The Real 10 Platform - Page 2

S_O · 7th January 2004, 19:21

This sounds really great. I would like to see a complete overview about the new codecs and flavors, unfortunately this file isn´t updated yet:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunit...ceDefaults.xls
Or is a new version somewhere else?

Quote:

does the rv-aac codec support 5.1 output ?
No 5.1 for AAC. Perhaps later. The Multi-channel codec is still RA8 based.

Does that mean both, encoding and decoding is not supported?
If not, please do not make a general error message like "An error has occured while opening the file". I really like QuickTime here it says something like "This file uses ... Quicktime doesn´t suppport yet: MPEG-4 Video: MPEG Quantization"
A general error message is making people angry, because they don´t know why it´s not working.

Quote:

Does the new AAC based encoding still require the downsampling to 44.1kHz?
I think so. Will check.

But the decoder plays all samplerates/bitrates or only the one the Producer can encode?

I remember Real had a deal with Xiph about Vorbis support in RealPlayer? Does RealPlayer support any kind of Vorbis yet? I guess the possibility to mux it into rm is not even started. Or is this completly old and Vorbis has been replaced by AAC now and all started Vorbis support will be removed again?

Quote:

...is that the most recent RV 10 encoder DLL is included...

My first thought: What?? Why the hell do they plan to add encoding support for RealVideo 5 (FourCC: RV10)???? The difference in the numbers in FourCC and the name is sometimes a bit misleading. But this is still RV40, right?

Blight · 7th January 2004, 20:57

karl:
Which direction is Real heading toward? Codec or Playback? I mean, why not release your codecs under a DirectShow setup, at least for the un-ecrypted stuff, or implement your own directshow based DRM. Using a fixed player limits user exposure to your content and the currently available RealAudio/Video wrapper is not perfect and is certainly not future-proof.

RadicalEd · 7th January 2004, 21:19

RealProducer Basic 10 still has max startup latency capped at 25, not sure if this was overlooked or just one of the Basic version handicaps.

edit- also, lossless audio doesn't seem to be in the audio codec menus.

7th January 2004, 21:20

karl: just thx for your work (and to other devs too)

hs: vp6 and rv9 seems to have been improved using doom9 forum feedbacks. I hope this public beta-testing tendance will keep on

Wilbert · 7th January 2004, 23:02

Hi Karl,

I was reading Ars, and they formulated the following questions:

Quote:

There's one last observation to be made. RealPlayer supports iTMS songs (only if iTunes and thus QuickTime 6 is installed on the local computer). Is this a tip of the hat to Apple's 30 million song accomplishment and 70% market share? Maybe so, but Real didn't crack Apple's encryption, but rather goes through iTunes (computer authorization) to decode the files (QuickTime) and play the content. If iTunes (and QuickTime in particular) can function as a free programming interface for Apple's own DRM, there's nothing to stop Winamp and friends from using Apple's DRM as well (we,, aside from telling people that they need to install competing software). So, the question is, did Real find this free "backdoor itself," or is Apple licensing it and staying quiet about it, or is this just a further extension of QuickTime's API? The latter option is most likely true, which leads me to ask: who's next?

I was just curious about the answers

slavickas · 7th January 2004, 23:30

Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass?

Sirber · 8th January 2004, 00:12

Quote:

The Producer SDK on Windows also includes HE-AAC encoding.

Does that mean we can encode HE-AAC?

karl_lillevold · 8th January 2004, 02:26

some more answers:

@S_O: Audience specs with codecs and flavors on hc.org
The hc.org audience spreadsheet has not yet been updated. Included with RealProducer in the docs folder are HTML docs with a table with all the latest codecs, including AAC (raac).

Code:

 64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10  	raac  	0  44.1 kHz 
 96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	1  44.1 kHz 
128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	2  44.1 kHz 
160 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	3  44.1 kHz 
192 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	4  44.1 kHz 
256 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	5  44.1 kHz 
320 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 	raac 	6  44.1 kHz

Multi-channel AAC encoding vs playback
There is no multi-channel AAC encoding. Multi-channel playback? Perhaps.. If not I will file a bug report. Let me know. I don't have any multi-channel .aac files to try.

