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Old 16th February 2002, 18:40   #1  |  Link
Ripe73
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Decomb 3.1 & PAL

HI!
I have a movie Dungeons & Dragons PAL Interlaced i tried swap field in DVD2AVI but it did not help so i want to try out Decomb and what script should i put in to the *.avs
decimate(2) gives me 12.5fps i dont want to change the framrate so i tried with Telecide() only and it looks okay when i scrool in V-dub but is that right?
Thanks for help
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Last edited by Ripe73; 16th February 2002 at 21:45.
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Old 17th February 2002, 00:16   #2  |  Link
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@Ripe73

Yes, Sir, you have it right. You need Decimate only when you want to reduce the framerate. Typically, PAL does not need that, although there are some cases where an extra frame is added for every 24 frames; in this case you'd want Decimate(cycle=25). If you see stuttering about once per second, you can try it. Or you can step through the processed video and see if you have one duplicate frame out of every 25 frames.

Your script can be simply:

Telecide()

and follow it with

Decimate(cycle=25)

...if required.
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Old 17th February 2002, 10:21   #3  |  Link
Ripe73
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Thanks!!
I used only Telecide() but the result is little jerky and i checked the movie in V-dub and some frames are double sometimes so i started new firstpass with Decimate(cycle=25) and the fps in V-dub is very unstable 7-15fps is that normal?
Thanks
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Last edited by Ripe73; 17th February 2002 at 10:46.
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Old 17th February 2002, 12:10   #4  |  Link
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Yes, it is normal when Decimate(25) is applied. How is the final result?
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Old 17th February 2002, 14:19   #5  |  Link
Ripe73
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HI!

The result is very good with XviD,Decomb and Ogg
Thanks
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Old 17th February 2002, 15:36   #6  |  Link
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Greetings fellow encoders,

As you see, this is my first post. I subscribed merely to give you (neuron) my respect for creating a filter which is in such a need.

I used the decomb package on both regio codes.
On NTSC it was a peace a cake with the Telecide (chroma=true) and decimate (5) it produced beautiful results> real sharp encodes. Also, it took me 5 minutes to apply this filter in the AVS script whereas I never IVTC'ed before in my life. Concluding that your manual is very easy to understand.

Mostly however I use PAL dvd's anime. I also used the decomb with the
Telecide (chroma=true) and decimate (25) settings. Probably this decimate wasn't needed but no jerkiness occurred. The filter produced again really sharp encodes (I read that with previous releases blurrings sometimes appeared). It's equal to Greedy or even surpasses it qua ghosting and artefacts. However still a significant amount of ghosting and ghosting artefacts occur.

The standard threshold was enough to get rid of all the interlace, besides the fades in/outs, I think this 's because the detector works on luma change which is very little in these motion sequences (screen goes black), correct me if I wrong

Hope you can do something usefull with these observations.
PS: are you planning on further development with pal deinterlace?

With regards,
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Old 18th February 2002, 00:11   #7  |  Link
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@wasbeer66

Thank you for the feedback and kind words.

>However still a significant amount of ghosting and
>ghosting artefacts occur.

Can you be a little more precise here for me? Do you mean you are getting blended frames? If so, have you determined whether your source has blended fields, and if so, what their distribution is? There is a lot of PAL material that is converted from NTSC and often very simple conversions are done that result in blended fields. If these blended fields are limited to either the top or bottom fields, then Telecide 3.11 (not released yet!) can deal with them. If the blended fields appear in both top and bottom, then things are more difficult. The Telecide for VirtualDub can handle that and I plan to add this feature to Decomb's Telecide very soon, as many people really object to these blends (which I find tolerable when played at normal speed). This should help out with your PAL videos. Beyond that, I'm open to suggestions. What do you think is needed?

If by ghosting you are referring to the blend done by the deinterlacing, then you can try turning off the blend option.
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Old 18th February 2002, 23:09   #8  |  Link
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I have taken it into consideration and wil perform it in my next rip. Expect results within days.
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Old 19th February 2002, 02:12   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
If these blended fields are limited to either the top or bottom fields, then Telecide 3.11 (not released yet!) can deal with them. If the blended fields appear in both top and bottom, then things are more difficult. The Telecide for VirtualDub can handle that and I plan to add this feature to Decomb's Telecide very soon, as many people really object to these blends (which I find tolerable when played at normal speed).
Hey, nifty! How do you recognize blended fields?

I've never made the attempt but there is sort of a major problem. If you hit pause it will stop on a key frame, which tends to also stop on scene changes. And this is where the stupid blended fields show up so you have to handle all the questions about them.

- Tom
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Old 19th February 2002, 08:22   #10  |  Link
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Thought you can do this, with the separate fields command in the avs script and then when loaded in nandub/virtualdub you can scroll through the file with the arrow keys. Or am I wrong?
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Old 19th February 2002, 17:31   #11  |  Link
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@trbarry

Quote:
Hey, nifty! How do you recognize blended fields?
I can't recognize them standing alone. But when matched with either of the opposite fields from the previous and following frames (that made up the blend), you'll get combing that can be detected. So, if I am matching the top field of the current frame to the bottom candidates (I use 3 candidates; you use only 2), if I cannot find a match that does not have combing, I will enter a second phase where I try to match the bottom field to the three top candidates. I say "will" because it is not yet implemented in Decomb, but works well in the VirtualDub version of Telecide. As long as both top and bottom are not blends, a good progressive can usually be found.

Edit: It just occurred to me that in the second phase I do not need to compare again for the candidate in the current frame, as that match would have already been tested in the first phase. Just didn't want anyone supposing I couldn't see that.

