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Old 14th February 2002, 11:31   #1  |  Link
ChristianHJW
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New A/V Formats Q&A

Q: I get confused with the two expressions 'Ogg' and 'Vorbis' all the time ! What are their meanings and why do they get mixed up all the time ?

A: If you want to playback a video or an audio stream you have to put them into a container to be able to transport them without getting corrupted or loosing data, like putting your money in your wallet.
'Ogg' is the general container format that the guys from Xiphophorus ( Monty and his team ) were developing for their new audio and video codecs, being 'Vorbis' and 'Tarkin'. But the Ogg container can hold more than only those, its a very general container format, so it can hold other video and audio streams also like DivX, XviD or MP3, even subtitles are possible, making it a potential replacement for the good old AVI container. As Vorbis was designed also for music, and this is what it is most commonly used right now, you will find that most of the encoding tools existing will always place a Vorbis audio stream into an Ogg container ... resulting in an Ogg Vorbis file !

Q : What is the hassle about this other new format, being called TMF, MCS or MCF ? When are first implementations to be expected ?

A: MCF, the Multimedia Container Format, was TMF ( The Movie Format ) in the beginning. It was designed by a talented coder from Finland called Tronic, a lot of input came from Avery Lee, the creator of Virtualdub. The basic idea behind it was to replace AVI with a new format with a more modern structure, supplying the user with a lot more features and possibilities. The detailled specs are to be found here : http://solidhardware.com/sn/?tmf . We expect the first alpha version of a muxing tool coded in C to be released end of february.
Ogg and MCF are competing in one way or the other. As the Ogg format can be used for streaming and is very flexible, MCF is promising higher compatibility because of the very tight specs.

Q: How can i split an Ogg container movie in 2 parts for a nice 2 CD rip ? I cant open the Ogg in Nandub RC2 ...

A: There is no splitting tool available for the Ogg container format, so its hard to make 2 CD files for now. Doom9 came up with a good ( interim ) solution :
1. Get nandub RC2, exchange all dll's with ogg or vorbis in the name by latest versions coming with the actual Vorbis SDK ( www.xiph.org ). Now you can handle RC3 Ogg Vorbis in nandub, but the result will be an AVI !
2. Create such an AVI in Nandub, containing your complete video and Ogg Vorbis audio stream ( 1400 MB ). Use the 'save segmented AVI' function with segment size 704 MB to find out where about in the movie you will have to cut to get two equally sized parts. Play the 1st part ( named movie.01 ) in any player and note the total playing time it has. Now jump to the closest keyframe to this time point in nandub and use the 'Save AVI function' 2 times to create 2 AVIs, one being your 1st and other being your 2nd part ( CD ). If you dont know how to cut movies in Vdub/Nandub, see according Doom9 Guide. Note that this is only an interims solution, you have AVIs now with bad Vorbis support, seeking in the movie is impossible ! Next step is important !!
3. Now, having 2 AVIs each about 700 MB in size, being 1st and 2nd part, use nandub again to demux the video ( DivX/XviD/whatever ) and the Vorbis audio streams from these AVIs again. You should have 2 Ogg Vorbis audio ( named as WAV, so rename them to .ogg ) and 2 AVI video streams now.
4. Now you can use Tobias muxing filter as you are used to finally create 2 Ogg files, being CD1 and CD2 ...
5. As an alternaitve to 3. and 4. you may try to use philippas method of transmuxing the two AVIs to Oggs directly ( see Graph below ). This method may not work on every OS, mainly 98 and ME users reported about problems.
We admit this is big hassle, but the only alternative to this is to
- cut the VOBs into several parts ( by time .. no good solution )
- cut the WAV file ( after AC3 was decoded ) into 2 parts in Cooledit or similar
- encode both VOBs as separate and both WAVs as separate
- mux the 1st and 2nd part of your movie
This 2nd method will never give you two equally sized and similar quality parts ... the 1st CD may turn out as 710 MB and the 2nd as 685 MB f.e. , depending on content .
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Old 14th February 2002, 15:17   #2  |  Link
ChristianHJW
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Q: I have a lot of old AVIs ? Should i convert them to Ogg now ?

