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Old 18th February 2002, 02:59   #1  |  Link
Joseph2
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Finally, an IfoEdit/CCE working method

This is not a very straightforward method, but it allows to merge CCE-encoded files with IfoEdit-processed menus, titles and extras. I have tried almost every method proposed (included the new Tmpg method included in v0.85) without success. The key of the problem seems to be related with track multiplexing, so the solution I have found is to multiplex with other tool.
These are the main steps in created a totally reauthored DVD backup:
a) Follow Doom9 guides carefully to analyze the DVD, strip streams (audio or subtitles) or any other extra you don't need.
b) Calculate the final video size for the video file to be encoded with CCE in order to fit thr 4.38 Gb of a DVD-R/RW
c) Follow Robshot method to encode with CCE. It should be useful to set chapter/cell frames to be sure you get an "I" frame in the beginning of each cell. However, although I have made several trials including the chapter frames, I have never succeeded in getting the right I frames. There is always a slight difference of 5-10 frames.
d) Multiplex the video with the desired audio and subtitle tracks with any authoring software. I have tried Scenarist, although I suppose that Maestro should also work. The audio tracks have been already decoded in the DVD2AVI step, while the subtitle tracks may be easily moved from the original VOB's to Scenarist via Subrip/Subadjust/MaestroSBT (about 5 minutes each subtitle track through BMP, and avoiding all the OCR stuff).
e) Now the key point: if you just multiplex the files, you will get a collection of working VOB's, with perfectly synch audio, but that do not respect the original chapter points (as the GOP structure has been changed, also the chapter points must be fixed if you want to get a perfect copy). Before multiplexing you must set the cell (not only chapters, but all the cell frames you can get from IfoEdit) in Scenarist. As stated before, Scenarist needs an "I" frame as the beginning of the cell, and CCE usually produces slight differences of 5-10 frames in setting each cell.
f) Multiplex and replace the original VOBS (from VTS_X_01... to VTS_X_NN) with the new Scenarist multiplexed. DO NOT REPLACE THE IFO FILES, because you need the original one. However, keep the multiplexed one in a different place, because you need some information from them.
g) 'Til now everything is quite simple, and it doesn't take much longer than the previous procedure. Now the final and most boring process: you must edit the film IFO file, and look for the PGC_1 area aunder VTS_PGCITI. In each of the cells it is necessary to replace the information about "Playback time", "entry sector", "Start sector" and "End sector" with the values that appear on the multiplexed Scenarist IFO. This will correct the chapter points. As I said before, this is the most boring part, as usually films have near 30 cell information you must copy and paste. Perhaps Derrow can help in this point including a new tool to sync chapters.
h) Save the corrected film IFO and then remember to GET VTS.
i) That's all. You have a perfect working copy with menus, chapters, extras and whatever you want, and with a quality much higher than the obtained with reMPEG og Tmpg. The quality is so good indeed, that you can reencode also the extras and get a complete backup copy of the original DVD with no noticeable difference in quality.
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Old 19th February 2002, 00:30   #2  |  Link
jarret3
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what do u edit the ifo files with?
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Old 19th February 2002, 05:51   #3  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarret3
what do u edit the ifo files with?
With IfoEdit: you simply double click on the line you want to modify and change the value. When you finish all changes, you save it and that's all. To save some time, I copy the remuxed ifo (copy2clipboard) to an excel file, and copy and paste the required values to the original IFO.
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Old 19th February 2002, 15:32   #4  |  Link
malzahn
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good work,some questions i have:

most double layered DVDs have a additional cell at the layer changing point, so how can you create a cell without having a chapter in scenarist (that would be necessary for creating a identical chapter /cell structure I guess)? Or any other solution for this problem ?

the vob IDs are kept in the vobs , normally vob ID in the vobs change
with the layer change from 1 to 2, the vobs created from scenarist normally use only one vob ID, doesn't this fact cause problems in navigation afterwards?

regards malzahn
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Old 19th February 2002, 18:56   #5  |  Link
jarret3
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Hey Joseph i got 2 questions for you.

#1) how do u set chapter/cell frames in CCE to be sure you get an "I" frame in the beginning of each cell?

