XviD presets - preliminary thoughts and suggestions

[Caroliano]

It's a good iniciative. I would add also an checkbox for "ensure compatibility with Standalones".

I know that it is in profiles dropdown, but it is with an "strange" name and isn't visible at all. As this tread is to help newbies with Xvid setings, I think that this can help too.

[CruNcher]

"ensure compatibility with Standalones"

that wont work some devices support b-vops some do not SP (first generation SOC's) and ASP (second generation SOC's) how do you wan't to manage that ? and then theres the problem of packed bitstream better is to leave it allways off for any Standalone and Qpel and custom matrices another thing you can't generalize not if you don't wan't to go into compromises on Quality for second generation Chips like the MT1389 series.

[Caroliano]

Then "ensure compatibility with Divx Certified Standalones".

[raeltheimperialaerosolkid]

Originally Posted by Caroliano

Then "ensure compatibility with Divx Certified Standalones".

This wouldn't be so difficult in terms of features...
The only ones that REALLY create problems are Qpel, Packed bitstream and GMC.
In terms of settings, things could be more compllicated... i.e. SAP have problems with higher resolutions (over 800pixels) and very high bitrate (over 5-6Mbps).
Anyway this could be a way to go. The SAP users are becoming a very big legion...

[Teegedeck]

Again, what do you think the profile dropdown-menu is there for? Right. Hardware-considerations will have no place in presets, their place is the profiles. If the hardware profiles work as they should, they will mercilessly deactivate any feature that isn't profile-compliant. Be it part of the 'preset' or not.

By the way, in course of the weekend I tested with two chapters from LOTR3 (one high-action, one mixed) and a chapter from The Mummy (mixed), producing about 70 clips. Seems to work out like expected. The transition points (forced through capped quantizers) from extreme compression --> high compression --> (V)HQ compression seem quite well-balanced already. Not too narrow space in between the points and the points at quite the right...point. Only that I meditate about giving the recommendations on what preset to use based upon compressibility instead of original VOB-size. Would have the drawback that users who have no clue how to do a compressibility test manually would be lost. Humm.

Also I realized that when XviD hits the capped upper quantizer of a profile in order to prevent quality from going bad (that's wanted behaviour because the presets are quality-presets) the b-frames are scaled surprisingly mildly. (Like, when p-frames are capped at 6, b-frames are scaled to 8. Shouldn't they scale 1.62 x 6 =~10?). I don't know why. (Curve compression?) Maybe I'll try capping b-frames at p-frame quant + 1.

[Caroliano]

Again, what do you think the profile dropdown-menu is there for? Right. Hardware-considerations will have no place in presets, their place is the profiles. If the hardware profiles work as they should, they will mercilessly deactivate any feature that isn't profile-compliant. Be it part of the 'preset' or not.

I think that the profile drop-down is too hiden, and the divx profiles could be moved to somewere close to the presets, not to be part of the presets. Simple that.

[Teegedeck]

Too hidden? Well, it's at the very top of the main window; couldn't be less hidden than that IMHO.

[Caroliano]

It is in an rarely used/explained drop down menu, without any indication that going there you can have a Xvid encode compatible with your divx certified DVD. I don't think that it is newbie friendly, IMHO.

[foxyshadis]

You could call it "Hardware Profile".

[Teegedeck]

Anyway, there were far more radical proposals for meaningful changes to the GUI (many of them from yours truely ) but the problem with them is that no-one really cares to invest the time and re-create the XviD GUI. At the moment I, too, would have exciting and wonderful suggestions on how to improve the GUI even more -- but I think you already guessed it: If you want to write a new XviD GUI, please do!

Baseline is, there's not much sense in voicing such wishes in this thread, I'm afraid!

Edit: If you want I can append your posts here to the old thread mentioned above and thus revive it.

[Teegedeck]

Currently thinking whether for the sake of coherence the 'fast' 3-CD preset should be made a bit faster by deactivating VHQ for b-frames and whether there should be an 'HQ' 2-CD preset that uses EQM HR instead of LR (would using VHQ=4 instead of VHQ=1 plus the use of B-VHQ make up for the growth in filesize so that it would be worthwhile?). On the other hand, it already is a _lot_ of presets IMHO and one doesn't really need such high-quality settings in the middle-of-the-road area (again IMHO). Ahhhrg... I see some more dozen test encodings coming up...

