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Old 30th June 2004, 09:09   #641  |  Link
Eye of Horus
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SRS VST plugin

Hi all,

One of the best commercial stereo to surround VST plugins, is available for a 7 days trial. The retail price is $299.
I can recommend you to try this !
http://www.surroundadvertising.com/s...ll/default.asp

(but please take notice of the above messages about the pin layout on my setup, that is different when feeding 32 bits files instead of 16 bits..........)

An alternative in freeware can be found on :
http://multiphonie.free.fr/acousmodules_en.htm

These guys have a large collection of free VST's. I tried the Spat DPL decoder and was very pleased with the results.
If you put the free Voxengo Stereo Touch to the rears, you can get some incredible results.

They also have more surround plugins, even for 7.1 !
A highly recommended site !

Enjoy !

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 1st July 2004, 12:53   #642  |  Link
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EoH,

I have a humble request: would it be possible to put up a page with the various surround "types" and maybe give a brief descritpion of each with the pros & cons? I realize this is highly subjective, but for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out all the bidules & plugins, it might help us zoom in on what we are looking for.

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 1st July 2004, 13:20   #643  |  Link
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@MaroonMike

Quote:
for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out
I think this is one thing we all got in common, so donīt be disappointed when no one wants to start again at very begining (about 2 years ago) to comment every direction which was created in this long time. I once had the idea to this but I gave up because I also one of those
Quote:
who don't get as much time to try out
, as married husband sometimes clocks ticking a little different
So one thing is left from this idea: a PDF file with a 'little bit' of structure means a table of contents which leads you direct to the different methodes. I did this in May 2004, and from time to time I īll update this 'guide' which is actually nothing more or less than this thread. Youīll find it on the usual places.
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Old 1st July 2004, 15:02   #644  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaroonMike
EoH,

I have a humble request: would it be possible to put up a page with the various surround "types" and maybe give a brief descritpion of each with the pros & cons? I realize this is highly subjective, but for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out all the bidules & plugins, it might help us zoom in on what we are looking for.

Thanks,
Mike
Very good idea !
But..... my time is also limited
Although I'm still on the "sicknote", 24 hours a day is simply not enough.
But... I like this idea so much that I will discuss it with Kempfand and see if we can get something useful.

Perhaps some kind of FAQ......

For sure I will get back to this subject !

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 1st July 2004, 15:04   #645  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by daphy
@MaroonMike



I think this is one thing we all got in common, so donīt be disappointed when no one wants to start again at very begining (about 2 years ago) to comment every direction which was created in this long time. I once had the idea to this but I gave up because I also one of those , as married husband sometimes clocks ticking a little different
So one thing is left from this idea: a PDF file with a 'little bit' of structure means a table of contents which leads you direct to the different methodes. I did this in May 2004, and from time to time I īll update this 'guide' which is actually nothing more or less than this thread. Youīll find it on the usual places.
Hey Daphy,

You had more time : Germany went after the first round
I still needed two evenings for Holland, but.... that's over too now

just kidding !!

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 1st July 2004, 15:45   #646  |  Link
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Quote:
Hey Daphy,

You had more time : Germany went after the first round
I still needed two evenings for Holland, but.... that's over too now


letīs say 'patt' this time
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Old 1st July 2004, 16:19   #647  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaroonMike
EoH,

I have a humble request: would it be possible to put up a page with the various surround "types" and maybe give a brief descritpion of each with the pros & cons? I realize this is highly subjective, but for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out all the bidules & plugins, it might help us zoom in on what we are looking for.

Thanks,
Mike
Actually I proposed something similar to this recently to the moderators. The existing surround "sticky" would be replaced with a thread that starts by listing the different guides and methods and providing links to their individual threads or places within a thread. Discussions of surround sound methods in general would continue in the general sticky forum. Each new guide or method that comes along would be a non-sticky thread. The beginning of an individual thread would present the method or guide and then discussions about its technicalities, pros, cons, etc., would follow.

