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Old 6th July 2006, 23:49   #1  |  Link
Clown shoes
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Closest AVS scripts to Alchemist results

I am wondering if anyone has an opinion currently as to whether there are any avs scripts that allow a standards conversion close to the results produced by Snell & Willcox's Alchemist. I ask this for two reasons;

1. Snell & Willcox are about to release a software based converter called Helios http://www.snellwilcox.com/news_even...s_releases/197 which according to the salesman at Broadcast Live will give results comparable to the Alchemist (obviously not realtime though)

2. We get quite a few standards conversion jobs at work, where time is not an issue. It would be nice to have the confidence to tell a client our software solution was comparable to hiring an Alchemist, but at a much lower cost.


Over the past few years I have used many of the scripts posted on the Doom9 forums by people like Xesdeeni (who I have not seen around for a while) and Scharfis_brain. I am currently using:

for pure video

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MotionProtectedFPS.avsi")
MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
interp=separatefields().eedi2(field=-2)
tdeint(mode=1,full=false,edeint=interp)
assumefps(50.05)
motionprotectedfps(60)
assumefps(60000,1001)
lanczos4resize(width,480)
converttoyuy2()
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()


for hybrid content

MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
interp=separatefields().eedi2(field=-2)
tdeint(mode=1,full=false,edeint=interp)
converttoyuy2()
convertfps(60000,1001)
lanczos4resize(width,480)
converttoyuy2()
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()



I would be grateful for anyones input on this matter, great or small.

Thanks in advance

ClownShoes

Last edited by Clown shoes; 7th July 2006 at 00:12.
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Old 7th July 2006, 01:58   #2  |  Link
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(sorry didn't mean to double post, but this second post was in response to a comment made by Pookie. For some reason he deleted it though!)





The software hasn't actually been released yet. And as I understand it, it will be in the region of £3,000.00

My query is really as to whether existing filters are able to emulate or get close to the output of the Alchemist hardware converter. If Snell & Willcox's claims are to be believed, they have managed it with Hellios.

My knowledge of AVIsynth and it's scripting is not in the same league as many of the videophiles here and I am also hard pushed to afford the hiring of an Alchemist on a regular basis for testing and comparisons. So I guess I'm hoping that any one with any standards converting experience can give thier opinions. I am currently encoding with an adaption of the first script I posted, but using mvbob:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob~.avs")
import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MotionProtectedFPS.avsi")
MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
mvbob()
assumefps(50.05)
motionprotectedfps(60)
assumefps(60000,1001)
converttoyuy2()
lanczos4resize(width,480)
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()



I'm pleasantly suprised to be getting 3fps with this script and am curious to see what it looks like.

Last edited by Clown shoes; 7th July 2006 at 02:00.
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Old 7th July 2006, 03:41   #3  |  Link
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scharfis prefers mvfps & mvfps2, and of course fizick because he wrote it , because they can be tweaked to offer higher quality with less artifacts. Personally, my experience has been with motionprotected (base and personally modified versions - it makes fast excellent motion noise masks) and it's always given me good, dependable quality in movies. It animation, Twixtor for AE was better (but it ran out and AE is torture anyway) but I couldn't really see it in normal movies.

One thing you might want to think about is that motion compensation works significantly better with a denoised source. That's a strong argument in favor of mvfps2, or modding motionprotectedfps for two clips. (Attached.) Alternately you can just denoise, compensate, and then add your own grain back in.

Code:
function MotionProtectedFPS(
 \ clip input, float FPS, clip "denoised", 
 \ int "mode", int "protection",
 \ int "iterate", int "reset", int "initialise")
{
denoised   = default(denoised, input)
mode       = default(mode, warpfast)
protection = default(protection, 80)
iterate    = default(iterate, 2)
reset      = default(reset, 50)
initialise = default(initialise, 6)

originalFPS = input.framerate()
input

mp    = denoised.FindMotion(iterate = iterate, reset = reset,
 \       initialise = initialise)
p     = MotionFPS(FPS,mode,Motion = mp)
maskp = mp.SumStretchFPSMask(FPS, protection)

mn    = denoised.FindMotion(iterate = iterate, reset = reset,
 \       initialise = initialise, from = next)
n     = MotionFPS(FPS,mode,Motion = mn, source = next)
maskn = mn.SumStretchFPSMask(FPS, protection, source = next)

maskp
assumeFPS(originalFPS)
CombineFPS(FPS, maskp, maskn.Invert())
bilinearresize(width*8, height*8)
crop(0, 0, input.width(), input.height())
fity2uv()

mt_merge(p, n, last, chroma="process")
}
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Last edited by foxyshadis; 9th July 2006 at 00:49.
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Old 7th July 2006, 03:54   #4  |  Link
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Sorry about deleting my post. I read it back and I realized it didn't add any constructive advice to the thread. Not that this one does, either.