I'd also like to add a max. quantizer restriction to the 1-CD presets - it's called a 'quality' preset after all, not a 'rotten' preset. If it doesn't fit on 1 CD with the '1 CD preset' then you'll have to reduce the resolution, simple 's that...

Edit: And the quantizer restrictions seem to need some tightening in general.

Edit: I'm pretty sure now that after coming to terms with the things above, I'm gonna post a new thread and ask our forum members to help testing some basic but quite specific points.

[Teegedeck]

Currently thinking whether for the sake of coherence the 'fast' 3-CD preset should be made a bit faster by deactivating VHQ for b-frames and whether there should be an 'HQ' 2-CD preset that uses EQM HR instead of LR (would using VHQ=4 instead of VHQ=1 plus the use of B-VHQ make up for the growth in filesize so that it would be worthwhile?).

At least the latter one can be answered with a 'yes'. EQM v3HR with 'HQ' settings produces almost exactly the same filesizes at same quantizer as v3LR with 'fast' settings. So I think there will be two presets for 'strong compression' after all.

On the other hand the 'insane' preset with EQM v3UHR is not worthwhile as it is now. I've tested on a noisy source and while it expectedly occupies roughly the same compressibility range as the medium compression presets with SixOfNine, there's no notable improvement in perceived quality. It seems more sensible to go from SixOfNine straight to using EHR without b-frames for the 'insane' preset. EHR at quant=4 (without b-frames ) yielded about the same filesize as the medium presets (with SixOfNine) at quant=2 and preserved noticeably more detail of that wretched source. Of course we're talking about compressiblity ranges that no-one really uses, here - i.e. 60% of the original DVD's size and more.

Speeding up the 'fast medium' preset seems OK, but I'm still a bit hesitant.

[Sharktooth]

UHR was tuned down to rise the compression.
The original UHR (rev 1) had 8s in place of 10s and was showing more detailed noise than 6of9 at high bitrates.
It was tested by someone but cant find that thread right now.

[Teegedeck]

As my first post doesn't reflect the changes made anymore (I kinda made a mess when I accidentally 'lost' the 'fast' setting at strong compression and replaced it with the 'medium' one on the way; and also I changed the 'normal' setting in medium compression...), here's a summary of where these presets stand now:

These presets are meant for two-pass. Of course you can also use the presets for constant-quantizer encoding but it makes little sense. The quantizer restrictions won't work then, so that quality cannot be guaranteed.

We got four categories of speed in the presets and four categories of quality/compression - though not all of them are paired. That is because we don't need 4x4=16 presets; differences would be too small and it would be annoying like heck.

compression categories: extreme, strong, medium, low
speed categories: fast, normal, slow, slower

You realize that I now decided to drop the 'fast' category entirely.

The meaning of the speed categories is:

• fast: VHQ=1 [not used]
• normal: VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames
• slow: VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames
• slower: VHQ=4, no b-frames, GMC

The meaning of compression categories now is:

• extreme: EQM v3ULR, AQ
• strong: EQM v3LR or -HR, depending on speed-preset
• medium: SixOfNine, QPel
• low: EQM v3EHR, QPel

actual pairings: extreme(normal, slow), strong (normal, slow), medium (normal, slow), low (slower)

So we have seven basic presets.

In addition to this we have two presets for special purposes that stand apart:

• a fast, 'near lossless' preset for editing, 1-pass only: ME6, VHQ=1, no b-frames, chroma ME, EQM EHR, constant quantizer = 2
• an 'anime' preset: cartoon mode(!), b-frames ratio 1.0, offset=1, ME6, VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, chroma ME, H.263, 1st pass @q=2, quantizer-restrictions min. 2 max. 6

The seven basic presets in detail again:

• normal extreme compression: VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, AQ, EQM v3 ULR, 1st pass @q=4, curve-compr. H30, L15, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5
• slow extreme compression: VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, AQ, EQM v3 ULR, 1st pass @q=4, curve-compr. H30, L15, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5
• normal strong compression: VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, EQM v3 LR, 1st pass @q=3, curve-compr. H20, L7, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 4
• slow strong compression: VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, EQM v3 HR, QPel, 1st pass @q=3, curve-compr. H20, L7, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 4
• fast medium compression: VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, SixOfNine, Qpel, 1st pass @q=3 curve-compr. H15, L5, quantizer-restrictions min. 2, max. 5
• slow medium compression: VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, SixOfNine, Qpel, 1st pass @q=3, curve-compr. H10, L3, quantizer-restrictions min. 2, max. 5
  
• DVD-R perfect:ME precision=4, VHQ=3, VHQ for b-frames, b-frames 1/1.00/1.00, b-frame sensitivity=-3, SixOfNine, QPel, 1st pass @q=2, no curve-compression, quantizer-restrictions min., 2 max. 3
• slower low compression: VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, b-frames 1/1.00/1.00, b-frame sensitivity=-3, GMC, EQM v3UHRv1 QPel, 1st pass @q=4, quantizer-restrictions min., 2 max. 4

Settings that are always active if not specified otherwise: ME precision=6, chroma ME, Trellis, chroma opt., b-frames: max. 2 consecutive, ratio 1.62, offset 0, ME precision = 5 for first pass.
Note: 1st pass @ quant=xy means that you have to set that quantizer as a zone in the first pass and have to change it back to weight=1 for the second pass.

First pass settings:

Same CQM as in second pass; same b-frame max. nr., ratio, offset as in second pass; AQ if used in second pass; Trellis; ME precision=5, (except for the 'DVD-R perfect' preset, where it should be '4'); VHQ=1; Turbo. A zone with constant quantizer as specified in the preset-settings.
And that's it; no QPel, no GMC, no VHQ for-b-frames, no chroma ME.



These are how the settings could actually be named in the config:

• normal extreme compression: fast, 1 - 2 CD-Rs
• slow extreme compression: HQ, 1 - 2 CD-Rs
• normal strong compression: fast, 2 - 3 CD-Rs
• slow strong compression: HQ, 2 - 3 CD-Rs
• fast medium compression: fast, 3 CD-Rs
• slow medium compression: HQ, 3 CD-Rs
• slower low compression: insane, 3 CD-Rs - 1 DVD-R
• anime
• for editing only

And these would be tooltips:
[tooltip for the title:]100 minutes at full resolution (if you get undersizing choose a higher preset, if you get oversizing choose a lower preset)

• fast, 1 - 2 CD-Rs: at ~15-25% of original filesize
• HQ, 1 - 2 CD-Rs: at ~15-25% of original filesize, apt for sports
• fast, 2 - 3 CD-Rs: apt for standard DVD backup at ~25-35% of original filesize
• HQ, 2 - 3 CD-Rs: apt for standard DVD backup at ~25-35% of original filesize
• fast, 3 CD-Rs: apt for transparent DVD backup at ~30-60% of original filesize, also for noisy sources at >40%
• HQ, 3 CD-Rs: apt for transparent DVD backup at ~30-60% of original filesize
  
• DVD-R perfect: apt for transparent DVD-to-DVD-R backup at >90% in Enc comp. check, preserves film-grain MPEG-2-style
• DVD-R sharpen: apt for DVD-to-DVD-R backup (clean sources) at >50% of original filesize, also for noisy sources at >60
• anime: ?
• for editing only: fast, near lossless encoding, huge filesizes, NOT for archiving purposes

Hope I didn't mix anything up. Edit: Already found and corrected some mistakes.

Edit: How to choose the right preset
You can use the percentage of the original VOB-file that you aim for as a pointer. But that only works if you encode at full-resolution and the VOB doesn't contain audio. It's rather a rule of thumb.
You can also do a quick compressibility check with Enc which should take only 10 minutes or something. This could be a bit more precise. (BTW, it's a good idea to try and keep the full resolution of the source if possible. No sense in encoding 320x at the DVD-R preset...) Just start up Enc, select your .avs, choose 'compressibility check' and enter the filesize you're aiming for in kilobytes. Then you have to configure XviD. Set it to single-pass, constant quantizer=3. Load the SixOfNine (non-VHS!) CQM and set b-frames to max=2, ratio=1.62, offset=0, ME-precision to 4, VHQ=off, Trellis=on, Turbo=on and no other switches at all. (That means, it'll go damn fast...) Then run Enc. The outcome will be a percentage value. And here are pointers as to how to interpret the result:
<30%: bad luck, decrease resolution
>30%: you can use the 1-2 CD preset
>44%: you can use the 2-3 CD preset
>60%: you can use the 3CD - DVD-R preset
>90%: you can use the DVD-R preset
Attention: still not thoroughly tested; if you get over- or undersizing please report!

