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Old 7th February 2003, 13:08   #81  |  Link
bb
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I'd like to switch from OGM to a better supported format as soon as possible, so keep going! I'm curious to test what you've got till the end of this month.

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Old 10th February 2003, 15:31   #82  |  Link
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A quick note about the state of the beta release.

The file format basis (EBML) is very stable and tested (at least for read/write). All matroska revolves around this format and is scalable from this point. That means that the files created with the beta library/tools will always be playable by future parsers. Know elements of the format will be used, unknown will be discarded.
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Old 23rd February 2003, 11:26   #83  |  Link
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Short update :

Cyrius created a first version od matroskadub, based on VirtualdubMod. It can create and read valid, specs compliant matroska files and is currently tested by the matroska alpha test team.

Also Moritz Bunkus is close to finish work on his matroska muxer for Linux, called 'mkvtoolnix' ( ). He also can create files already, at least with XviD and MP3. Same time he started to write a patch allowing matroska playback on mplayer, but this patch will not make its way into mplayer CVS as it will be based on our C++ library, and mplayer people dont like that. To overcome this problem there are currently 3 ( ! ) developers working on porting the C++ lib to C, so that mplayer people can use it for an official patch.

I also tried to motivate Ronald 'BBB' Bultje to make a gstreamer playback plugin for matroska, but it seems he cant work on that right now as he has other priorities ( matroska support for sure is no priority for gstreamer people now ).

The biggest problem we currently have is that our DShow parser developer, Jan 'myFUN' Schlenker, seems to be on vacation or missing in action, so we dont have a working parser filter yet, and the only way to play the created matroska files now is either matroskadub's preview function ( no audio ) or mosu's inofficial mplayer patch, once he has finished it :-( ....

But, as you can see : We will maybe even be able to keep the forecasted beta release date for first matroska files, being end of february !!

Christian

P.S. Anybody knows if mplayer will work on Cygwin ? ... LOL
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Old 23rd February 2003, 15:57   #84  |  Link
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That's great news, I can't wait to test matroska!
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Old 24th February 2003, 22:22   #85  |  Link
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Space Efficiency: AVI vs. OGG vs. MKV

Let me share the results I've just gotten...

[ INPUT ]
XviD Video: 2,079,942 Bytes
LAME Joint Stereo: 311,754 Bytes
Ogg Vorbis Stereo: 311,890 Bytes

[ OUTPUT ]
xvid+mp3cbr.avi 2,352KB (2,408,448 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.ogm 2,340KB (2,396,092 Bytes)
xvid+mp3cbr.mkv 2,327KB (2,382,707 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.mkv 2,320KB (2,375,511 Bytes)

Matroska seems cool, at least in its space efficiency
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Old 24th February 2003, 23:27   #86  |  Link
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and no audio sync problem i hope ?
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Old 24th February 2003, 23:40   #87  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigmatador
and no audio sync problem i hope ?
Nop, every data block has a timecode (unlike in AVI)
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Old 25th February 2003, 09:03   #88  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigmatador
and no audio sync problem i hope ?
Er... "No." I mean, I can't test that atm, because there are no players that can replay MKVs yet.
I don't think MKV will have audio/sub synch problems in itself,
but it s possible that replaying MKV will be so cpu-intensive that you have some problems especially with an older PC.
(e.g. Karaoke in soft-subs)

Anyway, to make an MKV file is much easier than expected, literally as easy as clicking. A screen shot:
http://matroska.tripod.co.jp/matroska_rx13.png

ps. i m not an "official" tester nor a matroska developper.
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Old 25th February 2003, 10:16   #89  |  Link
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Nice matryoshka picture (russian doll) you have on the back !
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Old 25th February 2003, 12:32   #90  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan
Er... "No." I mean, I can't test that atm, because there are no players that can replay MKVs yet.
I don't think MKV will have audio/sub synch problems in itself,
but it s possible that replaying MKV will be so cpu-intensive that you have some problems especially with an older PC.
(e.g. Karaoke in soft-subs)

Anyway, to make an MKV file is much easier than expected, literally as easy as clicking. A screen shot:
http://matroska.tripod.co.jp/matroska_rx13.png

ps. i m not an "official" tester nor a matroska developper.
Just curious, do you use Unicode filename for audio/video files ?
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Old 25th February 2003, 14:03   #91  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan Anyway, to make an MKV file is much easier than expected, literally as easy as clicking. A screen shot:
http://matroska.tripod.co.jp/matroska_rx13.png
ps. i m not an "official" tester nor a matroska developper.
Ehem ... would you mind telling me where you 'found' matroskadub, so we can fix this hole ?