A: This is not recommended for the time being. Reasons are :
1. If these AVIs play fine and without seeking probs, you won't win anything when converting them to Ogg format. AVI is a very established format and will be supported from any player even in the far future for absolutely certain.
2. There is still a ( very small ) questionmark behind the compatibility of the Ogg format for the future, bear in mind the implementation is pretty new. Tobias stated recently that backwards compatibility is one of his major priorities and that he will make sure all his filters will be able to play old movies. However, as the Ogg container is a pretty open format there may be problems if more than one coder start to implement the Ogg format and interprete things differently.
3. Tobias is showing an example graph on his hompepage how to convert an AVI with MP3 sound into an Ogg movie with Vorbis sound. Please note that the resulting quality of the Vorbis audio can not be better than the source ( MP3 ), but there is a high risk that a loss of quality will result from the de/encoding process, so its not recommended for now also.
4. It was confirmed that it is possible to transmux AVIs with VBR MP3 now to Oggs, using philippas method ( see graph below ). The only real advantage you get from doing this now is improved seeking in the movie, but you can do it without affecting quality if you like.
Conclusion : Leave your AVIs as they are for the time being ! Especially if they contain VBR MP3 sound there is a higher risk to screw things when demuxing the audio and video and you dont win anything of importance for now. Things may change once that additional new features will be available for the new format(s), like enhanced subtitles support ( unicode, etc. ) or the possibility to have multi language audio in one Vorbis stream with much smaller bitrate thanks to channel coupling. Of course, situation is completely different if you have the original AC3 still lying on your HDD somewhere !


Q: What is the best way to create the Ogg Vorbis audio streams from my AC3 ?

A: Use HeadAC3he or BeSweet & OggMachine .
It will allow you to transcode AC3 directly to Vorbis, even in multichannel ( 5.1 channel surround ).
Also, Tobias now has multichannel playback supported in the latest OggDS, same goes for Peter's in_vorbis plugin for winamp.
* BeSweet can also transcode WAV/MPx into Vorbis.



Q: I know the official extension of the Ogg format is .ogg , i read this at http://www.xiph.org . Now i hear there is a new extension being .ogm and i cant find anything about it there. What is the background of this new extension ?

A: Some users reported that they dont like to have the same software handling all Ogg content, instead they would prefer to have different applications handling audio ( like Winamp ) and movies ( like PowerDivX ). So we decided in a chat of important webmasters and experienced users to define a new extension called .ogm ( Ogg Media ) to use for movies. Tobias has implemented .ogm suppport in the latest version of his DirectShowFilters, being 0.9.9.0 . It is recommended to use this extension for all movies now to be able to differentiate from audio tracks. Existing .ogg movies can simply be renamed and will play fine.

Last edited by MaTTeR; 13th April 2002 at 17:24.
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Old 16th February 2002, 11:37   #3  |  Link
philippas
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One suggestion to above method. When you have the avi file you don't have to demultiplex the audio streams from the avi just do:
avi-->avi spliter-->ogg multiplexer directly.
It saves you one step.
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Old 16th February 2002, 14:39   #4  |  Link
ChristianHJW
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Thanks for the suggestions philippas .... but dont you need the MediaXW 0.5 DirectShowfilter to be able to play back AVIs with a Vorbis stream ? Does this filter cause you any trouble on your OS, like you cant delete Ogg files sometimes, etc. ? Demuxing in nandub should be the safer way, because there is no need for the MediaXW DSF !
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Old 16th February 2002, 14:56   #5  |  Link
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I have installed the oggDs filters and the file plays ok in windows media player and in PowerDivx. Yes i got some problems with ogg files, have a look this thread.
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Old 18th February 2002, 11:51   #6  |  Link
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I tested philippas method and can confirm its working fine, at least on Win2k, DirectX 8. There is no need to have MediaXW 0.0.5 installed for this, the AVI splitter will work in any case.
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Old 18th February 2002, 11:57   #7  |  Link
Nic
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You it would be very easy to make a little GUI app that would do phillapas method without using Graphedit....
....Would that be of any use???

-Nic

ps
Should a link to Tobias' site be in this Q&A too???
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Old 18th February 2002, 14:06   #8  |  Link
ChristianHJW
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nic it would be very easy to make a little GUI app that would do phillapas method without using Graphedit.....Would that be of any use???
Nic please talk to Blacksun first because i know he had started to work on such a solution already ... to avoid any form of double work
Quote:
Should a link to Tobias' site be in this Q&A too???
Read here my friend ... right under the Q&A : http://rilanparty.com/vbb/showthread...threadid=16974
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Old 18th February 2002, 19:43   #9  |  Link
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@Nic That would be great !
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Old 23rd February 2002, 04:56   #10  |  Link
FrEEwilL
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ogg splitting step 2

as for my experience, "save as avi function" should be performed with before-muxed avi and vorbis stream, not after-muxed avi (1400MB).
if it is applied to muxed avi/vorbis, entire audio will be included in 1st part and 2nd part has no audio. is it right or only me ?
in above guide, this point is missing and not explicit, so it can make confusion for those who do a first try (like i did.:P)

my config: Win2k sp2, DX8.1, nandub rc2 official w/ ogg rc3 dll, tobias DSF 0.984
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Old 26th February 2002, 17:28   #11  |  Link
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@FrEEwilL
I don't get your point. Please read again the above posts and then if you have a problem post again.

