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Old 19th February 2004, 20:35   #341  |  Link
kempfand
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3rd Order Bidule

I've uploaded a 3rd order bidule (incl. 2 screenshots) to the FTP (currently in /Incoming/3rd_Order/ ). Some remarks:

- I have set it up such that it decodes to Pentagon-rig.

- You'll need 2 VST's: BFDecFHH.dll & BFPanFHH.dll. They can be found on with Hochschule für Musik Winterthur Zürich VST Ambisonic Tools in the York Plugins Windows Version . Just copy the 2 dll's to your VST-directory.

- I have added gains for all 5 speakers. IMPORTANT: If you change the gain, change it to the same Amplitude for all 3 instances of Gain (or else the sound-image will not work).

- Some limited documentation is available with the old version of the VST's: Third Order VST Ambisonic Tools

Good luck and happy testing,
Andreas
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Old 20th February 2004, 07:11   #342  |  Link
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Hi Andreas,

those two VST-plugins are already uploaded on the FTP (since 230104 ) and part of the plugins-complete-0400219.rar.

I would suggest to move the bidule to the ambisonic section?!?

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Old 22nd February 2004, 06:47   #343  |  Link
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Thank You Kempfand.

Can You tell me what is the channel mapping of the multichannel output? Please.

THX
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Old 22nd February 2004, 11:18   #344  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by puzio
Thank You Kempfand.

Can You tell me what is the channel mapping of the multichannel output? Please.

THX
Standard ! FL,FR,C,LFE,RL,RR

grtz,

Eye of Horus
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Old 24th February 2004, 15:56   #345  |  Link
Umma
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I'm curious...with Minnetonka's Discwelder coming out soon, cheaply, will their be any application of these conversion methods to DVD-A? Will it sound any better, equal, whatever? I am planning on getting a DVD-A player, soon. Best Buy has one for $149...a Pioneer DVD player capable of all the surround modes.

(thrown in in retrospect)
I would imagine that we would encode UHJ to B, process it, then go back from B to a multichannel UHJ file. Then run it through the DVD-A program (Discwelder). Losslessly. DVD-A is supposed to be lossless, though it will hold dts and DD, and some video. Just thinkin' aloud, here...

I find it really interesting that, after the explosion of interest in conversion to dts and DD over here at this forum that companies such as Minnetonka are now hawking their wares to the home-user so the home user can upmix their music. NICE!

But they gotta come down on their prices some more!

Last edited by Umma; 24th February 2004 at 17:07.
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Old 26th February 2004, 15:38   #346  |  Link
Van the man
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this looks great
Gonna try it out, but the emigrator link doesnt work
And how can I mux all the .wav 's back to one .wav file?

Any ideas?

Van
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Old 28th February 2004, 23:31   #347  |  Link
Umma
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Quote:
Originally posted by Van the man
this looks great
Gonna try it out, but the emigrator link doesnt work
And how can I mux all the .wav 's back to one .wav file?

Any ideas?

Van
You mean after Besweet? You need Surcode dts encoder or a Dolby Digital encoder to make either a dts/wav file or AC3 file.

You mean this Emigrator link?

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Old 29th February 2004, 03:00   #348  |  Link
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Have just uploaded to the server under Ambiophonics/3rd_order two new vst's.

3_B-Pan is my version of the york bpanfhh 3rd order ambisonic encoder.
3rd_order is version 2 of my ambiosonic decoder that allows you to decode into either 1,2,3 order. 1 being the usual WXYZ, 2 adding the 2nd order UV and 3 adding 3rd order PQ.

To use the associated bidule, you will need to download my crosstalk plugin from the server under crosstalk.

As you will notice, the 3-b-pan is linked to the associated SIR settings. So whatever of my impulse files you use in SIR, just use the same settings in 3-b-pan. (only front at the moment)

But you can use the 3-b-pan as a standalone, jsut choose one of the settings to enable decode properly. The outputs are the same as bpanfhh ie: WXYZUVPQ.
And the inputs on 3rd order ambiophonic are LRWXYZUVPQ. Outputs are the same. Namely L,R,C,SL,SR with SC muxed into the two rear surrounds for DTSes use.
EDIT: NO LFE OUTPUT

Edit: If there is enouth interest, I can make a reverse VST that reverses existing 5.1 into 1st 2nd 3rd order files. The same way as my 1st order reverse VST.

Last edited by specise_8472; 29th February 2004 at 19:19.
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Old 29th February 2004, 04:44   #349  |  Link
Umma
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Thanks. I will try the crosstalk plugin again. I couldn't get it to work the last time I tried.

