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Old 8th November 2005, 11:51   #201  |  Link
Elias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
OGM is a dead format. I would suggest you to use MKV instead.
Not to mention, a hack of OGG, which means no real support for such things as this. And yes, use MKV if you want an open source container suitable for all kinds of codecs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
As some people from HydrogenAudio proved, AAC in current implementations is quite often worse then MP3.
What? Are you stating that mp3 is a better audio codec than AAC as we speak?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
The best AAC encoder seems to be WinAMP. You can use WinAMP's filters in BeLight a you don't have to download 100MB of Nero's all-in-one, which can do everything, but nothing correctly.
Last I checked, Apple's AAC encoder gave best quality. What does Nero's AAC encoder handle/do in an improper way?
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Last edited by Elias; 8th November 2005 at 11:57.
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Old 8th November 2005, 12:14   #202  |  Link
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I understand quite well the interest in trying out new things, but considering my needs (receiver-based decoding of any multi-channel material over S/PDIF and highest audio quality all around), as well as the procedure I've standardized myself upon (DVD Decrypter -> DGIndex -> GKnot (not autogk) => .AVI, then VDubMod muxes the .AVI and audio extracted from the above DGIndex step (DTS whenever available, then 5.1 AC3, and Vorbis for all 2ch material), it doesn't make sense for me to use AAC for anything (since my receiver can't decode it, can any?), or a container format other than OGM. I've never had any trouble with OGM, and VDubMod supports it fully, unlike MKV. When Matroska support in VDubMod materializes, I'd be happy to start using that. VDubMod is so useful for things above and beyond encoding and muxing, I'm not yet willing to abandon it and start creating files it can't read in.

Can anyone see any flaws in my logic? Am I missing anything? I understand the preference for formats that properly support Unicode (I'm a big supporter myself), but I don't need anything other than vanilla English support for my own purposes, so I'd like to wait for VDubMod to properly support the full Matroska spec before switching from OGM. Does this make sense to anyone? Also, why are people even discussing anything made by Apple? What could possibly be interesting about anything QT-related, in the context of the discussion of the selection of superior formats? I think there's something key to this whole thing that I'm missing.

@Vlada: I'm also curious about the role pixel shaders have in video playback. Does anyone know?
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Old 8th November 2005, 12:57   #203  |  Link
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Yeah, basically I totally agree with you, I've been waiting for SV8,
but I suppose that won't come soon...

BTW before someone gets wrong idea reading vlada's post:
MPC could mean both Media Player Classic and Musepack.
Vlada said "MPC seems to be dead," but that doesn't mean Media Player Classic.
This is getting too off-topic, but there is some complication about Musepack.
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Old 8th November 2005, 13:45   #204  |  Link
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Liisachan> I don't say that MP3 is better format then AAC, but current implementations of AAC (FAAC, Nero) give sometimes a worse result then MP3
(LAME 3.97). Have a look at this thread. Of course AAC has a higher potential then MP3, but it just seems that current encoders don't use it.

Regarding Nero, I meant to say that it has many bugs in all of it's applications. Not that there is a bug in AAC encoder. But anyway the Nero AAC encoder doesen't seem to give a good quality results, but the people from Nero say they are working on improvement.

RyosukeFC> VDM is also a dead project and is not developed for more then a year, IIRC. So don't expect to have a correct support for MKV there. To work with MKV use AVI-Mux GUI or MKVToolnix. I don't say, that OGM is a bad container, but it is unsupported and you will likely run into problems with it.

I would suggest you to produce a video file using DGIndex+AviSynth+VD (or VDM) as you do now, then mux it with original DTS or AC3 sound with MKVToolnix. It easy to do and it gives you a lot of new possibilities. A perfect splitter with chapters support, a good support for multiple audio tracks and a lot more. I would SUGGEST you to switch to MKV, but if you don't, it's your choice. I can't make you

P.S. Sorry for this offtopic.

Last edited by vlada; 8th November 2005 at 13:47.
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Old 8th November 2005, 13:50   #205  |  Link
Liisachan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
RyosukeFC> VDM is also a dead project and is not developed for more then a year, IIRC.
That's not true.
VirtualDubMod1.5.10.2 is dated August 29, 2005, and it's one of my everyday tools for typesetting when subbing.
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Old 8th November 2005, 13:54   #206  |  Link
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AAC is generally a really crappy codec, MP3 is so mature that is can easily produce similar quality nowadays, to get a real improvement you should still use OGG Vorbis Audio, it's a real free format and it has superior sound quality. He may not do wonders at low bitrates like HE-AAC but for general material it's the best codec to choose.

Unfortunately OGG doesn't support mixing channels together for multichannel audio, thus you need higher bitrates for 6ch audio. However AAC sounds pretty much crappy on a good 5.1 sound system with almost any bitrate, AC3 or DTS are still far superior to AAC. I think the problem is the prefiltering on playback that AAC requires, it uses basically the same trick MP3Pro introduced.