#2) I am a bit confused about setting chapter an cell frames in scenarist. First off if CCE output is off by 5-10 frames then do u need to make up for that when setting them in scenarist? Also where/how do u set the cell points in Scenarist? I was reading up alot in the PDF but couldn't find anything

Thanks Alot,
Jarret
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Old 19th February 2002, 22:28   #6  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by malzahn
good work,some questions i have:

the vob IDs are kept in the vobs , normally vob ID in the vobs change
with the layer change from 1 to 2, the vobs created from scenarist normally use only one vob ID, doesn't this fact cause problems in navigation afterwards?

regards malzahn

Most of the films have a single PGC with a collection of cells. The most similar case I have found is when you try to reencode extras with additional scenes and things like that (a single VOB with different Vob-ID's or PGC's). In that case I keep a single VTS but with as many PGC as Vob-ID's required. After setting chapter (cells) I assign them to the corresponding PGC. When you multiplex, you should find them separated in different Vob-Id's.
I hope this can help you.
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Old 19th February 2002, 22:39   #7  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by jarret3
Hey Joseph i got 2 questions for you.

#1) how do u set chapter/cell frames in CCE to be sure you get an "I" frame in the beginning of each cell?

#2) I am a bit confused about setting chapter an cell frames in scenarist. First off if CCE output is off by 5-10 frames then do u need to make up for that when setting them in scenarist? Also where/how do u set the cell points in Scenarist? I was reading up alot in the PDF but couldn't find anything

Thanks Alot,
Jarret
#1) In the main menu screen ("Encode settings") and the second box ("input files") you have a "Settings" Button. When you press it a new window with the filename and the number of frames appear. If you double-click on the file a new menu appears, when you can set the encode range and chapter list. Here I set the corresponding cell beginning frames, but usually I always get a slight deviation (the mentioned 5-10 frames).

#2) In Scenarist you should go to the "Track editor" page. Here you find Time scale, video, audio and subpictures for the selected track. At the botton, there is another area called "Scenes". It has a slider you can move to the desired point (or input the timeframe in the top left box). When you have reach the desired point you can use the button or the menu "New Scene". Scenarist will look for the nearest "I" frame to set it as the chapter point. Repeat the procedure for all the desired chapters, and distribute them in the desired order in the scenario editor under the same or different PGC, as required.
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Old 19th February 2002, 22:40   #8  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by malzahn
good work,some questions i have:

the vob IDs are kept in the vobs , normally vob ID in the vobs change
with the layer change from 1 to 2, the vobs created from scenarist normally use only one vob ID, doesn't this fact cause problems in navigation afterwards?

regards malzahn

Most of the films have a single PGC with a collection of cells. The most similar case I have found is when you try to reencode extras with additional scenes and things like that (a single VOB with different Vob-ID's or PGC's). In that case I keep a single VTS but with as many PGC as Vob-ID's required. After setting chapter (cells) I assign them to the corresponding PGC. When you multiplex, you should find them separated in different Vob-Id's.
I hope this can help you.
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Old 20th February 2002, 02:37   #9  |  Link
malzahn
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thx Joseph 2,

when I have I little more time I'll test it.

I have a link to a nice little program, which could help you to spare a little time, it creates a scenarist script with the chapters from the original film, all what you need is the CCE 2.50.01.00,the doc is only in German,but the program is very easy to handle.

http://134.102.55.6/cgi-bin/download/dtrack.cgi?rc=dvd

regards malzahn
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Old 20th February 2002, 15:07   #10  |  Link
tconnectt
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It works!

I tried your method with a PAL film without all the chapter / scenes stuff and it worked. The audio/video is synch, and I have access to the scenes from the menu.
Is it really necessary to set up the chapters and make the corrections you suggest in the .IFO?

Best regards

tconnect
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Old 20th February 2002, 21:18   #11  |  Link
Joseph2
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Re: It works!

Quote:
Originally posted by tconnectt
I tried your method with a PAL film without all the chapter / scenes stuff and it worked. The audio/video is synch, and I have access to the scenes from the menu.
Is it really necessary to set up the chapters and make the corrections you suggest in the .IFO?