The only remaining question would be what to do with the current sticky thread. Obviously, no one has the time or desire to take this existing thread and split it up, rewrite it, or whatever, so it would still exist, but as a "non-sticky" thread that would be referenced from the sticky list, just like all the surround guides. That would preserve all the valuable information in this thread. Perhaps each contributor of a method could submit the link to his or her posting and then whoever manages the new sticky thread list could add the link.

The problem with the existing setup is that some surround methods never get mentioned in this thread but simply scroll off the first page list of recent threads. I found a couple of the methods I tried entirely by accident. Yes, people can search for them, but if the list were at the beginning of a thread is presented as a "sticky" it should give equal time to all the methods. As I mentioned recently in a reply to kempfand, there were some interesting bidules, vsts, etc., coming up in the middle of this thread, but reading to find them and get info can get really tedious. As well, the thread starts with one guide and for the first few pages, that's all that's discussed, so a newcomer may assume, as I did when I first found it a few weeks ago, that the whole thread focused on the original Ambisonic-based approach. Once I discovered some of the riches buried in the middle, I was surprised and happy!

Daphy and Andy do an amazing job with their server, but downloading the files and then actually implementing them as intended is often not easy. The PDF is good, but it needs constant updating. Anyway, I hope the mods do something because newcomers are missing some potentially great stuff. Yes, this thread is fascinating to read, but it's become somewhat leviathan for people who like you said just want to find something that might be what they're looking for, zoom in on it and have fun!

Regards,
Steve.

Last edited by ursamtl; 1st July 2004 at 16:34.
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Old 2nd July 2004, 00:55   #648  |  Link
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Experiments

Well, I compared DPL from my receiver, SAD5.1 with an ambient hall impulse response, the Voice-Non Center.Bidule, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule, using a segment of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth. I have to agree with Ursamtl that the Preservation_5v2_REc_.bidule is impressive. It even brought out to an extent the natural ambience of the concert hall in addition to filling the room as Ursamtl pointed out. For grins I added the ambient hall Impulse Response to the Preservation bidule (nod to Kempfand)and I was blown away (perhaps too much!) But again, it still all comes down to the engineering of the recording and other factors. For instance, I found that by switching the surround speakers from dipole, to direct or to bipole, I could refine the results of the above methods to my taste. Scattering the surround output produces a better feeling of space with all the above methods but particularly with the Gerzon method. So far I would vote for Preservation_5v2_REC.bidule number one followed by, at least, the Voice-Non Center/Instrumental for choral/orchestral works.

However, SAD5.1 was the winner for a solo instrument backed up by a consort. So at the risk of being redundant, I think the best approach is to really familarize oneself with what each bidle has to offer then listen carefully to the original CD to get a feeling for how it is produced and only then apply the most appropriate surround method.

Thanks everyone for enriching my experience with music!
Scott
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Old 2nd July 2004, 16:06   #649  |  Link
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Re: Experiments

Quote:
Originally posted by Tantulus
Well, I compared DPL from my receiver, SAD5.1 with an ambient hall impulse response, the Voice-Non Center.Bidule, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule, using a segment of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth. I have to agree with Ursamtl that the Preservation_5v2_REc_.bidule is impressive. It even brought out to an extent the natural ambience of the concert hall in addition to filling the room as Ursamtl pointed out. For grins I added the ambient hall Impulse Response to the Preservation bidule (nod to Kempfand)and I was blown away (perhaps too much!) But again, it still all comes down to the engineering of the recording and other factors. For instance, I found that by switching the surround speakers from dipole, to direct or to bipole, I could refine the results of the above methods to my taste. Scattering the surround output produces a better feeling of space with all the above methods but particularly with the Gerzon method. So far I would vote for Preservation_5v2_REC.bidule number one followed by, at least, the Voice-Non Center/Instrumental for choral/orchestral works.

However, SAD5.1 was the winner for a solo instrument backed up by a consort. So at the risk of being redundant, I think the best approach is to really familarize oneself with what each bidle has to offer then listen carefully to the original CD to get a feeling for how it is produced and only then apply the most appropriate surround method.

