Ateme H.264 Beta - Quality Feedback

[Andrey]

Hey it seems that you're conducting your own feedback thread over there

I wouldn't tell that it is feedback, he simply share screenshots and people can discuss them...
I hope it will not break an agreement...
Personally, I like to discuss such a things like perceptual quality in native language too...
EDIT: RBF was faster

[bobololo]

@RBF, Andrey: There is no problem with the thread on your Russian board. I was only frustrated to know that you're discussing about the encoder and not be able to understand what was said over there

[708145]

Originally posted by thegeby
As you might have seen, I have been looking at 720p/1080p encoding. My aim is to retain both original resolution and quality. Now a WMV 720 may be 6,5 Mb/s and I find that 4Mb/s at cbr fulfils my requirements. 3Mb/s has worked on some snips. I would not deliberately try to go much lower on cbr.

As JohnV suggests, a careful 2pass script could improve the results. In my experience Xvid can not deliver enough at 3 Mb/s. There are many resons to be annoyed at MS, but WMV is a very good codec and to expect double compression from Xvid, that is after all built on a previous generation codec (apologies to our Xvid gurus), seems a bit hopeful. Looking at comments on avsforum, original MPEG-2 HDTV seems to hover around 11-13 Mb/s for quality transmission

I was not saying WMV9 and ASP are comparable. I was not expecting transparency from XVID at 3Mbps. I just stated that XVID "produces very good results at 3Mbps". BTW I'm currently watching video with an angle of 23° on a TRINITRON.

I'm gonna test this XVID clip on a flatscreen later today.
Too bad I can't play those AVC encodes there

I used 2pass and whole clips.

bis besser,
Tobias

[thegeby]

BTW I'm currently watching video with an angle of 23° on a TRINITRON.

I know what you mean, my best computer, and the only one that handles 1080p repectably, is hooked up to a 10-year old Sony 25" via S-Video as the HTPC monitor. My best screen is hooked up to a 1.8 Celeron

[Sagittaire]

[HS: MPEG2 and MPEG4 with HDTV resolution]

HDTV bitrate with MPEG2

For calculate bitrate equivalence in HDTV resolution with DVD resolution I use two mathematical formulation:
bitrate/(pixels*fps)
bitrate/(pixel^(3/4)*fps) -> very better estimation

DVD MPEG2 720*480*30 use generaly ~5 Mbps for Average Bitrate
0.48 bit/pel
11.69 Qs

HDTV MPEG2 1280*720*30 with equivalent quality for each pixel
0.48 bit/pel -> ~13 Mbps
11.69 Qs -> ~10 Mbps

HDTV MPEG2 1920*1088*30 with equivalent quality for each pixel
0.48 bit/pel -> ~30 Mbps
11.69 Qs -> ~19 Mbps


HDTV bitrate with MPEG4

MPEG4 and clone (MPEG4 ASP, MPEG4 AVC, VP6, WMV9, RV10) are very better codec than MPEG2 especialy for high resolution. MPEG4 and clone use ~ +/- bitrate/2 for equivalent quality with MPEG2:

MPEG4 720*480*30 ~2.5 Mbps for Average Bitrate
0.24 bit/pel
5.84 Qs

HDTV MPEG4 1280*720*30 with equivalent quality for each pixel
0.24 bit/pel -> ~6.5 Mbps
5.84 Qs -> ~5 Mbps

HDTV MPEG4 1920*1088*30 with equivalent quality for each pixel
0.24 bit/pel -> ~15 Mbps
5.84 Qs -> ~9 Mbps

[/HS]

[thegeby]

I don't want to go off topic but this is a recent quote from AVS forum

"I took a quick sample and got the following...

HBO HD 13.9mb/s
Showtime HD 6.5mb/s (lowest I've ever recorded)
HDNet Movies 7.8mb/s (lowest for HDNet Movies I've ever recorded)

These were 5 minute samples, so I'll definitely need to collect more data, but it appears they are giving HBO more bandwidth than the other two."

Full HDTV is, as you say, 19 Mb/s, but there is no guarantee that is what you get.

[Sagittaire]

RE HS ... sorry Bobololo and Babayaga

HBO HD 13.9mb/s
Showtime HD 6.5mb/s (lowest I've ever recorded)
HDNet Movies 7.8mb/s (lowest for HDNet Movies I've ever recorded)

Joey on NBC HDTV 1080i 14.0 Mbps for Average Bitrate from little transport stream sample ...

little capture in High Motion start credit
http://jfl1974.free.fr/Video/Joey-NBC-HDTV.jpg

and



No Comment ...

DVD forum choose HD-DVD with "blue ray technologie" because DVD9 are unable to contain 120 min of 1080i/p MPEG2 ...

