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Old 8th August 2003, 19:04   #81  |  Link
kwag
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Old 8th August 2003, 22:18   #82  |  Link
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@Kwag: Next time I will strike you. I will not have your strong opinions start a flamewar! I have always been fair to you, so be fair to me too.
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Old 8th August 2003, 23:41   #83  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holomatrix
I am trying to get the movie 'Phonebooth' below a Q of 63 with is only 80 min which I know would give me better results by doing a multi-pass encode instead.
Beware: Multipass (2 pass, for instance) will not give you signifficantly better quality than OPV if you still confine the movie to 1 CD. Neither n-pass would.

Multipass will spread a little better the scarce BR available, but that's it. On 1 CD rips there's no much BR to spare.

So you may say, "I'll go for multipass 2 CDs then", to which a good answer would be: go for OPV, 2 CDs. Half the time, comparable quality.
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Old 9th August 2003, 18:28   #84  |  Link
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Re: This stuff is GREAT

Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
Just encoded Solaris [...] and I got the following:

CVD, Q=6
SVCD, Q=12

Both length=01:32:46 (credits cutted), Video BR=1073, Audio BR=96, only 1 CD!

Just unbelievable!
Guys, I have terrible news for us all. You know, when something is incredible, unbelievable, wonderful, and all those spectacular first impressions you get, I always keep on thinking on it for a while. And most of the time I find out that too good to be true stuff is really too good to be true, if you know what I mean

So I did some more checking. I tried the movie above without any filtering, and with the simple, quicker and worthy UnDot()+Deen() companion. Here are my findings. The columns are sorted by descending Q.
Code:
Movie:	Solaris	
Length:	1:32:46	(133468 frames, 23.976 fps)
	(no credits)	
Audio BR	96	kbps Stereo
Target size	1	CD
Target MPV size	 713	MB
Target Video BR	 1.073 	kbps
D2Sroba	Default values	

Setup	Resolution_________________	SVCD	SVCD	SVCD	CVD
	Determined Q_______________	14	12	10	6
	Estimated Video BR_________	 1.123 	 1.073 	 1.092 	 1.071 
Filters	SemiAutoCrop & Resize______	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
	MAF________________________	No	Yes	No	Yes
	UnDot()+Deen()_____________	No	No	Yes	No
Results	Actual MPV size [MB]_______	 726 	 704 	 719 	 700 
	Encode Duration____________	1:03	2:45	2:09	2:04
	Target Size/Actual Size____	98%	101%	99%	102%
	CCE Speed__________________	 1,47 	 0,56 	 0,72 	 0,75
First of all I must say that the quality of all encodes is great. Even the unfiltered one. Let's see some conclusions:
  • MAF takes 1.3 times more than UnDot()+Deen(), and does not reduce Q as much.
  • In MAF, by its adaptative nature, actual sizes end up being lower than target sizes (you will not overflow), but error is bigger.
  • The use of UnDot()+Deen(), since not adaptative, predicts better. It cleans and homogeinizes the whole source in the same way, and probably more than MAF, so it allows to predict more precisely. It seems to overflow a little, though.
  • When you have a very clean and compressible movie with a low Q, not doing any filtering will save you a lot of time!
  • The incredible low BR of this Solaris encode does not yield on the MAF script, but on the compressibility of the movie (dark and green, and 16:9, same as DDogg's "the mtrx"). (So, what else is new )

I'm certain this is a one movie only test, but at least clears up the "less that wonderful" results after all.

Things like this remind me of people still trying to build perpetual motion machines, turning lead into gold and stuff like that

The bottom line is, IMHO, MAF is great, but not much greater than simple known already filtering, and the most important thing is it will not do any magic, nor is the panacea to 1 CD rips. Just compresses the source a bit, and takes a lot of time.
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Last edited by r6d2; 9th August 2003 at 21:37.
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Old 9th August 2003, 20:14   #85  |  Link
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Ain't that just some doody in your oatmeal!