Best regards

tconnect
You must have been lucky, and reencoded a film with almost constant GOP structure. If you don't change chapter addresses, the first scenes from the menus will be correctly addressed. As the film goes on, the frame difference between the original chapter points and the rencoded ones will increase. The final difference will depend on how your reencoded GOP structure matches the original one. If you don't mind keeping the right chapter points then you don't need to fix the cell frames, and you may even avoid Scenarist and better use a simpler multiplexer.

Regards

Joseph2
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Old 22nd February 2002, 19:29   #12  |  Link
DaSilva
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Joseph can you do a more in depth explanation of how do u set chapter/cell frames in CCE?
It's all quite confusing to me.

Maybe Doom9 can make a guide of your method?
Would be nice since everyone agrees CCE gives the best quality.

Thanks again.
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Old 22nd February 2002, 23:54   #13  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaSilva
Joseph can you do a more in depth explanation of how do u set chapter/cell frames in CCE?
I tried to explain it in a previous post, but I'm not sure it's quite clear:
#1) In the main menu screen ("Encode settings") and the second box ("input files") you have a "Settings" Button. When you press it a new window with the filename and the number of frames appear. If you double-click on the file a new menu appears ("File settings"), when you can set the encode range and chapter list. To fix a chapter point, type in the desired frame in the "Frame search" box, and then press the "set" button in the "Chapter list" box. The frame will be added to the chapter list.
There is also some information about this menu in the CCE manual in PDF format included with the program (at least in the 2.50 version I use).

However, I have not succeeded in getting an "I" frame in the exact point set in the list, and there is always a slight difference of 5-10 frames. Perhaps it's related with the rest of GOP settings, where I usually fix:
- A GOP pattern similar to the original VOB
- [ ] restrict auto-I frame insertion
- [X] close all GOP
With this settings I usually get a constant GOP structure. I'm not sure if unchecking "close all GOP" it's possible to get the exact desired "I" frame in the cell/chapter point.
Anyway, a 5-10 frames in setting the chapter point is not really important.

I hope this helps
Best regards
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Old 23rd February 2002, 19:17   #14  |  Link
grog
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allo mate - question - I have worked out my required file size and required bitrate - However when I input the average Bitrate into CCE I find it creates an excessive sized file..


I want an average bitrate of 2468
and a filesixe of 390000000o bytes - problem is at 20% of reencoding I have a file of 2 Gig ...

What is wrong..??

Oh yeah this is a LONG film which is why the bitrate is so low (Dasboot)

Thanks in advance...

GROG
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Old 23rd February 2002, 21:35   #15  |  Link
DaSilva
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Well it's me again sorry.

I'm a very NEWBIE

U say U use Robshot's method to rencode the video stream.
Do you set the chapter/cell frames before u do the 1st pass or the 2nd?

Also from where in ifoedit do you get the original chapter point information?

This is some info of the movie i'm working with together with a copy and paste of a part of the ifo:
It has 19 chapters and the duration is 2h and 17min (Forrest Gump)

[Ch 16] [Pg 16] [Cell 17] : time: 00:07:08.03 / 25 fps [Pos: 01:54:00.23] [Frames: 1593222]
[Ch 17] [Pg 17] [Cell 18] : time: 00:05:39.09 / 25 fps [Pos: 01:59:40.07] [Frames: 1772729]
[Ch 18] [Pg 18] [Cell 19] : time: 00:10:10.18 / 25 fps [Pos: 02:09:51.00] [Frames: 1967504]
[Ch 19] [Pg 19] [Cell 20] : time: 00:06:26.00 / 25 fps [Pos: 02:16:17.00] [Frames: 2171929]

So I'm guessing i have to use the frames from here to set the chapter points? So that's a total of 2171929 frames for the whole movie.
But the problem is that in CCE the movie only has 204422 frames!