Last edited by Pookie; 7th July 2006 at 03:56.
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Old 7th July 2006, 05:26   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown shoes
My query is really as to whether existing filters are able to emulate or get close to the output of the Alchemist hardware converter. If Snell & Willcox's claims are to be believed, they have managed it with Hellios.
Alchemist, as well as Folsom's top of the line standards converter, indeed use motion synthesis along with several quality checks for the best results. Occaisonally they make mistakes (usually with film sources that aren't telecined properly), but most of the time the results look 99% close as if the material was shot in the other standard.

Luckily, MVTools comes pretty close. If the material you're converting is interlaced (ie. actually does have 50 or 60 different images per second) and doesn't contain any surprises, MVTools works damn near perfectly. Best of all, it's free :-)

Quote:
I am currently encoding with an adaption of the first script I posted, but using mvbob:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob~.avs")
import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MotionProtectedFPS.avsi")
MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
mvbob()
assumefps(50.05)
motionprotectedfps(60)
assumefps(60000,1001)
converttoyuy2()
lanczos4resize(width,480)
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()


I'm pleasantly suprised to be getting 3fps with this script and am curious to see what it looks like.
Not sure why you're doing three different FPS conversions, but if you're using mvbob then mvconv is in the same package and it converts 50<-->59.9401 (60000/1001) like so:

Code:
mvbob
mvconv # <-- automatically figures out which way you want to go
#...resize to 480 lines, re-weave...
If mvconv isn't in whatever package you're using, I used to do it manually this way:

Code:
function MOCOMP_50_to_5994(clip c)
{
	backward_vec = c.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
	# we use explicit idx for more fast processing
	forward_vec = c.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
	cropped = c.crop(4,4,-4,-4)	# by half of block size 8
	backward_vec2 = cropped.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=2)
	forward_vec2 = cropped.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=2)
	c.MVFlowFps2(backward_vec,forward_vec,backward_vec2,forward_vec2,num=60000,den=1001,idx=1,idx2=2) # the 60000 / 1001 = 59.9401
}
The problem with mvbob is speed, obviously -- it goes overboard going for the best possible bob (and succeeds). For much faster processing, this is acceptable as long as you don't have single-pixel horizontal lines (like fine detail in the titles) in the source:

Code:
TDeint(order=1,mode=1,type=0,sharp=false,AP=50,APtype=0)
Let us know what you come up with. Standards conversion has been a hobby of mine for more than half a decade, as I've had to take very goofy source material (66p, 70p, and 72p computer sources) and convert it to NTSC without it looking like total ass... after using a gazillion products like ReTimer, Twixtor, MotionPerfect with less than optimal workflows, MVTools finally offers me a great workflow at about 99% of the quality. By 99%, I mean about 50 frames out of an hour's worth of footage might need to be touched up, which is par for the course for any converter, really.
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Old 7th July 2006, 06:50   #6  |  Link
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Whomever does that Doom9 firefox plugin should add this page to the default bookmarks. Good info throughout.

Thanks guys.
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Old 7th July 2006, 15:56   #7  |  Link
Clown shoes
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Ok now we're cooking

I am currently testing MVBob with MVConv. That is happily encoding away. I am however having a problem finding a current script for MVFps or MVFps2 as mentioned by Foxyshadis though!

I can find much mention of it when I use the search function and have ended up spending most of the day reading pages of posts but to ne avail. I can find no link or scripting except for a post by Scharfis in february of 2005 http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...027#post615027 but that script needed an earlier version of MVTools which I cannot find. I did try changing the version in the script but that does not work. A small pointer in the right direction would be appreciated right now as I am quite sure that this a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees.

@ Trixter

I have also cut out the unnecesary FPS conversions. I was under the impression (having borrowed this script from another recent SC post) that MotionProtectedFPS was unable to accept fractional framerates. This is clearly not the case.

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob\mvbob.avs")
import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MotionProtectedFPS.avsi")
MPEG2Source("E:\SC tests\AmcQ.d2v")
mvbob()
motionprotectedfps(59.94)
lanczos4resize(width,480)
converttoyuy2()
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()

Last edited by Clown shoes; 7th July 2006 at 16:28.
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Old 7th July 2006, 18:52   #8  |  Link
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Maybe foxyshadis meant MVFlowFPS and MVFlowFPS2 which are a part of MVTools?
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Old 7th July 2006, 19:08   #9  |  Link
Clown shoes
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I thought that might be the case. But there was a function called MVFps used for the same purpose so it has me a little confused. Also that link in my previous post does link to some scripting by Scharfi called MVFps just over a year ago.