Just dropped my Q by 10 points using my standard deen(), undot() and undot() again after the import line of Gert's semi-auto over using semi-auto with MAF. Well, at least I know this encode like the back of my hand so I can do a good compare when I screen it.
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Old 9th August 2003, 21:19   #86  |  Link
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Re: Re: This stuff is GREAT

Quote:

The bottom line is, IHMO, MAF is great, but not much greater than simple known already filtering, and the most important thing is it will not do any magic, nor is the panacea to 1 CD rips. Just compresses the source a bit, and takes a lot of time.
That's not the case if you are encoding a very high action film. That's where the MA script will really shine, and reduce your file size considerably.
I do agree that if you are encoding a slow action film, some parts of the MA script are really not necessary. Like the "blurring" part. You will still benefit from the "Temporal" MA section of the filter, as it will help clean up very low action parts of the movie. But I would still use undot and a very low temporal filter statically on all frames, to reduce noise spots
It's really up to anyone to "Plug-in" whatever filter they want to make adaptive. The framework is already there, provided by AviSynth, so it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a fixed Temporal/Blurr MA filter. The limit is the imagination

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Old 9th August 2003, 21:43   #87  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: This stuff is GREAT

Hi, Kwag, and welcome back to the forum

Word of mouth is you're doing some testing with CCE and DVD2SVCD. Did you try the MAF+CCE stuff?

Quote:
Originally posted by kwag
That's not the case if you are encoding a very high action film. That's where the MA script will really shine, and reduce your file size considerably.
I'll try it with the Back to the Future Trilogy, guess it qualifies as a high action movie. Does it, according to your experience?
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Old 9th August 2003, 21:51   #88  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This stuff is GREAT

Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
Did you try the MAF+CCE stuff?
No, but because of the nature of the MA design, it shouldn't make any difference no matter what encoder you use.
Quote:


I'll try it with the Back to the Future Trilogy, guess it qualifies as a high action movie. Does it, according to your experience?
Sure it does! But a better test would be something like "Black Hawk Down" or something similar. That's where you'll see the real file size drop

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Old 9th August 2003, 22:21   #89  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This stuff is GREAT

Quote:
Originally posted by kwag
[B]No, but because of the nature of the MA design, it shouldn't make any difference no matter what encoder you use.
Oh, my... I never though I'd hear you to say that!

If I only could get MPEG-1 working with TMGPEnc and DVD2SVCD to take advantage on the good low BR MPEG-1 encodes you do...
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Old 9th August 2003, 23:54   #90  |  Link
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Yep, my test encode using just standard semi-auto with undot(), deen() and undot() again after the import line was as good or better than the semi-auto w/MAF I did yesterday. Source 147 mins progressive NTSC, Bitrate was 907, Q for 1st run was 48 with bias 10.
480x480 4:3 full screen. Encoding method used was 1 pass Roba which is 2 passes total.

Last edited by DDogg; 10th August 2003 at 00:00.
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Old 10th August 2003, 00:18   #91  |  Link
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This stuff is GREAT

Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
I'll try it with the Back to the Future Trilogy
I guess it's going to be Back to 2 Discs Trilogy...

SemiAutoCrop, standard: Q=63 (not by hard limit, but by actual BR)
MAF: Q=62
MAF modified with Deen() instead of STMEdian: Q=58

IMHO, all encodes suck, even on 100% visual you can see the artifacts.

I'd try SemiAuto standard with UnDot()+Deen()+UnDot() as per DDogg's suggestion, but I decided to go 2 discs anyway and put in a second audio track.