- Codec: MPEG2 HP@HL, H264 or WMV9
- Resolution Max 1080i/p with 30 fps, 720i/p with 60fps
- Capacity: HD-DVD single layer 15 GB, HD-DVD dual layer 30 GB


MPEG2 codec

MPEG2 576p ~ 5 MBps
DVD5: 120 min
DVD9: 220 min
HD-DVD15: 400 min
HD-DVD30: 800 min

MPEG2 720p ~ 10 MBps
DVD5: 60 min
DVD9: 120 min
HD-DVD15: 200 min
HD-DVD30: 400 min

MPEG2 1080p ~ 19 MBps
DVD5: 30 min
DVD9: 60 min
HD-DVD15: 100 min
HD-DVD30: 200 min


H264 or WMV9 codec

H264/WMV9 576p ~ 2.5 MBps
DVD5: 240 min
DVD9: 440 min

H264/WMV9 720p ~ 5 MBps
DVD5: 120 min
DVD9: 220 min

H264/WMV9 1080p ~ 9 MBps
DVD5: 70 min
DVD9: 130 min


HD-DVD could contain H264/WMV9 encoding in 1080i/p 30 fps or 720i/p 60 fps with ~19 Mbps for ~200 min of video: for these codec it's a low quantizer and ultra high quality preset ... it's practically a lossless quality ...

[Soulhunter]

Gah, are you sure its not LDTV...

Btw, the new beta rocks !!!


Bye

[bobololo]

Here is a nice contribution from SoulHunter :

http://nero.ateme.com/beta_encodes/T...y@1000kbps.mp4

Enjoy

[SeeMoreDigital]

Wow, Soulhunter that's so cool.

Thanks bobololo for posting the clip and I'm so sorry I've not able to take a more proactive roll

As soon as my current crop of work is completed I'll format my PC and hopefully have a more stable PC to commence testing...

I'm still reading the posts and testing the clips and look forward to more releases as and when they arrive.

Keep up the good work guys....

My apologies again.

[Sagittaire]

with Bobololo authorization

Test preview: little Matrix reloaded sample 500 Kbit/s

Source from Matrix Reloaded PAL 720x576 16/9 MPG2 MP@ML 6150 Kbps chapter 20 to 26. ~2000 Kbit/s with XviD q2 default setting.

H264 sample
VP6 sample
RV10 sample
WMV9 sample
XviD sample
DivX5 sample

H264 Ateme setting:
-qual extra -rcmode 2pass -br 512000 -deblock 0 -ref 5 -setef wpred -cartoon -psy 1 -priority idle

H264: 41.9397 dB
VP6: 41.5968 dB
RV10: 41.0143 dB
WMV9: 40.7542 dB
XviD: test in progress
DivX: test in progress



... and here my new signature

[IgorC]

Thanks to Sagittaire. I beleive to his comparation always. There are a lot of fails comparations without any sentence. So I'm downloading.

[IgorC]

Seems like decoder of Neroshowtime doesnt support beta 4.

[Manao]

Sagittaire used "weighted prediction" which is not supported by the Nero Showtime filters.

Edit : I may be wrong, wait for bobololo's confirmation.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by IgorC
Seems like decoder of Neroshowtime doesnt support beta 4.

It should do. It works here. Except the seeking is b0rked. Which is a known problem!

Nice encode Soulhunter. I like that you decided to used an PAL DVD pixel frame size with AR signalling... very cool!

The codec copes particularly well will the "flash" transition scenes...


Cheers

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

Nice encode Soulhunter. I like that you decided to used an PAL DVD pixel frame size with AR signaling... very cool!

The codec copes particularly well will the "flash" transition scenes...

Yes, considering the relative low bitrate it looks amazing !!!

XviD changed my mind about encoding, Ateme could do the same...

Anyhow, for "real" backups I would aim for bitrates around 2500 kbps !!!


@ All

About the final release...

I would prefer a simple standalone (AVS2MP4 GUI) version instead of a Recode2 "inbuild" one !!!


Bye

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
...Anyhow, for "real" backups I would aim for bitrates around 2500 kbps !!!

Well I'm kinda hoping that we'll all be able to generate AVC encodes at lower bit-rates than this!

Obviously, when generating encodes from short sources, it's difficult to assess how well AVC will perform with an full movie back-up!

For those of us who may have 1CD back-ups of say, an 90-100min movie, generated in 2pass DivX or XviD at 720x480 or 720x576 (ie:1:1), I think it would be interesting to generate some of those movies again using Ateme's AVC in 2passes.

Personally I've never been a big fan of comparing an codecs performance using anything less than an 1:1 pixel frame size (PFS)... As it's always been my opinion that a codec should be made to work hard and look good when viewed on a big screen.... just as with an DVD.


Cheers

[LostMP4]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
About the final release...

I would prefer a simple standalone (AVS2MP4 GUI) version instead of a Recode2 "inbuild" one !!!

Would you like to pay Ateme for that?
I guess they sell their codec to Ahead, it's not a gift and on Ahead side it looks like they love to create a lot of GUIs and spread different functionalities in different programs in a random way :P

[JohnV]

Originally posted by LostMP4
Would you like to pay Ateme for that?
I guess they sell their codec to Ahead, it's not a gift and on Ahead side it looks like they love to create a lot of GUIs and spread different functionalities in different programs in a random way :P

I don't think it's so simple that Ateme just sells the codec to Ahead and that's it. Nero Digital is a co-operation and co-development of both Ateme and Ahead, and Ateme is behind the Nero Digital concept as well.

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

Well I'm kinda hoping that we'll all be able to generate AVC encodes at lower bit-rates than this!

Keep in mind that my usually XviD bitrates are somewhere between 3000-4000 kbps...

Btw, Im also not able to play Sagittaire's H264 sample via NeroShowtime player !?!

But playback through MPlayer using the Ateme filters works...


@ LostMP4

Maybe as a small bonus that comes with Recode2 then...

Or someone here codes a gui (as besweet/aac) ???


Bye