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Old 16th September 2003, 13:00   #1  |  Link
bond
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Nero Digital info thread

from my insider connections i got the following informations about Nero Digital:

- ND will be released within a month (it's almost finished)
- it is claimed to be better and faster than most of the current mpeg-4 implementations (only DivX at the very slowest mode is better, but ND is a lot faster)
- ND will be available independently from nero burning rom (including he-aac encoding)
- ND will output .mp4 only (Nero Recode will have a direct export to MP4 option)
- because of licensing issues ahead "may need to restrict the directshow filter to just a few players, but CoreAAC should work pretty well for that too"
- it will be available for free for normal users (no adware)
- although ND is mpeg-4 advanced simple profile and offers GMC and QPel, the developers recommend not to use it in ND )
- nero vision express will be ahead's tool to work with mp4 files (cut, join, etc...)
- they already work on reference design for standalone players
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Last edited by bond; 16th September 2003 at 13:03.
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:10   #2  |  Link
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Note that it has only been compared to divx yet, not xvid
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Some old avisynth filters
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:27   #3  |  Link
The Edge
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Interesting.........


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Old 16th September 2003, 13:39   #4  |  Link
jollytim
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A quick Google search resulted in this.....

http://www.nerodigital.com/

From the sounds of it, it will be available soon. We'll see....
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:47   #5  |  Link
kl33per
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If this is the case, ND won't cut it.

Firstly, the MP4 container has problems, and unless you can convert it to another container somehow (I guess it's possible), people won't be using the codec. Also, if GMC and QPel aren't optimised, that's a major let down.

Edit: NeroDigital.com has been the official website for some time, however, it has not been updated in months.

Last edited by kl33per; 16th September 2003 at 13:50.
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:48   #6  |  Link
bond
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Quote:
Originally posted by kl33per
the MP4 container has problems
what for example?
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:52   #7  |  Link
temporance
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Quote:
Originally posted by bond
what for example?
Lack of software support is really the only one. Oh and definitions for some audio formats like AC-3 are lacking.
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Old 16th September 2003, 13:53   #8  |  Link
kl33per
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For example, currently all players that can play MP4 files have syncing problems with A/V (in MP4 files, not in other containers) and there is no specs for implementing subtitles.

Last edited by kl33per; 16th September 2003 at 13:56.
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Old 16th September 2003, 14:04   #9  |  Link
temporance
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This is going to be interesting. I wonder how they have compared performance with DivX? PSNR? It would be nice to see a comparison with xvid and *V9 too. Any more tidbits, bond? Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!

For me, Qpel and GMC are not important anyway - these are really a distraction to getting best performance at low bitrates.

I can't wait to give this codec a try. Come on Nero guys, we'll find bugs with it anyway - don't bother trying to find then now, just let us have it!!

Oh, and on mp4 I almost forgot: mp4 file format is not yet ready for use with embedded devices, Nero would have to design their own sub-spec of mp4.
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Old 16th September 2003, 14:16   #10  |  Link
bond
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Quote:
Originally posted by temporance
Any more tidbits, bond?
not at the moment

Quote:
Let me guess: you're really a Nero developer in disguise!
muhahaha

no, i am just the stupid guy who spreads the news, helping ahead keeping their marketing costs low, without seeing any single cent for it myself...
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MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
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Old 16th September 2003, 14:25   #11  |  Link
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"xvid compatible", "2 pass VBR", "DS filter", "free for normal user", "independent of burning ROM" -- meow, i'm getting excited
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Old 16th September 2003, 14:48   #12  |  Link
temporance
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Let's hope this isn't another codec "influenced" by xvid (remember the Sigma Designs episode?) Or at least, if it is, that they release the source as the GPL requires.
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Old 16th September 2003, 15:10   #13  |  Link
Nic
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@temporance:
It won't be a copy, I remember Ivan's early efforts with MPEG-4 video and it was quite impressive for back then (think it was back in the DivX 4 era, I've got the demo encoder somewhere, ill dig it out)...and completely different to any other encoder.

(Although I have a (cynical) feeling this won't be mind blowing quality...first releases rarely are. But I'm sure they'll keep update it often)

as for mp4, im sure it won't be a problem to take the mp4 and put it into mkv.

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Old 16th September 2003, 15:33   #14  |  Link
temporance
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Do you mean Ivan Dimkovic? Seems he's an audio guru (although of course this doesn't mean he can't turn his hand to video).

I have the same feeling about quality. And I also have the feeling that the release will be plagued with bugs (however much they test it, they can't try all permutations of input and configuration).

Quote:
From their website:
Psycho-visual distortion control model, highest possible PSNR - Sophisticated masking and noise estimation model is included in Nero Digital . for each frame it computes what parts of an image are significant for a viewer and allocates bits accordingly. This model is also responsible for the highest possible quality on variable bit rate (VBR) streams.
This is the most interesting part for me. It seems to be contradictary. Highest possible PSNR and psychovisual control model are, in my experience, two mutually exclusive things. A good PV model does things that murder the PSNR figure. Maybe there are two different modes.

For me, the most exciting thing is the AAC codec. We're getting to the stage now where at low audio bitrate is becoming increasingly important.
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Old 16th September 2003, 16:13   #15  |  Link
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Yup I mean mr. Dimkovic and he was very much getting into MPEG-4 video too towards the end of Psytel. Although I don't actually know if he has played a major part in the MPEG-4 Video side of ND. I just assume he has (it would be silly for him not too, with he's talents )

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Old 16th September 2003, 18:03   #16  |  Link
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I heared most part in Development on the Video side was done by Ateme afaik its also rumored that they made a 2pass in 1 pass mode
btw Nic when we can expect dvd2avi_nic with the resize fix and Donalds Decoder fix ?
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Old 16th September 2003, 18:17   #17  |  Link
bond
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and when will we see the new ogm filter
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MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
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Old 16th September 2003, 18:20   #18  |  Link
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OT:
Sorry guys, things have been mad at work recently...and the rest of the time I've spent shamelessly making my way through most of my best mates female friends...

It's fun and busy, but I literally haven't turned on my home computer in a month or so (and I'm still at work now (18:21pm)).

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Old 16th September 2003, 18:32   #19  |  Link
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edit: holy shit! it seems that there is a new version of oggds out: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61578
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Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau)
I know, that I know nothing (Socrates)

MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis
use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free

Last edited by bond; 16th September 2003 at 18:36.
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Old 16th September 2003, 23:05   #20  |  Link
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Ivan has gone a lot of work on the ND codec from what I've heard from Menno and others. I've asked Ivan how many warppoints the GMC implementation uses. Also, they only don't recommend that you don't use GMC and QPel because they don't provide any quality increase. I, unlike Nic, had high expectations of this codec. But from mine and CruNcher's tests XviD dev-api-4 beats DivX pro using slowest mode. We'll see what happens. No doubt CruNcher will prepare some results for us rather rapidly after the release of the ND codec.
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