weird behaviour with subs

sillKotscha · 6th January 2003, 11:16

good morning gents,

today I recognized a really strange behaviour concerning subs and xvid. I've ripped and encoded the movie 'We Were Soldiers'. VobSub didn't recognized forced subs but there're certain scenes with essential subtitles (at least for me, 'cause I don't speak vietnamese

)

Ok, what I've done...

1. I've wrote this tiny script to have 'burned in' subs and used vobsub to rip the subs (btw, for germans it's the 3rd substream)

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\System32\vobsub.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v")
crop(22,73,673,433)
VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01")
BicubicResize(544,240,0,0.5)

-> result: unrecognized exception in line 5 for avisynth 2.5 and 2.07(+)
I'm 99,9% sure that I've installed all necessary filters and files (VobSub_2.23 and SubTitle_DS1400)

2. ok, who cares

I've used 'SubRip 1.14' for the second try - no problem here - resulting file = *.srt.
Now I took VDub_mod... audio+video+srt = ogm BUT without any subs!!

3. ok, and again - who cares

I've took 'Subtitle Workshop 1.06' to save *.srt as *.sub... this time I've only muxed audio+video and put the *.sub into the same folder and guess what:

ZP and MPC (as every other player) reports the following: broken b-frame, missing Ref

For testing purposes I've encoded the movie again with DivX and this time I had no dilemma for the 2nd and 3rd option in other words:
- *.srt into ogm-container = subs as expected
- *.sub into the same folder with *.ogm = subs as expected

now I'm a little bit lost 'cause one thing I can tell you...

this was my first xvid_encoding (I know - shame on me

) and I was so much impressed how wonderfull it can look compared to divx. The movie has a total length of 2:12h and just to test the encoder capabilities I've huddled this movie on one XCD (=800MB).

to the whole xvid-team... guys, you do an outrageous job!! I couldn't believe how sharp it looks compared to divx.

For the ones who like to see what I mean, here is a little *jpg...

regrads Sill

/Edit: if it's of any use... I followed iago's very nice document step by step (just to let you know my settings) and used Koepi's latest development (unstable) binary_XviD-03012003-1

manono · 6th January 2003, 13:04

Hi-

As for the unrecognized exception, try and put the VobSub line after the Resize and see if that makes a difference.

sillKotscha · 6th January 2003, 13:38

hi manono,

thanks for your reply - and I can tell you I'm dumb!!!

I've solved the avisynth behaviour...

I was wondering why I get this unrecognized exception.. it's as easy as it is sometimes...

1. for aviysynth 2.5: how can subtitles be displayed, if vobsub won't support it yet

and

2. for avisynth 2.07(+): I've just forget to change mpeg2dec3 to mpeg2dec2 in my script, that's why I didn't get an unrecognized exception in this case but VDub was just closing without any comment

here is my solution for 'burned in' subs:

- if I want them, then I still have to get along with avisynth 2.07(+) - script:

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec2.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\System32\vobsub.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v")
crop(6,73,705,433)
VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01_0")
BicubicResize(608,256,0,0.75)

(as you can see, this time I aim for 2CD's

)

- or, you can test a little bit and then it's something like this for avisynth 2.5 (latest alpha) - script:

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\Tools\Audio-Video\Capture\VirtualDub\VirtualDubMod 1.4.13.1\vobsub.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v")
crop(6,73,705,433)
VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01_0")
BicubicResize(608,256,0,0.75)

in this script is a modified version of vobsub.dll for avisynth 2.5 and according to Kyo in this
thread it works for him, hmmm... but it doesn't for me

if I include the provided dll by gabest (I know, still for testing puposes only

), I get something like this:

but these things are very minor...

what still is pretty strange is the fact, that I can implement an *.srt-file with xvid into ogm but subs won't show (as I said contrary to divx) and that any player shows the message broken b-frame, missing Ref if I put *sub into the same folder along with *.ogm (audio+video/ without *.srt of course) and yes, contrary to divx as well??!!

The 'broken b-frame' message won't show up, if I just remove the *.sub file - strange, isn't it??!!

regards Sill

JimiK · 6th January 2003, 14:54

Do you use Nic's decoder for XviD? In a certain release (end of December), no subs were shown, although there are some. If so, try ffdshow and look if the subs are visible now.
Best regards,
JimiK

vinkes · 6th January 2003, 15:07

Hey sillKotscha,

I experienced the same problem, like jimik said it's due to nic's xvid-decoder. You can either use ffdshow, so subtitles work again or use an older xvid-binary with an older version of nic's decoder. I used
koepi's 19-12 binary and voila.. subtitles worked again.