Thanks everyone for enriching my experience with music!
Scott
Hi Scott,

Nice to hear your experiments are going well. Your discussion of the bipole surrounds reminded me of some reading I did recently regarding THX certification. Part of that standard calls for such an approach for the surrounds.

Stay tuned because if you liked the bidules so far in this thread, you're going to love what I'm working on now! I should finish testing and writing a guide in another week or two. Ironically, I was testing it on the final movement of Beethoven's 9th yesterday as well as on a John Williams recording of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez. Talk about filling a room with sound!

Steve.
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Old 2nd July 2004, 22:05   #650  |  Link
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Re: Experiments

Quote:
Originally posted by Tantulus
<snip>

So at the risk of being redundant, I think the best approach is to really familarize oneself with what each bidle has to offer then listen carefully to the original CD to get a feeling for how it is produced and only then apply the most appropriate surround method.

Thanks everyone for enriching my experience with music!
Scott
Thanks for the compliment !
And your remark is completely correct : it's impossible to build one method that fits all kind of music !
The combination of the right song with the right method, makes the winner !!

Please give SRS a try too ! ( a few messages above)
I had some excellent results with it and even one of the "quad" boys complimented the conversion !

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 2nd July 2004, 22:25   #651  |  Link
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SRS VST

Thanks for your response, EOH.

I've tried to use Audition's surround panner and found it daunting. Are the vst's your referring to have presets and tutorials?

Scott
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Old 2nd July 2004, 22:36   #652  |  Link
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OT !!!

Quote:
Originally posted by ursamtl
<snip>
Anyway, I hope the mods do something because newcomers are missing some potentially great stuff. Yes, this thread is fascinating to read, but it's become somewhat leviathan for people who like you said just want to find something that might be what they're looking for, zoom in on it and have fun!

Regards,
Steve.
What should be done is a better search routine !

besides that :
A thread becomes sticky when it is proven important enough for a lot of people . The number of visitors to this thread, makes it important enough to get a sticky status.
That people post a lot of non-topic stuff in it, shouldn't be the reason to remove it's status. When all non-topic posts are removed, we come back to the basics ! And I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes less than 15 pages then !!
And as long as there is so much non-topic in it, yes, it will be difficult to find the things you want or need. And I'm sorry to say so (I made myself guilty of that too !) but for instance discussions about hardware drivers for a specific soundcard have nothing to do with this thread !
This thread is already split once, because the former got too much off-topic and became a Besweet commandline discussion.

And actually this discussion is again non-topic and only a waste of space !

So if we all stick to the subject we will get a cleaner and more on-topic thread.

It's not the thread that's wrong, it's the off-topic postings that made it this long.

Yes, I do miss a more active role of the moderators, but I guess this becomes too long for them too !

In the past every now and then a topic was moved to another place because it didn't belong here. I miss that lately !!

My 2 (last) cents, because I will try to stay on-topic from now on !

EoH
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Old 2nd July 2004, 22:44   #653  |  Link
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Re: SRS VST

Quote:
Originally posted by Tantulus
Thanks for your response, EOH.

I've tried to use Audition's surround panner and found it daunting. Are the vst's your referring to have presets and tutorials?

Scott
LOL !! This SRS VST is so simple that I am still surprised that it even has a manual !!

There are almost no settings !

No presets, because it doesn't work that way.

You chose if you want a center speaker in the front only, or also one in the back or none at all. And you chose if you want extra volume to the voice and the LFE channel. If you chose for extra volume it has a standard setting of +5 Db. That's the only thing I advice to change to +3 Db. Sometimes it can clip with +5. (but it even has 7 VU meters, so you can see what's happening and adjust the settings if necessary.
That's all there is ! really !!

Just give it a try with the 7 days trial. It's a pity it's so expensive ! But..... quality obviously has it's price !