Last edited by Guest; 19th February 2002 at 17:44.
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Old 19th February 2002, 19:02   #12  |  Link
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Ok, prior to your previous comments I hadn't realized that usually only one field was blended. I wonder why this is. ?? What sort of telecine, rendering, or mangling process would decide to do it this way? There is probably a good reason for it.

I usually try to figure out what the other guy was up to before trying to put things back together.

I notice this even with US HDTV captures that presumably never had to change frame rate, so maybe it is a part of some normal upconversion process.

- Tom
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Old 24th February 2002, 15:18   #13  |  Link
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@neuron2

Currently I'm working on a new anime pal dvd rip.
I would like to show you what I exactly meant by the "artefacts"

Unfortunately, most of the terms you experts use on the deinterlacing process I don't understand.

So please bear with me, I will try to take you through the encode process with screenshots (I these pics ain't sufficient, please request what you exactly want instead).


screenshot 1
This is the original vob loaded in dvd2avi, the interlace as it appears naturally.

screenshot2
Another picture of the same vobfile, still orginal interlace.

screenshot3
The d2v file opened in gknot, still orginal interlace> these are some of the artefacts I was mentioning.

screenshot4
This is the ghosting I was talking about(opened in nandub), applied the following script:
#
# Created with Gordian Knot
#
# http://thewef.nav.to
#
# PLUGINS
# get them from http://users.win.be/dividee
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AVISYNTH\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AVISYNTH\decomb.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AVISYNTH\InverseTelecine.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AVISYNTH\Avisynth_Spatial.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AVISYNTH\GreedyHMA.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\vobsub.dll")
#
# SOURCE
mpeg2source("C:\DVD Ripping\imperfect cell - discovery\His name is cell.d2v")
#
# TRIM
#trim(startframe,endframe)
#
# IVTC
#InverseTelecine(40,10,15)
# or use
#GreedyHMA(1,0,4,0,0,0,0,0)
#
Telecide(chroma=true,blend=false)
# CROPPING
crop(15,6,691,566)
#
# DEINTERLACING
#SmartDeinterlace(2,15,true,true,true)
# or use
#VerticalReduceBy2
# or maybe
#GreedyHMA(1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
#
# DENOISING: choose one combination (or none)
# 1) little noise (fast)
#TemporalSmoother(2,1)
#
# 2) medium noise (slow)
#SpatialSoftenMMX(1,4,6,false,false,4,4,6,8)
#TemporalSmoother(2)
#
# 3) heavy noise (very slow, you have been warned)
#SpatialSoftenMMX(2,4,6,false,false,4,4,6,8)
#TemporalSmoother(3)
#SpatialSoftenMMX(1,4,6,false,false,4,4,6,8)
#
# SUBTITLES
#VobSub("FileName")
#
# RESIZING
BicubicResize(512,384,0,0.75)
#
# BORDERS
#AddBorders(left,top,right,bottom)
#
# COMPRESSIBILITY CHECK
# !Snip Size has to be 13 for use in GKnot!
#SelectRangeEvery(260,13)
#
# FOOL CCEnc
#ResampleAudio(44100)
------------------------------------------------------------
screenshot5
Other deinterlace artefacts after applying the previous script (the lines are remains from a previous frame).

screenshot6
This is the same image but with no deinterlace filters applied at all.
This is where I stand corrected, because if no deinterlace is applied then wouldn't you theoretically end up with the same file as the d2v file? , In the above image (and the rest of the file) deinterlace IS used somewhere but I haven't figured out yet where



PS: When encoding a NTSC dvd from the same anime, all that is needed is IVTC (to framerate 23.976, don't pin me down on this one as it is from memory), thereafter no ghosting and no other artefacts were present. So concluding this is major caused by transverting a NTSC dvd to PAL? (correct me if I'm wrong)

With regards,
Guido
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Old 24th February 2002, 18:23   #14  |  Link
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I see what are probably blended fields causing your ghosting. To comment on the rest, I'd have to have a VOB file. Can you make one available?
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Old 24th February 2002, 18:32   #15  |  Link
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Out of curiosity. Wouldn't it be possible to get better results if you used DoubleWeave and then used Decimate(2) Decimate(5) ?

Last edited by meleth; 24th February 2002 at 18:34.
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Old 24th February 2002, 21:15   #16  |  Link
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@neuron2

I uploaded a chapter from the vob (would be kinda overkill to up the entire vob).
You can find it at ftp>> 137.120.25.194, inlog: neuron2/neuron2.
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Old 24th February 2002, 23:12   #17  |  Link
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Looking at the clip...
If you save the AVI out of DVD2AVI with no field processing, and then use SeparateFields() to view the original clip fields, you can easily see that there are blended fields; these will result in blended frames after processing. The ugly remnants you mentioned are also already there in the source. There is currently nothing you can do to clean this up, although an imminent release of Decomb will handle blended fields better in some circumstances.
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Old 24th February 2002, 23:17   #18  |  Link
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This blended fields crap is starting to become more irksome. It seems there must be some better more general solution. But maybe you've already got it. Dunno.

- Tom
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Old 25th February 2002, 09:09   #19  |  Link
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Well as i figured it anime contains so much blended field since it's usually originally shot at 20 or sometimes 15fps and then they blend the fields in order to get a smooth transition from frame to frame.

I was thinking that perhaps the best way to solve this would be to remove all blended frames and then develop a new directshow filter that would do the blending instead.
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Old 25th February 2002, 13:14   #20  |  Link
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@ripe73

That maybe the case,

However have you taken my note into consideration from my previous post? If I encode the same material from NTSC then there are very few ,perhaps none, blended fields. Only operation I have to perform on it is IVTC. But the PAL material is hell, see my previous post.
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