Edit; OK scratch that. I think your right Boulder. I will try it now

Edit2; Hmmm, having problems using MVFlowFPS2. I am clearly calling it in the wrong way. I'm afraid my scripting knowledge is very limited. I have tried to read through the MVTools documentation but it is a little beyond me. I presume this is an incorrect way to call it:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob\mvbob.avs")
MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
mvbob()
MVFlowFps2(59.94)
converttoyuy2()
lanczos4resize(width,480)
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()


I would be greatful is someone could briefly explain how to use this.

Last edited by Clown shoes; 7th July 2006 at 20:43.
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Old 7th July 2006, 20:58   #10  |  Link
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I've used MVFlowFPS2 like this:
Code:
vvbw=MVAnalyse(truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=true,idx=3,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvfw=MVAnalyse(truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=false,idx=3,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvbw2=MVAnalyse(last.Crop(4,4,-4,-4,true),truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=true,idx=4,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvfw2=MVAnalyse(last.Crop(4,4,-4,-4,true),truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=false,idx=4,chroma=true,sharp=1)
MVFlowFPS2(last,vvbw,vvfw,vvbw2,vvfw2,idx=3,idx2=4,num=100,den=1)
That would convert the framerate to 100fps, so you probably need num=60 in MVFlowFPS2 and AssumeFPS(59.94) afterwards.
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Last edited by Boulder; 7th July 2006 at 21:02.
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Old 7th July 2006, 22:03   #11  |  Link
Clown shoes
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Thanks Boulder, I've got it working now. This is how my script currently reads:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob\mvbob.avs")
MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v")
mvbob()
loadplugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvtools.dll")
vvbw=MVAnalyse(truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=true,idx=3,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvfw=MVAnalyse(truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=false,idx=3,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvbw2=MVAnalyse(last.Crop(4,4,-4,-4,true),truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=true,idx=4,chroma=true,sharp=1)
vvfw2=MVAnalyse(last.Crop(4,4,-4,-4,true),truemotion=true,blksize=8,delta=1,pel=2,isb=false,idx=4,chroma=true,sharp=1)
MVFlowFPS2(last,vvbw,vvfw,vvbw2,vvfw2,idx=3,idx2=4,num=60,den=1)
assumefps(59.94)
converttoyuy2()
lanczos4resize(width,480)
assumetff().separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave()


I'm getting approximately 1.5fps right now using CCE 2.70 on a 3ghz xeon with 2gb of ram. This seems quite reasonable to me.
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Old 8th July 2006, 00:38   #12  |  Link
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The Motion thread, or the one I posted above has support for compensating off a different source than the one analysed.

Sorry about mistaking mvfps and mvflowfps ^^;

You can also use num=5994,den=1000 (or more precisely, num=6000,den=1001) to eliminate any minor desync assumefps would cause.
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Old 8th July 2006, 01:18   #13  |  Link
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I used a custom function suggested by scharfis_brain in some extremely shaky digicam clips. It gave me really good results.
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Old 8th July 2006, 01:54   #14  |  Link
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Ok I've just encoded some footage using the last script I posted, but I am getting some weird motion effects on some frames during fast motion sections.

Any idea what's causing this? and more importantly, is there a workaround for it?
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Last edited by Clown shoes; 8th July 2006 at 02:32.
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Old 8th July 2006, 14:49   #15  |  Link
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That looks like interlacing, are you sure you're reinterlacing correctly? By the way, this is what I'm using:

Code:
Source loading, including audio
prefiltering up to (and including) final resizing
input=last

vectors=depanestimate(input)
input_1_of_x = input
input_2_of_x = input.depan(vectors,offset=1/x-1,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_3_of_x = input.depan(vectors,offset=2/x-1,mirror=15,blur=35)
...
...
input_x-1_of_x = input.depan(vectors,offset=x-2/x-1,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_x_of_x = input.depan(vectors,offset=x-1/x-1,mirror=15,blur=35)
interleave(input_1_of_x,input_2_of_x,......,input_x-1_of_x,input_x_of_x)
AssumeFPS(whatever,true)
ChangeFPS(whatever)

sharpen (if necessary)
addgrain (if necessary)
add borders (if necessary)
levels (if necessary)
x is the number of steps and should be twice the minimum common multiple of the source and destination FPS divided by the source fps. AssumeFPS should be set to the nearest multiple of 23.976 of the extrapolated fps to make the job easier for ChangeFPS. You'll then have to resample the audio by just a tiny bit, I recommend to use SRCDrop v0.5 for that, as SSRC will most likely not work in such a case.