(@Kwag, I guess it was not a high action movie after all. Maybe we can ask Zemeckis to incorporate more action on a future remake to get it on 1 CD )
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Old 10th August 2003, 01:24   #92  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by DDogg
Yep, my test encode using just standard semi-auto with undot(), deen() and undot() again after the import line was as good or better than the semi-auto w/MAF I did yesterday. Source 147 mins progressive NTSC, Bitrate was 907, Q for 1st run was 48 with bias 10.
480x480 4:3 full screen. Encoding method used was 1 pass Roba which is 2 passes total.
So are you doing this? ;

Undot()
Deen()
Import Semi ...
Undot()

for me file size was only a bit smaller.
Tested a chapter at 50 Q bias 14 with SemiMAF =20,065 meg, Semi Un+Deen+un =20,040 meg
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Old 10th August 2003, 18:24   #93  |  Link
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I just did Daredevil. 480x480 SVCD. DVD2SVCd with MAF script. CCE speed = .650 D2Sroba came up with a Q of 38 for a 1 Cd encode.


Code:
========================================================
D2SRoBa v2.4.4 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
OS Version: WIN_XP
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-08-10 09:33:49
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
-   CD size                 : 800
-   Number of CD's          : auto
-   Worst Q. factor         : 40
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
-   Sample percentage       : 2.0
-   Sample GOPs             : 1
-   Adjust Q.               : 0.8
-   Safety Zone             : 34
+ Do credits bitrate tweak  : 0
-   Start time              : 0:00:00
-   Bitrate                 : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length       : 01:43:35 (149030 frames, 23.976 fps)
- Audio size est     : 124315983. bytes (160 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size  : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- SelectRangeEvery   : every 750, select 15 frames
- Num. sample frames : 2985
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Estimated mpv size : 666565608. (Q=40, 857 kbps, 13350992 sample sz)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs      : 1
- Target mpv size    : 689790437. (887 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 759827533. (Q=32, 977 kbps, 15218984 sample sz)
- Computed  mpv size : 713196571. (Q=36, 917 kbps, (Q40+Q32)/2)
- Estimated mpv size : 687524668. (Q=38, 884 kbps, 13770792 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 697181213. (Q=37, 897 kbps, 13964208 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (689790437. / 49.9262981574539 - 13770792) / (14284988. - 13770792)
- Adjust Q : (38 + 1.0 - 8.82587379954006e-002 - (0.8)) = 38.1117412620046
- Determined Q.      : 38
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor  : 38
- opv_brate_max : 1931 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 887
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-08-10 09:54:50
--------------------------------------------------------
- Actual mpv file size:
  08/10/2003  12:32 PM         690475136 Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv
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Old 10th August 2003, 18:39   #94  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by telemike
I just did Daredevil. 480x480 SVCD. DVD2SVCd with MAF script. CCE speed = .650 D2Sroba came up with a Q of 38 for a 1 Cd encode.
Not bad. I think though that 160 for audio is too much for a 1 CD rip. The 10% rule advises to go for 96 in this case, which would give you a 951 BR, likely to be a Q=34 for video.
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Old 10th August 2003, 18:48   #95  |  Link
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I usually use 160k audio for 2-cd encodes and 128k for 1-cd's. Howver, I thought D2sroba was going to do a 2-cd encode since I set 40 as my worst Q.
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Old 10th August 2003, 20:10   #96  |  Link
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I do some tests on this topic, too, so can someone post this undot(),Deen(), Semi(),Undot()-Script, cause I'm a total newbie on this.
I wouldn't get it work in 5 years!

My first results on this topic is, that it doesn't matter what script or how many cds you take, the human eye won't realize any change!

The TV-screen is so "bad", I didn't notice the artifacts which are clearly visibel on the PC-screen, and I think noone would!

I'll go for a 1cd encode of every movie 'til I get a DVD writer, the options to get a satisfying 1cd encode are quite good, good enough!

This is just my opinion, so feel free to persuade me of another opinion, but plz with some understandable, no theoretical or technical stuff!