Improved error messages in RealPlayer
Good advice. RealPlayer's dreaded "A general error has occurred" has bugged me many a time.

AAC playback at 48 kHz
The AAC decoder should play all sample rates. I have no test clips for 48 kHz though. If you have a location where I can get both 48 kHz and multi-channel AAC files, I will be happy to test and file bug reports for whatever does not work.

Vorbis support in RealPlayer
This does not appear to work. It is for sure included with the open source Helix Player though.

RealVideo 10 FourCC code
RealVideo 10, being fully backward compatible, still has FourCC 'RV40'.

@Blight: Codec or playback
Good question, much bigger than I can answer. Certainly not codec only, but there is the codec aspect (See http://www.helixcommunity.org/realcodecs ). There is work going on to better document and make available the codec interfaces. Not sure about ETA.

@RadicalEd: MSL capped at 25 in GUI and missing RA Lossless in menus.
Thanks for finding these bugs. They have been filed and will be fixed.

@Wilbert: Playback of iTMS purchased songs
I can not imagine there being a backdoor.

@slavickas: Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass?
Yes, registry tweaks all work, but with RealVideo 10 being selected as the codec, the only complexity related setting that's needed, is the firstPassComplexity setting, since the current default is to use the same complexity in both passes. When RealVideo 10 is selected as the codec, this corresponds to RV9-EHQ at complexity level 85.

@Sirber: HE-AAC encoding in Producer
The HE-AAC DLL (racp.dll), with codec name 'racp', is not distributed with the Producer Application for licensing reasons, but it is included with the Producer SDK.

snowcrash · 8th January 2004, 02:39

Just downloaded the new Producer 10 Basic to check out the GUI tool. Looks pretty nice. I tried to enable resizing for my video.

"You must upgrade to RealProducer Plus to enable this feature."

What does the Plus version cost, 200 bucks? No thanks. Microsoft provides a free GUI encoder to their users with all the features enabled. This thing is useless to me without resizing.

karl_lillevold · 8th January 2004, 02:50

@snowcrash: Yes, I know.

It does not make sense to me either, and I am trying to change it. A "Helix" version of Producer 10 will be out soon though, command line version, but full-featured.

Sagittaire · 8th January 2004, 02:53

EHQ with quality mode is enable ... ???

iwod · 8th January 2004, 02:57

@Karl

Is the new PP included in RealPlayer 10? Or is it still currently being developed?

karl_lillevold · 8th January 2004, 03:09

@Sagittaire: I am not 100% sure I understand your question, but let me try to illustrate. Remember it's all really the same codec.

Code:

85               RV10 high   
75               RV10 medium 
65  RV9 high     RV10 low    
57  RV9 medium 
50  RV9 low

Both RV9 and RV10 default to 'high' unless you specify otherwise. The encoding mode (CBR, VBR, Quality) is not related to encoding complexity. As you can see from the above chart, 'RV10 low' is the exact same as 'RV9 high', and 'RV10 high' = RV9-EHQ with 85.

You can still use the reg key. Set it to 75 or higher and you will get RV10, set it to 65 or lower and you will get RV9. Both RV9 and RV10 are encoded by the same encoder, and the encoder complexity is really what determines the "codec name".

CruNcher · 8th January 2004, 03:16

hehe i don't know what to think about this marketing gag but it's very odd especialy the Producer Plus and Basic thing lol but i think that's the american way of life to fool customers

Ehhh Karl you didn't sugested to get the Warez version of RealProducer 10 Plus did you

Sirber · 8th January 2004, 03:18

Can we still use the number if EHQ instead of his name and don't bother with this RV9/RV10 thing?

@snowcash

use other GUI. all functions works

satori · 8th January 2004, 06:30

Karl:
Realnetworks will rerease tools to convert RA10 to AAC or mp4?