For example, if the source is 30fps and the destination is 24fps, then:
- x = [2 x MCM(24,30)] / 30 = 2 x 120 / 30 = 240 / 30 = 8

- Since the extrapolation leaves the video at a little more than 240fps due to rounding errors when calculating the fractions, you have to use AssumeFPS(239.76,true) in this case.
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Last edited by Chainmax; 8th July 2006 at 14:57.
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Old 8th July 2006, 15:58   #16  |  Link
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Sorry Chainmax, I didn't mean the interlacing. Im going from 25i to 29.97i so you should be able to see interlacing on a still. What I'm refering to is the warping in the high motion areas. I have also encoded the same clip using mvbob and motionprotectedfps. It is also having some issues with that frame but not nearly as bad. When played back it is not noticable but I am trying to work out what the cause is.

Here is the same frame from the original source and then the motionprotectedfps frame.
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Old 8th July 2006, 16:36   #17  |  Link
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To make a long story short: there's very little you can do. Currently, at least.

a) motion estimation & compensation/interpolation will *always* make errors

b) for compansation (target: denoising), the faithful scripter has *tons of possibilities* to check if a given compensation is "good" and can be used, or if it is bad and should not be used / replaced by a fallback solution.

c) for interpolation (target: rate changing), the faithful scripter can do *nothing*, because
c1) the plugins hardly offer any grips to hook in
c2) there's no reference frame one could compare the compensation with.

So, for the case of interpolation, you are fully at the mercy of the plugin coders. From the scripting side there is nothing that could be done, because the crucial points are out of reach.

Sidenote: if you need this stuff "at work", then IMHO the investment into a professional solution would be advisable, anyway.
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Old 8th July 2006, 16:38   #18  |  Link
Clown shoes
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Excuse my ignorance Chainmax but some of this scripting is beyond me. I must confess that with the mvflowfps2 script that Boulder posted, I have just dropped it straight into my script without a true understanding of the parameters. I have spent some time going through the documentation, but right now it is a little like learning a new language! This could well be the reason for my warped frames in the previous script.

I am going to post the sample I have been working with. If anyone gets a chance to take a look I would be greatful.

My aim is still the same; to find a software solution for 25i to 29.97i or vice versa standards conversions, that can be used as an alternative to the hardware Alchemist route, when time is not an issue

Edit;


Sorry Didee, I didn't notice you had just posted. In response; The reason for my quest was the discovery of the imminent release of Snell & Willcox's software encoder, that they claim is an equal to thier Alchemist hardware converter but without the real time returns. That made me wonder whether the current possible permutations of AVISynth filters might be put to the same use.

The results I have received so far have been amazing! Combinations of MVbob with both MVflowfps2 and motionprotectedfps have given results that when transfered back to DVD or a tape format look almost identical to the original (at least to the untrained eye) and at acceptable speeds.

I appreciate what you are saying with regard to the existing restrictions and limitations, but surely they will always be there. I am just trying to find out what the most effective current solutions are and bring them all together. That fact that thier are multiple video standards and probably always will be, means that standards conversion is something that will always be of interest to people.

With regard to using proffesional standards conversion hardware for work, the problem is that is has always been prohibitively expensive. I work for a small post production company, so spending in excess of £100,000.00 is just not an option, hiring is also overly expensive. Currently the only real software options available are Procoder 2, Motion Perfect and NLE plugins such as Twixtor and Magic Bullet. NONE of these is even a patch on what can be done with AVISynth filters. Therefore the most sensible thing, for me at least, is to find an effective solution within this community.

So in conclusion, I must thank all you coders and scripters because the hard work you are doing really is appreciated.

Last edited by Clown shoes; 8th July 2006 at 17:20.
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Old 8th July 2006, 16:48   #19  |  Link
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What I posted is almost directly from the MVTools' documentation
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Old 8th July 2006, 18:04   #20  |  Link
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The complete script for 25i to 29.97i should be something like this:

Code:
Import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob\mvbob.avs")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DePan.dll")



input=MPEG2Source("I:\Gucci NTSC M2Vs\Alexander McQueen Women.d2v").MVBob()

vectors=depanestimate(input)
input_1_of_12 = input
input_2_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=1/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_3_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=2/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_4_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=3/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_5_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=4/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_6_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=5/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_7_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=6/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_8_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=7/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_9_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=8/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_10_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=9/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_11_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=10/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
input_12_of_12 = input.depan(vectors,offset=11/11,mirror=15,blur=35)
interleave(input_1_of_12,input_2_of_12,input_3_of_12,input_4_of_12,input_5_of_12,input_6_of_12,input_7_of_12,input_8_of_12,input_9_of_12,input_10_of_12,input_11_of_12,input_12_of_12)

AssumeFPS(599.4,true)
ChangeFPS(59.94)

ConvertToYUY2()
Lanczos4Resize(width,480)
Assumetff().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
Remember to resample the audio (as it will be downsampled by a few Hz) with SRCDrop after this.
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Read Decomb's readmes and tutorials, the IVTC tutorial and the capture guide in order to learn about combing and how to deal with it.
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