Edit: After further testing back to UHRv1 for DVD-R preset; also corrected max. quant. for that mode.
Edit: After obviously using the presets at for wrong target-filesizes is not unusual, here's very 'restrictive restrictions'... Try it.
Edit: The presets are hardly overlapping anymore, now. And the extreme preset can not compress that extremely, anymore, really. But at least its results cannot look that bad anymore, either.
Edit: QPel for HQ, 2 - 3 CD-Rs

[shpitz]

that is an excellent summary, thanks !

[Teegedeck]

Originally Posted by Sharktooth

UHR was tuned down to rise the compression.
The original UHR (rev 1) had 8s in place of 10s and was showing more detailed noise than 6of9 at high bitrates.
It was tested by someone but cant find that thread right now.

But it does seem OK to use EQM v3EHR instead, keeping in mind that this is meant to represent better quality than the 3-CD preset? Kind of a 'hyper-ultra-super-extra-insane' quality that some people with big disks keep wishing for. EHR @4 seems to make for a smooth transgression from SixOfNine @2. I have only tested this on one source (Closer) as of yet, so I'm not entirely sure.

The 'old' UHR version vs. SixOfNine as contenders for the 'HQ' 2-CD preset would probably be not an easy comparison and I'm a bit weary of testing already ATM.

[BigDid]

Originally Posted by raeltheimperialaerosolkid

... The only ones that REALLY create problems are Qpel, Packed bitstream and GMC.
In terms of settings, things could be more compllicated... i.e. SAP have problems with higher resolutions (over 800pixels)

Even over 640 width for some

and very high bitrate (over 5-6Mbps)

Even 4mbp/s for some

Anyway this could be a way to go. The SAP users are becoming a very big legion...

+1

I also have read Teegedeck true reflexion about hardware profile but... it is just my reflexions aloud; Could it be possible -in term of information- or hints to display a "SAP friendly" notice somewhere like:

* normal extreme compression: fast, 1 - 2 CD-Rs
Most "SAP friendly" (custom matrix may not be playable)
* slow extreme compression: HQ, 1 - 2 CD-Rs
Most "SAP friendly" (custom matrix may not be playable)
* normal strong compression: fast, 2 - 3 CD-Rs
Some "SAP friendly" (1/custom matrix may not be playable, 2/Over 2cd may be too much bitrate)
* slow strong compression: HQ, 2 - 3 CD-Rs
Some "SAP friendly" (1/custom matrix may not be playable, 2/Over 2cd may be too much bitrate)
* fast medium compression: fast, 3 CD-Rs
Few "SAP friendly" (1/custom matrix may not be playable, 2/Over 2cd may be too much bitrate, 3/ Qpel seldom playable)
* slow medium compression: HQ, 3 CD-Rs
Few "SAP friendly" (1/custom matrix may not be playable, 2/Over 2cd may be too much bitrate, 3/ Qpel seldom playable)
* slower low compression: insane, 3 CD-Rs - 1 DVD-R
Not "SAP friendly" (GMC not playable)
* anime
Most "SAP friendly" (Over 2cd may be too much bitrate)
* for editing only
Few "SAP friendly" (1/custom matrix may not be playable, 2/Over 2cd may be too much bitrate)

All this if I understand correctly; if not other propositions are welcome.

Did

[Teegedeck]

It's simply that 'the better the quality, the more probable it is that your hardware player won't play it'! Do you really need another tooltip in order to remember that?

But you can help me telling me one bit: What I thought is that hardware profiles should just deactivate features that don't comply with them. Do they do that? I haven't ever tried it as I don't own a standalone and don't intend buying one.