Greetz, Crackhead
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Old 10th August 2003, 23:37   #97  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crackhead
The TV-screen is so "bad", I didn't notice the artifacts which are clearly visibel on the PC-screen, and I think noone would!
IMHO you are very close to the absolute truth here, if such a thing exists
Quote:
I'll go for a 1cd encode of every movie 'til I get a DVD writer, the options to get a satisfying 1cd encode are quite good, good enough!
However, why a DVD writer would change your mind then? Your 1CD encodes will continue to look good enough!
Quote:
This is just my opinion, so feel free to persuade me of another opinion, but plz with some understandable, no theoretical or technical stuff!
OK, not trying to evangelize here, but my thoughts on the matter are the following (I consider myself just a movie fan and I'd love to hear the experts too in an understandable language):

My next TV will (hopefully) be an HDTV. Its resolution are about 720x1280 (Progressive) and 1080x1920 (Interlaced). That's quite more than double what we have today. My DVD player has a zoom mode (I guess most do). So, when encoding, I do my tests in 2x Zoom mode. If it's not too blurry, my bet is that this encode will look reasonably well on an HDTV.

There are currently players being developed to support this kind of resolutions (as well as DivX! and MPEG-4 in general!)

On sample here:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/video...ackground.html

As I said, this is my bet. I don't know if it is a good one
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Old 11th August 2003, 11:06   #98  |  Link
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I have a 43" HDTV.

SVCD's done at 480x480 look great. CVD at 352x480 looks blocky and jaggy.

I don't use my Terapin VCD recorder anymore since it's CBR1150 VCD @ 352x240 and it it blocky but watchable.
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Old 16th August 2003, 08:00   #99  |  Link
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I just purchased Gangs of New York 2 CD set which has the movie split into 2 discs, which, when I realized this I thought it would be a great test for this (3 cd's would be a pain to make out of 2 different DVD's; ~1:30 a piece). I used this method, and ended up with Q64 (not surprising, because it's over 4 gb's to begin with (one part), and I'm doing 128 main, 96 comments audio as a test). Other movies that I have done without the MAF script (and without 2nd audio) do not look anywhere near as good as this one, even with lower Q values. I'm not sure what is causing this, but if anyone has this movie and is willing to try, please do, and tell me I'm not crazy?

If this is the results I can get with this script, then I will never go back to the original method I was encoding with.

Thanks for all your suggestions, DDogg, and everyone else in this thread!!!

Regards,
Barker

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Old 16th August 2003, 15:26   #100  |  Link
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Barker, as I am sure you know, it ALL depends on the compressibility of a given source. Some 90 minute sources will look pretty decent, whereas some will not. This is definitely not a one size fits all kind of thing. As mentioned before are the classic examples of "The Mtrx" and "SPRyan". Forgetting the lengths, the first example is material that compresses extremely well, while the second is pure hell and normally requires nearly twice the bitrate for the same section of length (that maybe is slight exaggeration to make the point).

You might want to play around with making a notation of the size of the first Q32 prediction run (D2SRoBa_Q32.mpv) of D2SRoBa on a source you have found to have YOUR minimum acceptable quality on 1 CD for YOUR viewing vehicle. Chances are (not always), if another encode has the same or smaller size for that same prediction pass, it will be ok to at least try to put it on 1 cd (assuming you used the same script and the same settings in CCE). This can save you a lot of useless attempts and wasted time and it takes into consideration both the compressibility AND the length of the source.

Here is an example of my own personal "Compression Index" (I always use the same test script and same test cce settings [Edit: sample size in D2SRoBa for this test was 1%]:

1> "Final Dstination" --- D2SRoBa_Q32.mpv = 8,196KB, Len -- 133341 frames Time 1:32:41 Target mpv size:-(1043 kbps)
2> "The Usual Sspxts" - D2SRoBa_Q32.mpv = 10,380KB, Len - 148070 frames Time 1:42:55 Target mpv size:-(926 kbps)
3> "The Mtrix" -------- D2SRoBa_Q32.mpv = 8,388KB, Len --- 186356 frames Time 2:09:32 Target mpv size:-(709 kbps)


I know from experience that #1 and #3 (barely) on 1 cd is acceptable to me, whereas #2 is not. So, if the D2SRoBa_Q32.mpv is much bigger than 8,300 I normally just go for 2 cds and same myself a lot of aggravation. Note above how the target bitrate is not the indicator of quality!

Last edited by DDogg; 16th August 2003 at 19:51.
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