Regards,
Erik

sillKotscha · 6th January 2003, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by JimiK
Do you use Nic's decoder for XviD?

nope, ffdshow - that answers your second suggestion, as well

Quote:

Originally posted by JimiK
In a certain release (end of December), no subs were shown, although there are some.

I'm using latest test_binary (as I said by Koepi)...

tested your proposal to use Nic's decoder - same behaviour - removing *.sub, movie plays just fine, put *.sub back to the folder I got the mentioned message and video stutters

thanks for your help

Sill

sillKotscha · 6th January 2003, 15:18

Quote:

Originally posted by vinkes
and voila.. subtitles worked again.

et voilá?? not for me

I'll test and let you know...

thanks

Sill

vinkes · 6th January 2003, 15:29

It didn't work?

Hmmm... strange it's works for me.

Then I suggest you use ffdshow to decode.

Regards

sillKotscha · 6th January 2003, 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by JimiK

Do you use Nic's decoder for XviD?

Quote:

Originally posted by sillKotscha

nope, ffdshow - that answers your second suggestion, as well

Angrychair · 6th January 2003, 16:58

I'm not sure if I'm on topic, or misinterpreting what the discussion of this thread is, but I've had a recent problem with the combination of Virtualdub (and vdmod) vobsub (and textsub) and xvid using b-frames. With those three together, my encodes constantly crash on the second pass of an encode. Get rid of vobsub on the encode, and it's fine, get rid of b-frames on the encode, and it's fine. Use divx5, and it's fine. This problem seems to have popped up after installing directX9 but I'm not sure if that's really linked to the problem.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, the only workaround I have right now is encoding to huffyuv to get the subs in, then re-encoding to xvid with b-frames.

Frustruating problem.

sillKotscha · 9th January 2003, 12:38

Quote:

Originally posted by sillKotscha
what still is pretty strange is the fact, that I can implement an *.srt-file with xvid into ogm but subs won't show (as I said contrary to divx) and that any player shows the message broken b-frame, missing Ref if I put *sub into the same folder along with *.ogm (audio+video/ without *.srt of course) and yes, contrary to divx as well??!!

The 'broken b-frame' message won't show up, if I just remove the *.sub file - strange, isn't it??!!

regards Sill

hi folks,

just to bring this one up again... (and of course I don't want to open another thread)

as I can see I'm nearly the only one expierencing this weird behaviour - hmm, either I didn't searched very well (strike #1

) or I'm just too dumb - both options are possible

but as described above I managed to get around this problem...

I had to use the stable version of avisynth [2.07(+)] to have ('burned in')subtitles. The only "disadvantage" is speed... but who cares - the quality is so impressive.

- talking about this "problem", for my part... period!!!

but here I come with another bframe-issue...

I've encoded my second movie using xvid - this time using avisynth 2.5...

- speed = fantastic
- quality = fantastic
- playing, seeking = fantastic

but maybe one point to mention - I've used VDub_mod to mux video with audio (for tagging, etc.) and if I move the seekbar_slider I recieve this message for about 500ms (maybe more, maybe less)... have a look here:

I don't know if it's worth to mention, because I don't get any playback_problems nore any other problems - it's just to let you know.

This is by no mean a "huuhh, help - xvid problem" thread, it's just the fact that I started to love this codec and maybe an issue no one else noticed until now... (or as I said I didn't searched well enough)

regards Sill

/Edit: damn it, I always forget about my settings... and again: I've followed iago's very nice document step by step...

JimiK · 10th January 2003, 18:47

Hi Sill,
just wanted to share my experiences with subs and latest builds here. I assume you also use DirectVobSub (autoloading) to display your subs. I don't know (and don't think) it's an XviD problem, but DirectVobsSubs only displays subtitles when you seek in the file. If you don't seek, they're not shown. I had to do this for a long time now and I think it's a VobSub problem. Btw, I'm using ZoomPlayer to playback files.
The other observation you made (don't know if it belongs in a thread with this title):
When opening the avi (video only) I made in VirtualDubMod and use the slider, then I get this output (white on black screen):
Warning: Nothing to output
Bframe decoder lag
I encoded the movie with an own build, just using files out of the CVS. I can only use ffdshow without "Use XviD" checked, otherwise ZoomPlayer will crash. But with ffdshow the picture is fine.
Another thing that just occured to me. When playing back the movie in windowed mode, then giving the focus to another app that will be drawn in front of the movie, then switching back to the movie, there is no Antialiasing until the next keyframe arrives. And the picture will go blank before the player draws the next frame. Has it always been this way? It never occured to me.
Best regards,
JimiK

NeVeRLiFt · 10th January 2003, 21:02

Thanks pointing this post out to me sillKotscha, sorry I missed it.