I don't understand what you mean by the reverse VST. Just what are the benefits of a VST such as this? If I take a pre-existing, non-ambi/ambiophonic dts/DD 5.1 mix, run it through the reverse VST, it will calculate and assign the WXYZ calculations to a resulting multichannel file? And those WXY assignments can then be adjusted differently as the file is re-encoded back to a 5.1 dts or DD5.1?

I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried. Room impulses work great with soundboard recordings, though. Maybe the WZYZ settings in a newly calculated, post-reverse VST file can adjust the ambient muddle that happens in a 5.1 upmix with live recordings? Am I making any sense?

I guess an experiment would be to take a file and do it the old way, i.e. combine the stereo for a mono center, split the left and right for FL, FR, and SR and SL...make a 5.1 file, reverse it into a 1,2,or 3 order file, adjust the new WXYZ assignments, re-encode. Would there be any benefits to doing this? Or maybe I'm missing a crucial concept, here?
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Old 29th February 2004, 05:36   #350  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umma
Thanks. I will try the crosstalk plugin again. I couldn't get it to work the last time I tried.

I don't understand what you mean by the reverse VST. Just what are the benefits of a VST such as this? If I take a pre-existing, non-ambi/ambiophonic dts/DD 5.1 mix, run it through the reverse VST, it will calculate and assign the WXYZ calculations to a resulting multichannel file? And those WXY assignments can then be adjusted differently as the file is re-encoded back to a 5.1 dts or DD5.1?


I have had good results with this Reverse method. One of the best was Saving Private Ryan scene 2 where they storm the beach at Omaha. The original has good bullets whizzing around etc. After reversing then converting straight back into 5.1 from the WXYZ (no playing around), there seemed to be a distinct difference in the surrounds. If anything the overall effect should be slightly degraded from the original, but it still sounded better to me. The reason I wrote it in the first place is that sycho?? (I think) wanted it.

Quote:
I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried. Room impulses work great with soundboard recordings, though. Maybe the WZYZ settings in a newly calculated, post-reverse VST file can adjust the ambient muddle that happens in a 5.1 upmix with live recordings? Am I making any sense?
My crosstalk plugin uses my own special Impulses to 'spread' the soundfield out to the angles in them. And so my new 3-b-pan (I also have a straight b-pan)uses these angles to compute the Azimuth for Ambisonic encoding.

Quote:
I guess an experiment would be to take a file and do it the old way, i.e. combine the stereo for a mono center, split the left and right for FL, FR, and SR and SL...make a 5.1 file, reverse it into a 1,2,or 3 order file, adjust the new WXYZ assignments, re-encode. Would there be any benefits to doing this? Or maybe I'm missing a crucial concept, here?
This method may have merits. Try it and tell us the results.
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Old 29th February 2004, 12:31   #351  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umma


I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried.
Hi Umma,

I found a plugin, only DX, that can improve your live boots in an incredible way. I understand that a lot of studios use this in a hardware version, but the plugin does the same.
Try to download it somwhere, but if you can't find it, I will upload it on usenet in the group where we always are :-)
The name of the plugin : BBE Sonic Maximizer .
I used it on an Alan Parsons Live bootleg with a very dull sound.
After using the plug...... words fail to describe the improvement !
Use it on the stereo before converting to 5.1.....

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 29th February 2004, 12:54   #352  |  Link
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Stereo to Surround comparison

Quote:
Originally posted by Eye of Horus
This also will go into test-mode !!

Within a few days, I will finalize my big comparison.
Accessible for everyone interested !

This is what I will do :

I took 10 pieces of different music and will process it with all available published methods.
(A quick count in my head : 10)
This will give 10*10 soundfiles.... That's too much with full songs, so from every song 2 minutes......

This must lead to a final conclusion which method is the best for a certain kind of music...


These are the titles I chose :

1. The Blue Danube - J. Strauss
A classic waltz with a lot of violins

2. When You Got A Friend - Peter Green
A blues song.

3. Mixed Emotions - The Rolling Stones
Uptempo rock.

4. Tainted Love - The Flying Pickets
An acapella song with clean voices

5. Unomathemba - Ladysmith Black Mambazo
Acapella with dark voices

6. Spente Le Stelle - Emma Shapplin
Opera voice on modern synths music.

7. Them heavy People - Kate Bush
A complete different voice !

8. The Eve Of War - Jeff Wayne
Rock with a lot of effects between left and right speakers

9. Oxygene 4 - Jean Michel Jarre
Synths

10. Hotel California - The Eagles
Softpop.

Of course it's easy to add more and more styles..... house, dance, hiphop, rap, big choirs...etc. etc.
I just took some titles from my catalog

I know it is an ambitious project and it will keep me from the streets for a few days. But I think this is the only way to go, now that the amount of different methods to get from 2.0 to 5.1 is getting out of hand.....