[yaz]

@teegedeck
1st of all, big thx for all of your efforts. i'm sure it is the way of bringing down this continuous 'how-to-set' problem.

however, having read your proposal some questions occured to me.

what's the reason of not using b-frames while using gmc at 'slower lo-comp' (very last settings) ? using b-frames will (would) increase compression and decrease speed (esp.w/vhq). so, i can't get it.

as regards gmc itself. imho, it is (can be) useful for anime but 'real movies' benefit insignificantly from it. while it drops down the encoding speed significantly and causes problems for lots of hw players. (note, in most instances, the term 'capable of playing xvid gmc' in feature lists means only that the player wont stop/jerk/hook on s-frames, nothing more)

what is the logic behind the curve-compression settings ? would u point me/us some info about it ? say, i've been never able to figure out what's the difference between H25/L15 and H10/L0. by watching it i can't see the difference. (which accords to my simple math sense)

further, 'cd-scaled compression' is a bit misleading for me. it prompts sg depending on the aim of the user not on the characteristics of the video stream. some movies may be compressed well to 1cd others may result in horrible quality at the same size. imho, using the percent (compression) scale exclusively would be more adequate here.

as i see, compression is mainly governed by cqms. wout doubting any of your selections what if cqm is not applicable (for any reason) ? remember, lots of ppl encodes for hw players, where cqm may be problematic.

stone-carving me6 prompts that (almost) noise-free sources are considered only. for noisy sources me6 is suboptimal, imho.

it's not obvious how to perform the 1st pass. would it be the same settings or sg different ? if the latter, what exactly ? (if not, why not ? )

pls, take it all as my loud murmur (any smell of offense or negativism was unintentional).

thx, again
y

[Teegedeck]

First of all, thanks for the encouragement!

Originally Posted by yaz

what's the reason of not using b-frames while using gmc at 'slower lo-comp' (very last settings) ? using b-frames will (would) increase compression and decrease speed (esp.w/vhq). so, i can't get it.

Well-spotted. The overall concept of these presets is that when you choose higher presets quality rises and speed drops (except for anime & editing presets) but this is of course not always true. While b-frames slow down encoding, they don't improve quality at bitrates/filesizes where you don't really need b-frames anymore. Like, when you transcode a DVD to a DVD-R you don't need b-frames. The 'insane' AKA DVD-R preset is just what it claims to be: insanely slow, insanely high-filesize and insanely high quality. No nonsense and relentless, uncompromising quality...

as regards gmc itself. imho, it is (can be) useful for anime but 'real movies' benefit insignificantly from it. while it drops down the encoding speed significantly[...]

As I wrote above, the idea is, quality goes up, speed drops. The highest preset will logically be the one that uses the slowest and highest-quality settings.
Are you sure GMC improves anime signifcantly?

[...] and causes problems for lots of hw players. (note, in most instances, the term 'capable of playing xvid gmc' in feature lists means only that the player wont stop/jerk/hook on s-frames, nothing more)

You shouldn't use that preset then. Or manually deactivate GMC after selecting it. But really, if you have selected the correct hardware profile shouldn't GMC be deactivated at any rate? (And BTW, wouldn't any standalone choke on bitates of 3-5 Mbps with peaks of, dunno, 9 Mbps?)

To repeat it once again: These presets are quality-presets, not hardware-presets. Either the hardware-profiles work correctly and then you needn't worry about incompatiblilities because GMC is deactivated automatically or if it doesn't someone should fix hardware-profiles.

These presets are meant to deliver the best quality at full anamorphic resolution for the respective filesize. The filesizes to be covered range from 1 CD to 1 DVD-R. Hardware players are bound to be unable to play back files encoded at best quality settings. In this respect the very concept of quality presets conflicts with standalone compatibility. The solution to this conflict is working hardware profiles. Not the watering-down of quality presets.