I posted in two different threads about a problem with Bframes.

Bluedan · 20th January 2003, 17:25

Can confirm Broken B-frame bug while Decoder Lag never occured in my last encode, but I didn't check the whole movie framewise in VDubMod, too lame to do so.
I had Subs(.srt) in OGM, too.
But I didn't crosscheck OGM without subs.
BTW, as you obviously didn't test bsplayer, which has build-in subtitle parser: It simply crashes without warning message. The only way to get those OGMs playing is to turn off subtitles in player presets.
Because BST improved tag support for internal .srt files (OGM)in latest player release, we all thought he messed something up. Maybe we were wrong then.
But frankly, I still don't recognize the relation between subs -especially with externals, no matter if .sub or .srt- and b-frame decoding!!!

6th January 2003, 11:16	#1 \| Link
sillKotscha what's this for? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 993	weird behaviour with subs and xvid good morning gents, today I recognized a really strange behaviour concerning subs and xvid. I've ripped and encoded the movie 'We Were Soldiers'. VobSub didn't recognized forced subs but there're certain scenes with essential subtitles (at least for me, 'cause I don't speak vietnamese ) Ok, what I've done... 1. I've wrote this tiny script to have 'burned in' subs and used vobsub to rip the subs (btw, for germans it's the 3rd substream) Code: LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec3.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\System32\vobsub.dll") mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v") crop(22,73,673,433) VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01") BicubicResize(544,240,0,0.5) -> result: unrecognized exception in line 5 for avisynth 2.5 and 2.07(+) I'm 99,9% sure that I've installed all necessary filters and files (VobSub_2.23 and SubTitle_DS1400) 2. ok, who cares I've used 'SubRip 1.14' for the second try - no problem here - resulting file = .srt. Now I took VDub_mod... audio+video+srt = ogm BUT without any subs!! 3. ok, and again - who cares I've took 'Subtitle Workshop 1.06' to save .srt as .sub... this time I've only muxed audio+video and put the .sub into the same folder and guess what: ZP and MPC (as every other player) reports the following: *broken b-frame, missing Ref* For testing purposes I've encoded the movie again with DivX and this time I had no dilemma for the 2nd and 3rd option in other words: - .srt into ogm-container = subs as expected - .sub into the same folder with .ogm = subs as expected now I'm a little bit lost 'cause one thing I can tell you... this was my first xvid_encoding (I know - shame on me ) and I was so much impressed how wonderfull it can look compared to divx. The movie has a total length of 2:12h and just to test the encoder capabilities I've huddled this movie on one XCD (=800MB). to the whole xvid-team... guys, you do an outrageous job!!* I couldn't believe how sharp it looks compared to divx. For the ones who like to see what I mean, here is a little jpg... regrads Sill /Edit: if it's of any use... I followed iago's very nice document step by step (just to let you know my settings) and used Koepi's latest development (unstable) binary_XviD-03012003-1 __________________ latest mix sets: http://soundcloud.com/sill Last edited by sillKotscha; 6th January 2003 at 14:27.*

6th January 2003, 13:38	#3 \| Link
sillKotscha what's this for? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 993	hi manono, thanks for your reply - and I can tell you I'm dumb!!! I've solved the avisynth behaviour... I was wondering why I get this unrecognized exception.. it's as easy as it is sometimes... 1. for aviysynth 2.5: how can subtitles be displayed, if vobsub won't support it yet and 2. for avisynth 2.07(+): I've just forget to change mpeg2dec3 to mpeg2dec2 in my script, that's why I didn't get an unrecognized exception in this case but VDub was just closing without any comment here is my solution for 'burned in' subs: - if I want them, then I still have to get along with avisynth 2.07(+) - script: Code: LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec2.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\System32\vobsub.dll") mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v") crop(6,73,705,433) VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01_0") BicubicResize(608,256,0,0.75) (as you can see, this time I aim for 2CD's ) - or, you can test a little bit and then it's something like this for avisynth 2.5 (latest alpha) - script: Code: LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec3.dll") LoadPlugin("D:\Tools\Audio-Video\Capture\VirtualDub\VirtualDubMod 1.4.13.1\vobsub.dll") mpeg2source("D:\Movies\helden\helden.d2v") crop(6,73,705,433) VobSub("D:\Movies\helden\vts_01_0") BicubicResize(608,256,0,0.75) in this script is a modified version of vobsub.dll for avisynth 2.5 and according to Kyo in this thread it works for him, hmmm... but it doesn't for me if I include the provided dll by gabest (I know, still for testing puposes only ), I get something like this: but these things are very minor... what still is pretty strange is the fact, that I can implement an .srt-file with xvid into ogm but subs won't show (as I said contrary to divx) and that any player shows the message broken b-frame, missing Ref* if I put sub into the same folder along with .ogm (audio+video/ without .srt of course) and yes, contrary to divx as well??!! The 'broken b-frame' message won't show up, if I just remove the .sub file - strange, isn't it??!! regards Sill __________________ latest mix sets: http://soundcloud.com/sill Last edited by sillKotscha; 6th January 2003 at 14:34.