Here is a link for the vorbis sdk: http://www.vorbis.com/files/rc3/wind...sdk-1.0rc3.zip

I don't think that there is a problem to post the direct link for the sdk, because alot of sites link directly to the above file. If it isn't so please delete this post.

Last edited by philippas; 26th February 2002 at 17:35.
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Old 26th February 2002, 18:55   #12  |  Link
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@FrEEwilL
Now i get your point. I tried to cut with nandub a 2cd Rip with vorbis audio and when i checked the first cd that i saved, all the audio was on the first part and the second part didn't had any audio.
So the only use of using nandub is to see where exactly you have to cut the audio. The actual cutting will be done with the ogg commandline utils.
Thus when you do "save avi" in nandub you don't include the audio.
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Old 1st March 2002, 03:51   #13  |  Link
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Here is a little faster and precise method for creating 2cd rip's with vorbis audio.

After encoding the video to Xvid, divx3 or divx4 and the audio to vorbis use nandub to multiplex the avi and the ogg file (you must replace the old dllís with the new dllís from the vorbis rc3 sdk, so that Nandub will work). Then open the new avi file with Nandub and do Edit> goto last keyframe, and enter the size that you want to split your cd's (a good value is 704mb for a 700mb).
After you jump to the cutting point note down the time that nandub gives you and save the parts without including the audio.

Now you've got a precise number to split your audio ogg file. Download the vorbis sdk and get the Vcut tool.
Before you use Vcut you must convert the time that nandub gave you into frames (for a 48khz output you have 1sec=48000 frames).
EDIT: Here is a formula that converts the time into the number of audio frames: 48(3600000*h + 60000*min +1000*sec +msec)
If you got downsampled the audio to 44.1khz or 32khz just replace the 48 to 44.1 or 32 respectively.
After that, in the commandline or from a batch file, type: C:\vcut C:\audio.ogg c:\part1.ogg c:\part2.ogg cuttPoint (change the paths accordingly to your case)

When the cutting is finished, you end up with 2 ogg and two audioless avi files. Now as described above and in Doom9's guides you can use GraphEdit to multiplex the above files.

Feel free for any suggestions/corrections

Last edited by philippas; 1st March 2002 at 09:01.
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Old 1st March 2002, 07:51   #14  |  Link
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that's exactly what i did today, and i can vouch that it works perfectly and is quite fast as well
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Old 5th March 2002, 01:24   #15  |  Link
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ok a more simple formula for the conversion.
For PAL sample rate 48khz=> 48*40*frames = number of audio framesfor different sample rates just change 48 to 44.1,32 e.t.c

For NTSC sample rate 48khz=> (48000/23.976)*frames = number of audio frames
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Old 7th March 2002, 11:26   #16  |  Link
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Splitting Ogg files

I will release very soon a small tool to cut Ogg files. Please be patient for some more days.

Best regards,
Tobias

P.S. I've released a new version of the filters on http://tobias.everwicked.com . Consult the change log to know which bug fixes / new features are in this version.

Last edited by TobiasWaldvogel; 7th March 2002 at 12:56.
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Old 7th March 2002, 12:50   #17  |  Link
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Ok thanks for your excellent work
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Old 25th March 2002, 17:40   #18  |  Link
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Using Wave Out as the audio device when playing OGM files is known to distory audio and cause players to crash. You should make sure that your player is set to Direct Sound.
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Need AC3 & SPDIF setup info?
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Old 18th April 2002, 11:38   #19  |  Link
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Tobias, perhaps I'm saying a stupidity, but what do you think about adding RIFF/CDXA parsing capability to the OGG DS filter? This way you could directly read an OGG file burned as M2F2, i.e. the same as MCF-CD. This would give 100 MB extra capacity and a reason for the community to start using OGG instead of AVI

I can add any required stuff to my small tool (mcfcdmaker) to properly support OGG, if needed.
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Old 18th April 2002, 14:46   #20  |  Link
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Probably I will support this in future but first of all I have to finish the 6-channel and chapter stuff. Unfortunately I didn't had much time the last 3 weeks because I had to prepare a lot of course but I hope I will finish that soon.

Best regards,
Tobias
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