Remember.... from every song 2 minutes encoded with at least 10 different methods.......

Let's see which one gives the best results.....

I will yell here when it's ready and available for download in alt.binaries.sounds and alt.binaries.sounds.dts

Of course I'm open for suggestions the methods.
If there is any method nobody uses (anymore), I'll appreciate feedback, because that saves me quite some time !!

I also like to hear feedback on my choices of music...... (but please don't let this thread go into a general "I would chose another song : xxxxxx for song nr. xx" one !!!!!!!!!!)


grtz,

Eye of Horus
It took more time than I thought
And with new methods every week..... well, I just choose 10 and already the differences are remarkable ! (And this was the first time ever I wrote a website in PHP, which also took its time !)
I will start uploading tomorrow to alt.binaries.sounds and to alt.binaries.sounds.dts .
Monday : CD 1
Contents : the original stereo files, song1 and song2
Tuesday : CD 2
Contents : song3, song4, song5
Wednesday : CD 3
Contents : song6, song7, song8
Thursday : CD 4
Contents : song9 and song10

The website where you can vote for the best sounding version of a song, will be published after the first CD is posted.
You can only vote once for every song. After you have voted, you can view the results. To see the used methods you have to vote on every song and after that you will see which methods were used.
The combination of the style of music and the used method, delivers different results. Don't think that after hearing one song, that method will give the same good results for the 9 other songs !!

I hope you will all have a lot of fun with this test.

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

Last edited by Eye of Horus; 2nd March 2004 at 13:16.
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Old 29th February 2004, 13:36   #353  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by specise_8472
And the inputs on 3rd order ambiophonic are LRWXYZUVPQ. Outputs are the same. Namely L,R,C,LFE,SL,SR with SC muxed into the two rear surrounds for DTSes use.
File recorder outputs FL,FR,C,LFE,SL,SR.
In your layout from 3th-order to the file recorder, you don't use pin 6 of the recorder, but do use pin4. When decoding the 6 channel wav to 6 separate channels with besweet, pin 4 is the LFE.
This is your layout :
1>1
2>2
3>3
4>4
5>5
nothing to 6.

IMHO it should be...
1>1
2>2
3>3
4>5
5>6
nothing to pin4

Kind regards,

EoH
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Old 29th February 2004, 17:34   #354  |  Link
Umma
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specise - Thanks, I'll try it all over the next couple of days.

EoH - Come to find out, I have BBE Sonic Maximizer! I went digging around on my storage HDD and found it. Installed it just now and experimentation phase will begin after I clean the house... Anybody got a wife to spare??
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Old 29th February 2004, 19:16   #355  |  Link
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EOH you are right about the pinouts.
I have just 'hooked' up the pins to the audio recorder wrong.
I knew this at the time, but didn't chaange them for the release bidule.

The outputs from the VST are the same as before L,R,C,SL,SR. NO LFE.
I typed wrong above. There is no LFE output. Just too quick on the fingers

Last edited by specise_8472; 29th February 2004 at 19:20.
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Old 29th February 2004, 19:26   #356  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umma
specise - Thanks, I'll try it all over the next couple of days.

EoH - Come to find out, I have BBE Sonic Maximizer! I went digging around on my storage HDD and found it. Installed it just now and experimentation phase will begin after I clean the house... Anybody got a wife to spare??
Hey man,

This is 2004 !!! FCOL, a real man cleans his own mess

OTOH : did you look on Ebay ?

grtz,

EoH
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Old 29th February 2004, 20:30   #357  |  Link
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How can I add the line in besweet? I have the non-gui version.
But when I click on the file it only shuts down again
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Old 1st March 2004, 09:16   #358  |  Link
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@ Van the man
try CommandBar with 'CTRL+M' you get a seperate window inside of the explorer.
Download located in the 'other apps' section
(BTW needs MS Frameworks)

CYA Daphy
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Last edited by daphy; 17th March 2004 at 17:29.
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Old 1st March 2004, 16:06   #359  |  Link
Umma
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Quote:
OTOH : did you look on Ebay ?
Nah, they don't have a "try before you buy" option..."


BTW, specise, no file is being created using the crosstalk bidule. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I name a file to be created, I picked a wav song file, I picked one of your SIR impulse files to use...and the directory is still lacking the file I was supposed to create. Processing button is on, so is offline rendering.

Any ideas?
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Old 1st March 2004, 18:46   #360  |  Link
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Have you checked that Player playing and Recorder recording are Linked?
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