Good luck and let us know what you think of it,

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 2nd July 2004, 23:38   #654  |  Link
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Re: OT !!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Eye of Horus
What should be done is a better search routine !

besides that :
A thread becomes sticky when it is proven important enough for a lot of people . The number of visitors to this thread, makes it important enough to get a sticky status.
That people post a lot of non-topic stuff in it, shouldn't be the reason to remove it's status. When all non-topic posts are removed, we come back to the basics ! And I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes less than 15 pages then !!
And as long as there is so much non-topic in it, yes, it will be difficult to find the things you want or need. And I'm sorry to say so (I made myself guilty of that too !) but for instance discussions about hardware drivers for a specific soundcard have nothing to do with this thread !
This thread is already split once, because the former got too much off-topic and became a Besweet commandline discussion.

And actually this discussion is again non-topic and only a waste of space !

So if we all stick to the subject we will get a cleaner and more on-topic thread.

It's not the thread that's wrong, it's the off-topic postings that made it this long.

Yes, I do miss a more active role of the moderators, but I guess this becomes too long for them too !

In the past every now and then a topic was moved to another place because it didn't belong here. I miss that lately !!

My 2 (last) cents, because I will try to stay on-topic from now on !

EoH
Discussing the contents of a thread in the thread is hardly off-topic! Where else are we supposed to discuss it?

I think you missed my point. The problem is not off-topic posts, although the thread is full of those (Euro 2004, health problems, surround settings for soundcard drivers, yes we're all guilty ). The problem is how newcomers access the information. You wrote a very good guide in the beginning. I'm a technical writer by profession so I'm used to reading this kind of stuff. Yours is well done. As you know very well, I found the results disappointing, but it was not the fault of your guide. However, as I wrote before, someone reading this thread for the first time has to keep reading for a long time before other, equally valid approaches come up. In addition, others have written guides that are also equally valid, but these scroll off the front page before many people have time to read them. Ideally, all these guides, including yours, would appear on the Doom9 Guides page and not just in the forum. They don't, so instead of having to spend a long time searching through a 15 page thread (your estimate after we remove what you consider off-topic), it would be very helpful if people could just access a list of all the methods and go directly to them.

In addition, on most forums I've seen over the years, "Sticky" threads are used by the forum managers to provide important forum-related information, just as the BeSweet FAQ thread. A newcomer such as I was awhile back would naturally come to the conclusion that your guide is the official Doom9-sanctioned approach to creating surround sound. It's not. It's only one of several approaches. As you've said yourself, the best method to use depends on the source music. If there was a simple sticky thread with a list of all the methods, then newcomers would find all the approaches and be in a much better position to evaluate them just as Tantalus has done. For example, in his experience, kempfand's Preservation bidule outranked all the others, yet it only received a passing mention in this thread until kempfand asked me what I thought of it and I posted a message saying how good it sounded! Since then I've had people private messaging me asking how they can get it. This info is there, but it's not apparent, so people just private message instead.

So you see, it's not about off-topic information. It's about information access. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have the time or desire to read through 14 or so pages of a thread just to find a surround approach that sounds as good as the Preservation bidule. I'm presently putting the finishing touches on something that sounds even better IMHO, and although I'll certainly post details about it in this thread, I'll also provide a complete guide somewhere else so that people don't have to spend forever reading just to stumble upon it.

Maybe we could all share the work in putting a menu together. I'd certainly be willing to help. Would you?

Last edited by ursamtl; 2nd July 2004 at 23:54.
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Old 3rd July 2004, 16:13   #655  |  Link
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Re: strange problem !

Hi EoH,

I really dont know what's going on.
Both Bidule 6602 and Besweet b28 seem fine by me
I made two 6 channel files in bidule (not extensible as Besweet doesnt decode them)
and in each channel, a voice saying the channel number:
(available in http://plogue.com/davidv/temp)

and Both

BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_16bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max )
BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_32bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6chfloat ) -ota( -G max )

Give the same mapping

temp-c.wav = 3
temp-FL.wav = 1
temp-FR.wav = 2
temp-LFE.wav = 4
temp-SL.wav = 5
temp-SR.wav = 6

Can you please confirm.
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Old 3rd July 2004, 16:21   #656  |  Link
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Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Hi EoH,