6th January 2003, 15:07	#5 \| Link
vinkes now at 300 xvid rips! Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 44	Hey sillKotscha, I experienced the same problem, like jimik said it's due to nic's xvid-decoder. You can either use ffdshow, so subtitles work again or use an older xvid-binary with an older version of nic's decoder. I used koepi's 19-12 binary and voila.. subtitles worked again. Regards, Erik __________________ Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

6th January 2003, 15:29	#8 \| Link
vinkes now at 300 xvid rips! Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 44	It didn't work? Hmmm... strange it's works for me. Then I suggest you use ffdshow to decode. Regards __________________ Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

20th January 2003, 17:25	#14 \| Link
Bluedan Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: were people always get wet feet Posts: 328	Can confirm Broken B-frame bug while Decoder Lag never occured in my last encode, but I didn't check the whole movie framewise in VDubMod, too lame to do so. I had Subs(.srt) in OGM, too. But I didn't crosscheck OGM without subs. BTW, as you obviously didn't test bsplayer, which has build-in subtitle parser: It simply crashes without warning message. The only way to get those OGMs playing is to turn off subtitles in player presets. Because BST improved tag support for internal .srt files (OGM)in latest player release, we all thought he messed something up. Maybe we were wrong then. But frankly, I still don't recognize the relation between subs -especially with externals, no matter if .sub or .srt- and b-frame decoding!!! __________________ I'm probably misconfused...

6th January 2003, 13:04	#2 \| Link
manono Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 7,406	Hi- As for the unrecognized exception, try and put the VobSub line after the Resize and see if that makes a difference.

6th January 2003, 14:54	#4 \| Link
JimiK just me Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 158	Do you use Nic's decoder for XviD? In a certain release (end of December), no subs were shown, although there are some. If so, try ffdshow and look if the subs are visible now. Best regards, JimiK

6th January 2003, 16:58	#10 \| Link
Angrychair Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 49	I'm not sure if I'm on topic, or misinterpreting what the discussion of this thread is, but I've had a recent problem with the combination of Virtualdub (and vdmod) vobsub (and textsub) and xvid using b-frames. With those three together, my encodes constantly crash on the second pass of an encode. Get rid of vobsub on the encode, and it's fine, get rid of b-frames on the encode, and it's fine. Use divx5, and it's fine. This problem seems to have popped up after installing directX9 but I'm not sure if that's really linked to the problem. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, the only workaround I have right now is encoding to huffyuv to get the subs in, then re-encoding to xvid with b-frames. Frustruating problem.

10th January 2003, 18:47	#12 \| Link
JimiK just me Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 158	Hi Sill, just wanted to share my experiences with subs and latest builds here. I assume you also use DirectVobSub (autoloading) to display your subs. I don't know (and don't think) it's an XviD problem, but DirectVobsSubs only displays subtitles when you seek in the file. If you don't seek, they're not shown. I had to do this for a long time now and I think it's a VobSub problem. Btw, I'm using ZoomPlayer to playback files. The other observation you made (don't know if it belongs in a thread with this title): When opening the avi (video only) I made in VirtualDubMod and use the slider, then I get this output (white on black screen): Warning: Nothing to output Bframe decoder lag I encoded the movie with an own build, just using files out of the CVS. I can only use ffdshow without "Use XviD" checked, otherwise ZoomPlayer will crash. But with ffdshow the picture is fine. Another thing that just occured to me. When playing back the movie in windowed mode, then giving the focus to another app that will be drawn in front of the movie, then switching back to the movie, there is no Antialiasing until the next keyframe arrives. And the picture will go blank before the player draws the next frame. Has it always been this way? It never occured to me. Best regards, JimiK

10th January 2003, 21:02	#13 \| Link
NeVeRLiFt Shadowrunner Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 146	Thanks pointing this post out to me sillKotscha, sorry I missed it. I posted in two different threads about a problem with Bframes.