Please say your boss DO NOT ask mail adress and personal info at the end of install realplayer.
I hate real want to collect personal info.I always put fake adress and info.

Sirber · 8th January 2004, 13:11

Is dropdupe included with priducer 10?

LiFe · 8th January 2004, 13:34

Too bad level 2 partners don't get betas. I'm sure there's plenty of crap I could complain about before it went gold : )

LiFe.

Sirber · 8th January 2004, 13:50

what is level 2 partner?

lazyn00b · 8th January 2004, 15:25

Shame on LiFe! The first rule of Level 2 Partners is "There are no Level 2 Partners"

7th January 2004, 20:57	#22 \| Link
Blight Software Developer Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Israel Posts: 1,000	karl: Which direction is Real heading toward? Codec or Playback? I mean, why not release your codecs under a DirectShow setup, at least for the un-ecrypted stuff, or implement your own directshow based DRM. Using a fixed player limits user exposure to your content and the currently available RealAudio/Video wrapper is not perfect and is certainly not future-proof. __________________ Yaron Gur Zoom Player . Lead Developer

7th January 2004, 21:19	#23 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	RealProducer Basic 10 still has max startup latency capped at 25, not sure if this was overlooked or just one of the Basic version handicaps. edit- also, lossless audio doesn't seem to be in the audio codec menus. Last edited by RadicalEd; 7th January 2004 at 21:22.

8th January 2004, 02:26	#28 \| Link
karl_lillevold Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,584	some more answers: @S_O: Audience specs with codecs and flavors on hc.org The hc.org audience spreadsheet has not yet been updated. Included with RealProducer in the docs folder are HTML docs with a table with all the latest codecs, including AAC (raac). Code: 64 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 0 44.1 kHz 96 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 1 44.1 kHz 128 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 2 44.1 kHz 160 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 3 44.1 kHz 192 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 4 44.1 kHz 256 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 5 44.1 kHz 320 Kbps Stereo Music - RealAudio 10 raac 6 44.1 kHz Multi-channel AAC encoding vs playback There is no multi-channel AAC encoding. Multi-channel playback? Perhaps.. If not I will file a bug report. Let me know. I don't have any multi-channel .aac files to try. Improved error messages in RealPlayer Good advice. RealPlayer's dreaded "A general error has occurred" has bugged me many a time. AAC playback at 48 kHz The AAC decoder should play all sample rates. I have no test clips for 48 kHz though. If you have a location where I can get both 48 kHz and multi-channel AAC files, I will be happy to test and file bug reports for whatever does not work. Vorbis support in RealPlayer This does not appear to work. It is for sure included with the open source Helix Player though. RealVideo 10 FourCC code RealVideo 10, being fully backward compatible, still has FourCC 'RV40'. @Blight: Codec or playback Good question, much bigger than I can answer. Certainly not codec only, but there is the codec aspect (See http://www.helixcommunity.org/realcodecs ). There is work going on to better document and make available the codec interfaces. Not sure about ETA. @RadicalEd: MSL capped at 25 in GUI and missing RA Lossless in menus. Thanks for finding these bugs. They have been filed and will be fixed. @Wilbert: Playback of iTMS purchased songs I can not imagine there being a backdoor. @slavickas: Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass? Yes, registry tweaks all work, but with RealVideo 10 being selected as the codec, the only complexity related setting that's needed, is the firstPassComplexity setting, since the current default is to use the same complexity in both passes. When RealVideo 10 is selected as the codec, this corresponds to RV9-EHQ at complexity level 85. @Sirber: HE-AAC encoding in Producer The HE-AAC DLL (racp.dll), with codec name 'racp', is not distributed with the Producer Application for licensing reasons, but it is included with the Producer SDK. __________________ This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

8th January 2004, 02:50	#30 \| Link
karl_lillevold Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,584	@snowcrash: Yes, I know. It does not make sense to me either, and I am trying to change it. A "Helix" version of Producer 10 will be out soon though, command line version, but full-featured. __________________ This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