Dont misunderstand me, i dont have problems with that if you are 'testing' matroskadub ( in fact, half of the old alpha test team seems to have lost interest ) as i consider you being an experienced memeber, but i would have a problem if any uninfomred people got their hands on this version and were spreading files out to the wild to be 'cool' !! It wouldnt be a big desaster, as the files we create now ARE already specs compliant ( or so we honestly believe ), but we would prefer to wait a bit longer before releasing any tools.

Thanks for telling me mate ... i promise i'll add you to the 'official' alpha test team, just drop me a PM here with your email addy, so i can give you further instructions.

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Old 25th February 2003, 14:53   #92  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Ehem ... would you mind telling me where you 'found' matroskadub, so we can fix this hole ?
well, er, you are the very person who "leaked" that link to a public mailing list
You gave the link for alpha2 even after Steve Lhomme asked "Chris, are you aware you sent this link to a public mailing list ?" so I thought this was supposed to be a kind of public test. Sorry if it was not like that. But that link was also copied in a forum in Japan (not by me); we are so much interested in MKV seriously, partly because we are not happy with sub support in today's OGM here in japan.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackSun
Just curious, do you use Unicode filename for audio/video files ?
No, usually not.
My file system is NTFS, so technically all filenames are internally Unicode (UCS-2) iirc, and I can have, say, Korean filenames and Japanese filenames in the same directory. I do that sometimes, but not usually, because many pieces of software (DivX Player 2.0, mIRC...etc, etc) don't work fine if the path or filename contains so-called multibyte characters.
Plus, if the audio file contains mb characters, you'll have to use IME(something you ll need to type in Eastern languages) just to type "lame --alt-preset filename" or "oggenc filename"; it's too much of a bother...
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Old 25th February 2003, 15:31   #93  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan
[B]well, er, you are the very person who "leaked" that link to a public mailing list
You gave the link for alpha2 even after Steve Lhomme asked "Chris, are you aware you sent this link to a public mailing list ?" so I thought this was supposed to be a kind of public test.
Uhmmm ! Does that mean there are actually other people than us reading our mailing lists ?? ... lol .... what a success !!

Quote:
Sorry if it was not like that. But that link was also copied in a forum in Japan (not by me); we are so much interested in MKV seriously, partly because we are not happy with sub support in today's OGM here in japan.
Dont worry, as i said above the files created with it are pretty much specs compliant already, so its no big deal. I was literally too lazy to sned a private email copied to the 25+ team members we have now, so i took the easy road and sent it to the ML.

Anyway, this link is for the old version with huge memory leaks in the library, so nobody could ever create a real movie with it, unless he has got 1.5 GB or RAM .... welcome in the alpha test team, email is on the way to you ...
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Old 25th February 2003, 17:07   #94  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackSun
Just curious, do you use Unicode filename for audio/video files ?
If so, VirtualDubMod would have to be modified to support Unicode filenames. I'm running the latest version, and it can't handle nasty UTF-8 filenames like this one:
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Old 25th February 2003, 17:19   #95  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Defiler If so, VirtualDubMod would have to be modified to support Unicode filenames.
http://sourceforge.net.jp/projects/virtualdubmod



We hope to be able to merge the 2 versions soon, stream is now an official part of the VirtualdubMod Team and working on a general translation structure for VirtualdubMod, so it can be switched to different languages. Of course, handling Unicode filenames is top priority then ...
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Old 25th February 2003, 17:39   #96  |  Link
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This looks awesome. I had to read your reply twice before I noticed that you weren't linking me to the regular SF page. Heh.
From the version numbers, it looks like the JP version is in the same state of completion as the main branch? That's cool.
Is Unicode support really all that difficult? I'd always heard it was simply a matter of using a different Win32 API call, but Blight says that he'd basically have to rewrite Zoom Player to get Unicode support.
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Old 25th February 2003, 18:13   #97  |  Link
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Re: Space Efficiency: AVI vs. OGG vs. MKV

Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan
Let me share the results I've just gotten...
I feel that it is important to note that these files do not have a seek index as that part of the code has not been finished yet. While it will be possible to seek in *.mkv files without a seek index, you will not likely see files like this because of the difference in seek speed.

