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Old 3rd January 2004, 01:56   #281  |  Link
@ndy
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@specise_8472
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Attention Daphy - just noticed that my old DLL was gone from the site. Was this you, or are you going to have the age old problem of people deleating stuff for the hell of it
That was Daphy and me

So what I can say is that we have to make some rules for the FTP- Sever.

If your file was named "Ambi-rc1.dll" you`ll find it in "\Ambisonic\VST-Plugin\plugins-031231.rar".

The best way to get along is, that all of you upload the files with your nicknames. Instaead of zipping the files there should be a categorized folder in which you can find the uploads as well as an zipped file with all available files in there.

I don`t want you to make double postings, so the threads "stereo to 5 channel surround" and "dedicated ambisonic server online" should be separated.

Feel free to post your uploads of bidules, dlls and somewhat else in the ambisonic post.
All technical problems should be posted in the server posting.

The structure of the FTP- Server is quite easy:
you`ll find all your uploads as soon as possible in the folders named to the subject. I agree that the uploads should not be zipped to find them a little easier (Note: I unzipped the file plugins-031231.rar)

If you have other suggestions of organizing the FTP- Server please let me know

BTW: except of daphy and me has no one the (official) right to delete anything

Last note for this posting:

please upload your files with your nickname in the file file like ČAmbi-rc1_specise_8472.dll".

CU
Andy

Last edited by @ndy; 3rd January 2004 at 02:07.
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Old 3rd January 2004, 11:47   #282  |  Link
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thanks to @ndy I have now uploaded version 1.0 of the Ambiophonic DLL to the server. In a directory named (strangely enouth) ambiophonics.

Take note that the server will be down from 5 - 9 Jan.

@kempfand
hope to upload tomorrow (time permitting, but gotta do things with the partner once in a while) the reverse process I was talking about. The easiest way to use it will be to use Hypercubes HYPERCUBE decoder, can decode AC3 and DTS directly to 6 channel wave

I will be having the inputs to match its output.
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Old 3rd January 2004, 22:29   #283  |  Link
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@ specise_8472 :

Thanks for the Ambi 1.0.dll . I will be happy to test the reverse process. Don't kill yourself (know that partner & friends need time too ). A few questions/comments:

(1) With reference to First and Second Order Ambisonic Decoding Equations I understand what 'Controlled Opposite" and "Spherical Harmonics" means. I'm a bit unclear however as to what you mean with the "O", "P", and "S" -options. Would appreciate if you clarify a bit.

(2)
Quote:
The easiest way to use it will be to use Hypercubes HYPERCUBE decoder, can decode AC3 and DTS directly to 6 channel wave
Preferring BeSweet here, as it well supported and documented

(3) Regarding DTS ES Matrix and
Quote:
Surcode does not allow a true implementation of this
Agree. That's also why I had to force 44.1kHz in order to BeSweet-demux a '44.1_kHz_DTS_ES_Matrix' (using "-ota( -fs 44100" ). Also saw your previous threat on the topic. Regarding a proggie to set the correct flags, there was a previous threat with regard to AC3: Downmix 6.1 EX to normal 5.1, where member 'S_O' talked about a small proggie 'ac3ex'. Might be useful here.

Kind regards,

Andreas
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Old 4th January 2004, 00:38   #284  |  Link
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O P S are just Octagon Centered, Pantagon and Surround decode matrix.
The only difference to Emigrator is that Pentagon is different, in that there is no C channel as such. I re-computed for center and also the other channels so as not to need to do a 30 degree rotate to bring speakers in line.
I noticed that the LR channels in these decodings are far to loud and overpower the surround/c channels. Have fixed this and am implimenting a decent crosstalk cancellation on the LR pair.(hopfully). The IJK are unchanged.

About Surcode. As I said then, DIE ANOTHER DAY uses Matrixed SC channel.(Must do as it does not use the extended channel specs - but all other 6.1DTS I have do). But the flags that are in the specs are obviously not the ones used. Have not got around to investigating this properly yet. At the moment when I get time, I will check out the Sum/Difference flags to see if and how they work.