So either CCE is reporting it wrong, or i'm doing something wrong (i'm guessing it's the second option )

In each case thanks for helping me to get where i am now!
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Old 24th February 2002, 01:08   #16  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by grog
I want an average bitrate of 2468
and a filesixe of 390000000o bytes - problem is at 20% of reencoding I have a file of 2 Gig ...
GROG
I assume you're following Robshot's method. In the first VBR pass you only want to get the bitrate distribution file (it's something like 2 passes in Nandub DivX), so the size doesn't matter in the first pass. In the second or multipass you always get the exact desired filesize calculated on the advanced tab setting page (at least in my experience).
Best regards
Joseph
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Old 24th February 2002, 01:36   #17  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaSilva
Do you set the chapter/cell frames before u do the 1st pass or the 2nd?
Also from where in ifoedit do you get the original chapter point information?
I see you have the PAL version of the film. Let's take the first chapters of the film:

PGC_1 (program chain): (Programs: 19) (Cells: 20) (uses VOB-IDs: 1)
[Ch 01] [Pg 01] [Cell 01] : time: 00:06:25.16 / 25 fps [Pos: 00:06:25.16] [Frames: 9641]
[Ch 02] [Pg 02] [Cell 02] : time: 00:05:27.01 / 25 fps [Pos: 00:11:52.17] [Frames: 27458]
[Ch 03] [Pg 03] [Cell 03] : time: 00:07:13.14 / 25 fps [Pos: 00:19:06.06] [Frames: 56114]

If you translate the length of each of these 3 chapters (indicated in time) to frames you will get 9641, 8176 and 10839 respectively. So you would need to fix the chapter points in frames
0 (not necessary)
9641
17817 (=9641+8176)
28656 (=17817+10839)
... and so on 'til the end of the total frames of the film.
You can also translate directly the end position of each chapter. Remember that for the total number of frames DVD2AVI files are always a couple of frames lower than the original film.
The frames indicated at the end of each line in the IFO are not real frames (at least in the common sense to compare with CCE). Those values come from these calculations, that I don't understand what's for:
Ch 01: 9641 (=0+9641)
Ch 02: 27458 (=9641+17817)
Ch 03: 56114 (=27458+28656)
You don't need these values in any point of the reencoding process.

Coming back to the CCE encoding process, it's not necessary to fix the chapters in the first pass, only in the final VBR multipass. You can almost change everything from the first pass to the second, because in the first pass you only want to get the bitrate distribution for a defined quality.

Best regards
Joseph2
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Old 24th February 2002, 05:02   #18  |  Link
jdobbs
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Hmmm.... This last bit seems contrary to the CCE documentation. During the first pass you create the VAF file. According to the User's Guide you must recreate the VAF whenever you set a chapter point, set GOP information, change to/from progressive, scan order, or aspect ratio (see the top of page 25 in the v2.5 manual)????

My experience has been that when you change any of these after the VAF was created, your change is ignored (although I have to admit I haven't tried the chapter change).
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Old 24th February 2002, 10:59   #19  |  Link
Joseph2
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdobbs
Hmmm.... This last bit seems contrary to the CCE documentation. During the first pass you create the VAF file. According to the User's Guide you must recreate the VAF whenever you set a chapter point, set GOP information, change to/from progressive, scan order, or aspect ratio (see the top of page 25 in the v2.5 manual)????
Yes, you are completely right, if you are going to do a single VBR second pass. I understood that if you do a multipass, you take the information from each pass for the following one, and in that case it would not be so determinant. But I am not a CCE expert, and I may be wrong.
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Old 24th February 2002, 13:07   #20  |  Link
DaSilva
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Thanks Joseph2 it looks like it's working mow.
I'm @65% of the VBR Multipass operation (doing 5 passes).

So when it's finished i get 3 files:
1)FORREST_GUMP_d2v-vfapi.mpv
2)FORREST_GUMP_d2v-vfapi.vaf
3)2ND_PASS.ecl

Let's say I want to make a DVD-r just containing the main movie, English Dolby AC3 6CH audio track and 3 Subtitle Streams (Dutch, English and French).
I used ifoedit on this movie to strip the menu's and unwanted audio/subtitle streams and used that result as source to the DVD2AVI - VFAPI - CCE process.

So where do I go from here?
I understand you now have to use Scenarist.
Is it possible to maybe write a quick guide from this point to just before burning the DVD-R (lol that's something i know how to, yippie!)
Because like i said i'm a complete video newbie.
But i pick up some things and after that it's just repeating everything like a monkey does

I have been visiting IRC alot to on this project and lot's of people are following your method combined with the Roshot's so congratulations.

And thanks again for going thru all the trouble explaining.
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