If hardware-profiles don't work you'll have to work out up to which preset your standalone still plays back the results. If you have found that point, that is the maximum quality your standalone delivers and henceforth you can forget about the higher presets.

what is the logic behind the curve-compression settings ? would u point me/us some info about it ? say, i've been never able to figure out what's the difference between H25/L15 and H10/L0. by watching it i can't see the difference. (which accords to my simple math sense)

I am not an expert in curve-compression usage myself but some curve-compression is almost always better than none because if you use none, if your 2nd-pass average quantizer is 3.5, the decision which frame is compressed at 3 and which one is compressed at 4 will be rather arbitrary. With CC, the smaller frame should be compressed at 3 and the bigger frame should be compressed at 4. That's the economically sane and psychovisually safe decision. It means 'bitrate' is shuffled from one big frame, where you shouldn't realize much, unto several smaller frames where you would possibly have realized a higher quantizer. The higher the flucuations in a second pass are (bigger quantizers, higher-coefficient matrices), the more important CC should grow. So while I cannot predict whether a user would use a preset at it's upper limit (high quantizers or not) I do know that the lower presets use high-coefficienty CQMs. So that's why these presets also use higher CC-values. One can also guess that the 'fast' presets will trigger higher quantizers in 2nd pass than their 'HQ' counterparts and thus attain slightly higher CC-values to them, too. The visible difference should not be much but, as said, it is better to have some CC than none.

further, 'cd-scaled compression' is a bit misleading for me. it prompts sg depending on the aim of the user not on the characteristics of the video stream. some movies may be compressed well to 1cd others may result in horrible quality at the same size. imho, using the percent (compression) scale exclusively would be more adequate here.

You're absolutely right there and I don't like that naming-convention. But a user-reaction (asking whether the medium-compression HQ preset with SixOfNine was good for 1-CD encodes) prompted me to think that there are worse things than vastly inaccurate names - that is to say, giving the user a hint for correct usage that he doesn't understand and thus ignores. So I'm gonna go for the terribly inaccurate indication that at least implies clearly that higher quality will need appropriately higher filesizes anyway and I'd leave the percentages and the 'for noisy sources'-hints to the (hypothetical) tooltips. At least it is a working general pointer: If you want a 1-CD encode of a terribly noisy source the 1-2 CD-preset will be better for that than the 2-CD preset anyway. And if you use the wrong preset you get either undersizing or oversizing but NEVER bad quality...

Let's face it; while it's fine for us to check the filesize for some VOBs - which we made sure carry just video, not audio - the average user would possibly prefer an ogg/lamedropxp-like usability: Drag'n drop a video file onto the XviD-proggie which is preconfigured to deliver 1-CD encodes and there it goes. (Such functionality is of course more of AutoGK's or MeGUI's field, but those could use XviD presets, too, like lamedrop uses lame-presets, and it really isn't important where presets are stored.) We have to kinda of bear that in mind. And I think presets as the ones I suggest would offer better usability to those people and also to expert users who could load a preset and then just change a few settings, like usage of GMC, instead of reconfiguring everything again and again manually for different projects.

as i see, compression is mainly governed by cqms. wout doubting any of your selections what if cqm is not applicable (for any reason) ? remember, lots of ppl encodes for hw players, where cqm may be problematic.

Read above, I don't concern myself with hardware-incompatibilities. If your player can't play maximum quality, it simply can't. Without CQMs there's really not so much visible difference and presets would be hardly worthwhile

stone-carving me6 prompts that (almost) noise-free sources are considered only. for noisy sources me6 is suboptimal, imho.

That is a point I'd really like to delve into. There are voices that recommend ME=4 but I'd like to test that personally in 2-pass thoroughly before I'd accept the enormous waste in filesize/bitrate that this would ensue. If it proves to be worthwhile, ME=4 will have its place in the 'fast' presets that are recommended (in the hypothetical tooltips) for noisy sources (fast 2-CD preset, fast 3-CD preset).

it's not obvious how to perform the 1st pass. would it be the same settings or sg different ? if the latter, what exactly ?

Presets would only make sense if the same CQM is used in both passes . And the first pass would be performed at the recommended quantizer, of course. Other than that, fast first pass switches off a lot of things as it is now, too. But I would like fast first pass to use ME=5 instead of 3 because it is much more accurate in filesize-prediction and not so much slower.

pls, take it all as my loud murmur (any smell of offense or negativism was unintentional).

Thanks again for your interesting comments/questions and the encouragement! You're welcome.

Edited: Lots already. Have you ever tried to edit posts on an ancient computer running Win98? Don't do it, it's hell. I don't know why but some of my edits are gone. And gone again. And again. I have no idea why. I have written the whole darn post at least three times over now! Edit: And now I see why - apparently instead of editing it posted the post anew two times...