And, although the file will be larger with a seek index, and it will depend on how big of a seek index you want, the size required should be minimal. For instance, I will likely only care to have seek points (shown as "CuePoint" in the specs) for every keyframe, but others may want a seek point for at least ever second. Either way, it should not add more than a few bytes for each seek point. (I was trying to add up exactly how many for each CuePoint, but then one of the project leaders posted a list. My numbers were a little different, but he has a better handle on the specs so I will list his.)
  • Keyframe = 19 bytes
  • P Frame = 34 bytes
  • B Frame = 48 bytes
Plus, there would be an additional 10 bytes for the 'header' on the seek portion of the file, and the number should become a bit more efficient with additional tracks. But, ignoring this, if you only marked keyframes (makes the most sense) and the keyframes occured, on average, once per second on a 24fps movie, that lasted 2 hours, and took up 1.4GB (2xCD), then lets see how much that would take up. 1 x 60sec x 60min x 2hr x 19bytes = 136,800bytes. Or, less than .09%. Lets figure in two audio tracks, no lacing, put on some overhead, and you still have around 500KB for a 1.4GB movie. Not a big difference.
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Old 26th February 2003, 01:30   #98  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChristianHJW
We hope to be able to merge the 2 versions soon, stream is now an official part of the VirtualdubMod Team and working on a general translation structure for VirtualdubMod, so it can be switched to different languages. Of course, handling Unicode filenames is top priority then ... [/B]
Well, they kinda were already merged for 1.4.x, but now we started on updating to 1.5.x (which already has some Unicode support), the update of the internationalisation & unicode stuff is still pending.
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Old 26th February 2003, 06:59   #99  |  Link
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Re: Re: Space Efficiency: AVI vs. OGG vs. MKV

Tentative Correction

Quote:
Originally posted by Pamel
I feel that it is important to note that these files do not have a seek index as that part of the code has not been finished yet.
  • Keyframe = 19 bytes
  • P Frame = 34 bytes
  • B Frame = 48 bytes
Plus, there would be an additional 10 bytes for the 'header' on the seek portion of the file
The test clip was 468f, w 3 keyframes (I), 23.976fps, 19.52sec.
So if I unterstand your memo correctly...

(1) to compare with OGM, which can seek by following I-frames,
it would be fair to add 13*3 + 10 = 49 Bytes.
[ Observed Value ]
xvid+mp3cbr.avi 2,352KB (2,408,448 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.ogm 2,340KB (2,396,092 Bytes)
xvid+mp3cbr.mkv 2,327KB (2,382,707 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.mkv 2,320KB (2,375,511 Bytes)
[ Corrected (theoretical) ]
xvid+mp3cbr.avi 2,352KB (2,408,448 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.ogm 2,340KB (2,396,092 Bytes)
xvid+mp3cbr.mkv 2,327KB (2,382,756 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.mkv 2,320KB (2,375,560 Bytes)

Conclusion: No changes in KB unit

(2) if I can add more "CuePoints" in this smart manner:
- CuePoints must be inserted so that there s alywas at least one CuePoint in each 0.5 sec. (This will enable you to seek freely from any scene to any scene, better than older containers)
- If possible, a CuePoint is inserted on an I-frame, or else it will be on a P-frame.

Since the clip was 19.52 sec, there would be some 40 CuePoints;
3 of which would be inserted on I, 37 on P:
19*3 + 34*37 + 10 = 1325 Bytes ... Correction Value

[ Corrected II ]
xvid+mp3cbr.avi 2,352KB (2,408,448 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.ogm 2,340KB (2,396,092 Bytes)
xvid+mp3cbr.mkv 2,328KB (2,384,032 Bytes)
xvid+vorbis.mkv 2,321KB (2,376,836 Bytes)

Conclusion: No big changes
Correct me if i m wrong.

NOTE: We dont know yet what will happen when we mux more than 2 files as an MKV.

OGM is excellent in this point: the overhead will be about the same even if you mux 8 streams (like 1 video + 1 audio + 6 subs)
I hope the same is true for MKV too.

Quote:
the keyframes occured, on average, once per second on a 24fps movie
I don't think keyframes are this many, generally.
That's why you cannot set a "Chapter" as you like in OGM file.
(in OGM, when you try to jump to the chapter at mm:ss.nnn,
you will jump to the first keyframe after mm:ss.nnn,
not exactly on mm:ss.nnn. If you don't insert I-frames on purpose for chapters, probably chapters won't work fine: that is how it is in OGM)
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Old 26th February 2003, 14:23   #100  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: Space Efficiency: AVI vs. OGG vs. MKV

Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan
If you don't insert I-frames on purpose for chapters, probably chapters won't work fine: that is how it is in OGM
Since, unlike OggMux, VirtualDubMod is aware of both the keyframes and the chapters.. is this a feature that is being looked into?
Edit: I meant for all formats that support chapters, (i.e. Matroska as well as OGM)
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