8th January 2004, 02:53	#31 \| Link
Sagittaire Testeur de codecs Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 2,484	EHQ with quality mode is enable ... ??? __________________ Le Sagittaire ... ;-) 1- Ateme AVC or x264 2- VP7 or RV10 only for anime 3- XviD, DivX or WMV9

7th January 2004, 21:20	#24 \| Link
Sigmatador Guest Posts: n/a	karl: just thx for your work (and to other devs too) hs: vp6 and rv9 seems to have been improved using doom9 forum feedbacks. I hope this public beta-testing tendance will keep on

7th January 2004, 23:30	#26 \| Link
slavickas I'm Shpongled Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Lithuania Posts: 303	Does registry tweaks works with new basic producer ? and what is complexity for 1rst pass?

8th January 2004, 02:39	#29 \| Link
snowcrash Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 99	Just downloaded the new Producer 10 Basic to check out the GUI tool. Looks pretty nice. I tried to enable resizing for my video. "You must upgrade to RealProducer Plus to enable this feature." What does the Plus version cost, 200 bucks? No thanks. Microsoft provides a free GUI encoder to their users with all the features enabled. This thing is useless to me without resizing.

8th January 2004, 02:57	#32 \| Link
iwod Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 756	@Karl Is the new PP included in RealPlayer 10? Or is it still currently being developed?

8th January 2004, 03:09	#33 \| Link
karl_lillevold Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,584	@Sagittaire: I am not 100% sure I understand your question, but let me try to illustrate. Remember it's all really the same codec. Code: 85 RV10 high 75 RV10 medium 65 RV9 high RV10 low 57 RV9 medium 50 RV9 low Both RV9 and RV10 default to 'high' unless you specify otherwise. The encoding mode (CBR, VBR, Quality) is not related to encoding complexity. As you can see from the above chart, 'RV10 low' is the exact same as 'RV9 high', and 'RV10 high' = RV9-EHQ with 85. You can still use the reg key. Set it to 75 or higher and you will get RV10, set it to 65 or lower and you will get RV9. Both RV9 and RV10 are encoded by the same encoder, and the encoder complexity is really what determines the "codec name". __________________ This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

8th January 2004, 03:16	#34 \| Link
CruNcher Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 4,926	hehe i don't know what to think about this marketing gag but it's very odd especialy the Producer Plus and Basic thing lol but i think that's the american way of life to fool customers Ehhh Karl you didn't sugested to get the Warez version of RealProducer 10 Plus did you __________________ all my compares are riddles so please try to decipher them yourselves :) It is about Time Join the Revolution NOW before it is to Late ! http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004 Last edited by CruNcher; 8th January 2004 at 03:19.

8th January 2004, 03:18	#35 \| Link
Sirber retired developer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,978	Can we still use the number if EHQ instead of his name and don't bother with this RV9/RV10 thing? @snowcash use other GUI. all functions works __________________ Detritus Software Last edited by Sirber; 8th January 2004 at 03:20.

8th January 2004, 06:30	#36 \| Link
satori Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 13	Karl: Realnetworks will rerease tools to convert RA10 to AAC or mp4? Please say your boss DO NOT ask mail adress and personal info at the end of install realplayer. I hate real want to collect personal info.I always put fake adress and info.

8th January 2004, 13:11	#37 \| Link
Sirber retired developer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,978	Is dropdupe included with priducer 10? __________________ Detritus Software

8th January 2004, 13:34	#38 \| Link
LiFe PC Dom: Computer Support Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 165	Too bad level 2 partners don't get betas. I'm sure there's plenty of crap I could complain about before it went gold : ) LiFe.

8th January 2004, 13:50	#39 \| Link
Sirber retired developer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,978	what is level 2 partner? __________________ Detritus Software

8th January 2004, 15:25	#40 \| Link
lazyn00b Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 152	Shame on LiFe! The first rule of Level 2 Partners is "There are no Level 2 Partners"

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