After reading up on DTS ES again, combined with all the reading I have been doing recently on Dolby surround, I have found a new path to follow regarding this. Thanks for pointing me back down this path.

Will follow up next week.
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Old 4th January 2004, 02:18   #285  |  Link
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Quote:
I noticed that the LR channels in these decodings are far to loud and overpower the surround/c channels. Have fixed this and am implimenting a decent crosstalk cancellation on the LR pair.(hopfully). The IJK are unchanged.


I did a "K" encode of live concert and what bothered me was the rear surrounds seemed too loud. I split the Bidule wav with Besweet into 6 mono files and opened up the files in CEP. The SL wav was HUGE, going to the top and bottom of the scale, and the SR wav was much narrower. I wondered about this, but didn't want to say anything (I am not proficient in audio geekspeak ). I thought maybe there was a reason for it (though I couldn't see it).

Kempfan is right: It rocks, dude. Thank you very much! I like the K encode. We really didn't hear a difference between the others you added.

And I really appreciate it, man!
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Old 4th January 2004, 09:12   #286  |  Link
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You are right. I introduced a big bug when adding the Ambisonics decodes into the mix. For now please keep using the old RC1, which are correct for what you want - IJK. I will add the SC channel into the Ambisonic decodes as well.

As you may have read,I have found how to do DTS6.1 and will be adding it into the mix next release. Actually, looking at my old sourcecode to RC1 I have actually done this mix to create 6.1.

It should work. If not, try putting the streams directly into surcode without any post-processing with besweet. Just split them out unchanged. I have a feeling that things like Besweets Normalization etc may change the signal enouth to confuse the decoder?

As I don't use Besweet, I would like someone to check this out. I have succeded in just resampling from 44.1 to 48.0 to make DVD spec audio okay. But the huge mind-blowing surprise was finding that you can get 6.1 on 44.1 cd audio
(Now I suppose everyone who wants will have to redo all their hard work - assuming anyone wants 6.1 audio cd's

Btw I am using a Marantz 7300ose amp for testing. Works perfectly everytime.
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Old 4th January 2004, 10:56   #287  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by specise_8472
[B]You are right. I introduced a big bug when adding the Ambisonics decodes into the mix. For now please keep using the old RC1, which are correct for what you want - IJK. I will add the SC channel into the Ambisonic decodes as well.
I searched for the old RC1.
It is now available again in theses folders on our FTP-Server : \ambiophonics and \incomming\ambiophonics.

Have fun

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Old 4th January 2004, 11:22   #288  |  Link
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But the huge mind-blowing surprise was finding that you can get 6.1 on 44.1 cd audio
Same experience & surprise here (also played with "007: Die Another Day").

There also is a 6.1 dtswav at SR 5.1 MultiKanal which can be used for testing. On that page, scroll down to "Saga". It says "Coded in DTS-ES, 6.1 Discrete. (All in Swedish)", but my feeling is that it is 'matrixed SC (based on demux and SurCode-reencode).

Quote:
I have a feeling that things like Besweets Normalization etc may change the signal enouth to confuse the decoder?
I always use BeSweet's PreGain Normalization to 100% ( "-ota( -g max )" ), and for me, it worked very good with I, J, & K (RC-1 dll-versions). I realize that DSPGuru recommends using the exact "PreGain Extract Peak chunk" option ( "-ota( -g peak )" ), but I had some problems not doing it "correctly" (which I attributed to the work-in-progress on how Bidule's filewriter actually writes the data).

Regards,
Andreas

Last edited by kempfand; 4th January 2004 at 14:36.
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Old 4th January 2004, 14:26   #289  |  Link
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(Now I suppose everyone who wants will have to redo all their hard work - assuming anyone wants 6.1 audio cd's)


SOME of us po' peoples are still stuck in the dark ages and are financially limited to their once-expensive Yamaha 5240 that has ONLY 5.1...