I really dont know what's going on.
Both Bidule 6602 and Besweet b28 seem fine by me
I made two 6 channel files in bidule (not extensible as Besweet doesnt decode them)
and in each channel, a voice saying the channel number:
(available in http://plogue.com/davidv/temp)

and Both

BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_16bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max )
BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_32bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6chfloat ) -ota( -G max )

Give the same mapping

temp-c.wav = 3
temp-FL.wav = 1
temp-FR.wav = 2
temp-LFE.wav = 4
temp-SL.wav = 5
temp-SR.wav = 6

Can you please confirm.
Hi David,

I can confirm that I get exactly the same results as you. Works fine for me.
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Old 3rd July 2004, 16:39   #657  |  Link
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Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Hi EoH,

I really dont know what's going on.
Both Bidule 6602 and Besweet b28 seem fine by me
I made two 6 channel files in bidule (not extensible as Besweet doesnt decode them)
and in each channel, a voice saying the channel number:
(available in http://plogue.com/davidv/temp)

and Both

BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_16bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max )
BeSweet.exe -core( -input 06_32bit.wav -output temp- -type wav -6chfloat ) -ota( -G max )

Give the same mapping

temp-c.wav = 3
temp-FL.wav = 1
temp-FR.wav = 2
temp-LFE.wav = 4
temp-SL.wav = 5
temp-SR.wav = 6

Can you please confirm.
Yep, same result here !
But, that was to be expected !

There is something wrong in Bidule with certain VST's but only on certain computers !
Layla1970 (also member here) gets random results from the filerecorder, I don't get random, but wrong order.
Kempfand reported the same kind of errors.

The two VST's where this happens are :
SRS VST
Spat DPL decoder

And I had it with another one, that we made, too, but ATM I don't remember which one.

So : this doesn't happen always ! That's also what makes it difficult, especially when the filerecorder gives it's output at random !

Resume : everything with the 2 VST works great in 16 bits, but with 32 bits there are problems........

I don't know if it's a fault in the VST's or in Bidule, but as I prefer the outcome in 32 bits, I hope you can find a solution !

with kindest regards,

EoH
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Old 3rd July 2004, 16:46   #658  |  Link
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Re: OT !!!

My 2 cents on this: Having s short sticky with links to various methods is a good idea and can be of help for look-up and getting up to speed purposes, but it does in my opinion not replace the need to read through most of the pages of this threat. Where I live, there is a saying going along the lines: "reading educates", and this is what I mean when I advise all newcomers to take the time and read through the details. There is simply no replacement for doing this.

Concerning the pros and cons of each method, this is a function of so many variables (personal taste, source material used, reproduction equipment, even brand of CD-R used, just to name a few), and my preference would be to not use such ratings and just keep it to the technical description & details. Giving 'pros & cons' to the outcome of a method is just a source for endless and mostly unproductive discussions, and I believe that every one here can make up his mind and go the route he or she likes best.

Maybe 2 sticky would make everyone happy. Just my 2 cents.

Andreas
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Old 3rd July 2004, 16:51   #659  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Originally posted by Eye of Horus
There is something wrong in Bidule with certain VST's but only on certain computers !
Layla1970 (also member here) gets random results from the filerecorder, I don't get random, but wrong order.
Kempfand reported the same kind of errors.
I don't have the mapping problem, but still have the problem with >4 GB 32 bit multichannel WAV's and BeSweet demusing. Currently using WaveLab to demux things.

Kind regards,

Andreas
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Old 3rd July 2004, 17:38   #660  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Resume : everything with the 2 VST works great in 16 bits, but with 32 bits there are problems........

I don't know if it's a fault in the VST's or in Bidule, but as I prefer the outcome in 32 bits, I hope you can find a solution !

with kindest regards,

EoH [/B]
Im sorry but i know how the signal path works in bidule.
as i said ALL signal paths are in 32 bits, and there is no supplemental information that passes through the graph.
The VST plugin has no clue that we record the final output at 32 bits or 16 bits. (or that we change those settings in the file player or recorder)

Please send me your .bidules, and a clear step by step way to reproduce.
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