player Classic with the Illiminable Ogg Directshow filters Sirber points to in his first post, have the choppy playback problem. Maybe it's a timestamp issue, or Ogg container problem. (P.S. for Directshow playback, the Theora codec included in the latest ffdshow needs to be disabled, since it freezes after the first frame).
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Old 1st September 2004, 21:53   #9  |  Link
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guys, plz remember that the forum to discuss theora issues is the new a/v forum
realvideo hasnt much to do with theora. simply because one encoding tool is provided by real doesnt mean it fits in the realvideo section. or would you discuss 3ivx issues in the virtualdub forum, simply because its the encoding tool, which might be mostly used for encoding with 3ivxs vfw codec?
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MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis
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Old 1st September 2004, 21:55   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Latexxx
At least it's patent free like Vorbis.
its not patent free, but the patent holders charge no money no matter how you use it (commercial or not), so to say its license free
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MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis
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Old 1st September 2004, 22:14   #11  |  Link
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Quote:
its not patent free, but the patent holders charge no money no matter how you use it (commercial or not), so to say its license free
Finding any codec, audio or video, completely free of patent issues, may be very hard, so the term "(currently) license free" is better. Whatever potential patent owners decide to do if a certain codec becomes commercially popular, is unknown.
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Old 1st September 2004, 22:33   #12  |  Link
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CorePNG is patent free
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Old 2nd September 2004, 00:20   #13  |  Link
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We found the choppy framerate bug. Before making another build we probably also want to add support for maxKeyFrameInterval instead of hard coding it to 64 (frames). Theora does not have a max bitrate setting. It does however have keyframe_data_target_bitrate, which I am not sure what means. We currently set it to MaxBitrate. This may not be the right thing to do.

Other than this, Theora has some settings we do not have in RealVideo, so if anyone has any advice on good values for these values, let us know.
keyframe_auto_threshold (80)
keyframe_mindistance (8)
noise_sensitivity (1 / range 0..3)
sharpness (0 / range 0..1, 0 == sharpest)
The values currently used in the plugin in parenthesis.
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Old 2nd September 2004, 00:26   #14  |  Link
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Use the defaults from VP31. You could create a "bag" for the things that are not common in RealVideo 9 (not EHQ).
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Old 2nd September 2004, 02:55   #15  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirber
I might remove Theora from RealAnime. Q is not as good as RV10 and it's also not standart in the way it works. beside the fact that's it's opensource, it has no other advantage.
I would say that you are looking at it from the wrong end. The current userbase of RealAnime is not likely to switch to Theora anytime soon. However, you are likely to expand your userbase of RealAnime with people that would like to use Theora.
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Old 2nd September 2004, 02:58   #16  |  Link
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I already added XviD and VP6. I'm at 80% of theora. I will keep it. DVD support is on it's way also...

Also, does theora can work in matroska?
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Old 2nd September 2004, 10:08   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sirber
Also, does theora can work in matroska?
Sirber... what do you think
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Old 2nd September 2004, 13:24   #18  |  Link
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I'm asking coz mkvmerge didn't took it
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Old 2nd September 2004, 13:28   #19  |  Link
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currently it cannot... only in VFW compatibility mode (like with ffvfw).

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Old 2nd September 2004, 13:46   #20  |  Link
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Quote:
with the actual VFW version of ffmpeg, i'm pretty sure you can already store Theora in matroska with the VFW compatibility mode. It's perhaps not the best way to do so, but theora is just a vp32 "ogg'ized" (a bit like vorbis) so you have to store ogg frame inside of matroska anyway.
mkvmerge doesn't use windows VFW and DShow, since it works on *nix also.
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