I'm at work now, and will be for a while, but I have a question. If I add a gain control to the RC1 bidule on the last two going into the sound recorder...the two rear surrounds (so I can lower the rear gains -3dB or so)...AND use Besweet's -ota(-g max), will the resulting mono SR and SL keep their lower gain after splitting the multichannel wav? Or should I stick with -g peak? I only want to do it for some of the live concerts, depending on the clarity of the recording, and this new bidule really adds some nice, startling dimensions to the sound.

Thanks,

D
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Old 4th January 2004, 15:39   #290  |  Link
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Have posted V1.5 and bidule to match.
Major change is removed Ambisonic decodes as feel that emigartor does a good job. It is possible for the author of emigratr to add the SC channel into rigs also.
Have added the z input to the mix as I am now testing the ability to add SC to existing 5.1 original mixes by using the reverse plugin (which computes a z channel)and either redoing whole file this way or just using the reversed wxyz to only compute the SC channel and adding it back to the original file.
I have a lot of testing to do yet on different methods

On adding gains to outputs - play - and let your ears be the judge. What it sounds like to you is based upon your system (speakers, amp, dvd/cd, cable etc etc etc). Play until you get what sounds good to you.

Attn moderators - is it possible to thread split this disscussion on ambiophonics and my plugins out as I feel it is a different way as opposed to EOH method?
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Old 4th January 2004, 16:36   #291  |  Link
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On adding gains to outputs - play - and let your ears be the judge. What it sounds like to you is based upon your system (speakers, amp, dvd/cd, cable etc etc etc). Play until you get what sounds good to you.
That wasn't what I was asking, for that is what I do. My question was more about Besweet after Bidule, and whether or not Besweet will neutralize any gain changes I make in Bidule. As far as I understand it, both -g max and -g peak both normalize the wavs some kind of way...right? I couldn't find the answer using the search.

Did you fix the bug in the new release you posted this morning, or should I still use the RC1 release? I ought to be home in about three more hours...

Pax,

D
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Old 4th January 2004, 23:31   #292  |  Link
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@ All: If you want to get the latest Swiss Center / York Ambisonic VST's, go here: Please note - this is a temporary download page . Please reas the info, especially the "You must inform users of its source and acknowledge its use" (which is only fair, as these people really deserve according credit).

@ specise_8472: I like the logo . On a more serious basis, does v1.5 decode as 'controlled opposites' (which is what I preper) ? If not, could you add an option ? Not trying to 'ask' here, just want to help to improve, test etc.

Kind regards,

Andreas
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Old 5th January 2004, 00:48   #293  |  Link
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On a more serious basis, does v1.5 decode as 'controlled opposites' (which is what I preper) ? If not, could you add an option ? Not trying to 'ask' here, just want to help to improve, test etc.
Controlled opposites only works on Ambisonic decodes. Ambiophonics uses a different method. I removed the ambisonic part out of 1.5. I feel that emigrator does a good job. I might consider doing a different plugin based on Ambisonic alone, with the DTS mixing added in. The SC channel can be added into the set Rigs easy enouth. I am always looking for ways to improve on my plugin. And I removed the ambisonics also so as to concentrate on other things I want in it.
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Old 5th January 2004, 09:37   #294  |  Link
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And another one.........

Hi all,

I am pretty much behind on the latest developments, due to my illness.
But I have a lot of contact with Kempfand and yesterday we did some tests to compare the Specise Ambiophonics with a new one we found online.
These tests are posted on alt.binaries.sounds.dts.
Download hot.wav from me and the repost hcDTS.wav from Kempfand and compare. Let's see if you all come to the same conclusion as I did....

Now you want to know about this new method, huh ?

It's a VST plugin you can use in Plogue.
The name is CS II VST and you van download a 7 days trial at http://www.srslabs.com.
Don't look at the price :-) Quality comes with a high pricetag !!

Here are the details to make a bidule (the FTP site is in Egypt now..... 0.0 K/s connection :-))

1. Install the plugin
2. Use the decoder
3. Use a stereo file player and a 6 channel recorder
4. The settings of the plugin :
- circle surround : on
- rear center : off (we keep it 5.1 because of the 6 channel recorder !)
- center : on
- post/process : ON (if you want to use True Bass and Dialog clarity)
- True bass LFE : on (5.1) with a setting of 5.0 (this has nothing to do with number of the channels !)
- True bass front : off (other way round for 5.0 !)
- Dialog clarity : on setting : 5.0
5. The pin connections from CS to the recorder :
(first=CS second=recorder)
1-1
2-2
3-3
4 not used
5-5
6-6
7-4
6. Demux with Besweet


To me this sounds as one of the best stereo to surround conversions I ever heard !!
I'm anxious to hear your opinions.........

kind regards,

EoH

Last edited by Eye of Horus; 6th January 2004 at 12:13.
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Old 5th January 2004, 10:19   #295  |  Link
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I had a look at this a short time ago. As you say good.
I use the Windows Media player version all the time. Does a good job.
If you want, I can make a vst module to mix the outcoming signal into a valid DTS neo6 signal?
I already basically have this as I wrote it to test out my DTS theory.
SC in and mixed with LS RS for output.
Just tell me if you want a particular order of input to output. I can make a simple 3in 2 out if you want.

BTW nice to see you back on deck EOH.
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Old 5th January 2004, 10:43   #296  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by specise_8472
I had a look at this a short time ago. As you say good.
I use the Windows Media player version all the time. Does a good job.
If you want, I can make a vst module to mix the outcoming signal into a valid DTS neo6 signal?
I already basically have this as I wrote it to test out my DTS theory.
SC in and mixed with LS RS for output.
Just tell me if you want a particular order of input to output. I can make a simple 3in 2 out if you want.

BTW nice to see you back on deck EOH.
It will take at least another 5.5 months to fully recover, but at least I can concentrate now for more than 30 minutes :-)
There is a huge difference between the WMP or Winamp plug, compared to the VST plug !
BTW I only have and use 5.1, but be my guest and come up with some more good work

grtz,

EoH
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Old 6th January 2004, 01:20   #297  |  Link
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.

.

Last edited by DSP8000; 6th January 2004 at 14:06.
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Old 6th January 2004, 12:10   #298  |  Link
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layout adjusted in the original CS VST message !

Kempfand showed me the channel mapping can be done without my extra step.
This reminds me again that I am not completely healed yet :-)

I edited the message !

EoH
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Old 6th January 2004, 23:14   #299  |  Link
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Been awhile but hey lifemoves you in different directions heh.


well I just tried the circle surround thing... I'm not saying its bad. but my observation finds that it deminishes the fullness of a song... but yes it does direct the vocals more to the center channel... my test subject was limp biscuit behind blue eyes, so nothing outstanding "musicaly".
I wanna call it a softer take on surround sound.
I did play the reg ambisonic one right after the circle surround... I think that they proly have there best and worst uses each... not considering that everyone has different taste.
I guess it would be the soundstage is larger in reg.... I would not recommend circle surround to any heavy music but for softer music proly a nicer touch. and if you're not doing music with vocals theres no sense in it.


Glad to see you guys are still hammering away at this... my 3 version dvd turned out sweet.. as i did 3 versions of a couple albumns 1 was 2 channel DTS and 1 was 3ch DTS and of course 6 ch dts... took some time not having offline mode but now I see I can get it done quikly ;-)
and almost time to upgrade my rotel
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Old 8th January 2004, 17:23   #300  |  Link
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Hi, I've been following this thread as best as I can...although I will admit that I get a little lost with the more technical stuff. I have followed the original guide in the first post and gotten good results.

It seems that there have been a few updates in the last few pages of this thread. Not understanding all of them very well, I'm just wondering if I should still be following the guide as shown in the first post, or are there updates that I should be considering that yield "better" results??
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