OGG Vorbis should also work in MP4 so you can actually keep using and just ditch AAC. AAC is just hyped because it's prolly the next industry standard for audio and the thing you call MPEG-4 audio, however, it sucks. Industry likes it as it's just another codec that they can make lots of cash with by licensing and of course it supports DRM, just the same reason they like the mp4 container, as you can also enhance it with DRM.

Anyone still using ogm must be an idiot

Last edited by videomixer9; 8th November 2005 at 13:59.
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Old 8th November 2005, 14:07   #207  |  Link
Elias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videomixer9
Anyone still using ogm must be an idiot
This just makes your bold statements about how much "AAC sucks" sound invalid and unprofessional. Maddox type of statements aren't popular around here.

mp3 can use DRM too if I remember correct, yet Apple, Nero, Winamp and other companies favour AAC over mp3. The only reason why mp3 is still being used over other superior codecs like AAC, OGG Vorbis etc, is because of its compatibility. That's it. mp3 is old and outdated (even though Lame is really good), and as much as the current implementations of AAC don't use the full potential of AAC, I seriously doubt they're all inferior to mp3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
Have a look at this thread.
That's an old test, iTunes didn't even have VBR AAC at the time. CBR is always inferior to VBR in terms of quality and filesize.
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Old 8th November 2005, 14:21   #208  |  Link
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it's obvious for anyone who got a good sound system and some working ears, AAC often suffers from crispy sound and especially with 6ch audio has a noise loaden flat sound. The decoder applies this special filter for HE-AAC. For 2ch audio it suffers mostly from the crisp sound that's not really what i'd call clear and in blind hearing test i'd bet most ppl would say an 96kbps MP3 sounds better than the same bitrate AAC file. AAC only has a better scaling on low bitrates, but with video that's not meant for low bitrate streaming you'd never use so low rates anyways, and to get 6ch AAC to sound good you're almost at rates many AC3 streams are at anyways.

AAC encoders are far from mature, just like most H264 encoders. Maturity is one thing you should make a choice by, and there is not a single mature AAC encoder unlike there are for ogg or mp3.
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Old 8th November 2005, 14:59   #209  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videomixer9
Unfortunately OGG doesn't support mixing channels together for multichannel audio, thus you need higher bitrates for 6ch audio.
right

Quote:
However AAC sounds pretty much crappy on a good 5.1 sound system with almost any bitrate, AC3 or DTS are still far superior to AAC.
you can never compare a source ac3/dts with a reencoded other audio format because the reencode will always have less quality

but yeah it would be interesting to see a codec comparison comparing ac3/dts performance on 5.1 compared to aac encoded from a real raw 5.1 source at lets say 192kbps

i never saw such a comparison but a wild guess would be you are totally wrong

Quote:
I think the problem is the prefiltering on playback that AAC requires, it uses basically the same trick MP3Pro introduced.
there is no prefiltering done in normal aac

Quote:
OGG Vorbis should also work in MP4 so you can actually keep using and just ditch AAC.
yeah it works, but its not standardised so it will hardly work anywhere

Quote:
AAC is just hyped because it's prolly the next industry standard for audio and the thing you call MPEG-4 audio, however, it sucks. Industry likes it as it's just another codec that they can make lots of cash with by licensing and of course it supports DRM, just the same reason they like the mp4 container, as you can also enhance it with DRM.
drm is not a thing of the container or audio format
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Old 8th November 2005, 19:49   #210  |  Link
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sorry for the prefiltering, meant postfiltering of course ...
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Old 8th November 2005, 21:21   #211  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videomixer9
sorry for the prefiltering, meant postfiltering of course ...
there is also no postfiltering done in aac
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Old 8th November 2005, 23:33   #212  |  Link
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Liisachan> I didn't know about this VDM release, I was using 1.5.10.1 from December 2003 - almost 2 years old. I couldn't find a changelog, do you know what's new? It would be great if somebody starts working on this program again.

Elias> The comparison of MP3, AAC and Vorbis, I reffered to, is from August 2005, it is the newest one I saw.

bond> What is meant by channel mixing? Is it something like joint-stereo? You create a "middle channel" and then you only store differences between the main one and the other channels? That shouldn't be so hard to implement. Why doesn't Vorbis support it?

Btw. I think we got quite off-topic. Why not split this thread and move this discussion to the proper section?

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Old 8th November 2005, 23:58   #213  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlada
bond> What is meant by channel mixing? Is it something like joint-stereo? You create a "middle channel" and then you only store differences between the main one and the other channels? That shouldn't be so hard to implement. Why doesn't Vorbis support it?
its called channel coupling and its afaik something similar as you wrote
vorbis doesnt support it as noone implemented it till now
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Old 9th November 2005, 00:59   #214  |  Link
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Streaming-related Problems

A few users reported that recent versions of Media Player Classic got problems when handling streaming formats, such as .asx.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...095#post735095
Quote:
Originally Posted by locotus
I use MPC mostly for internet streaming, since version 6.485 the player couldn,t
handle the asf stream included in asx files. Prior versions works perfectly.
The following are what I gathered. This is not my direct experience and may be inaccurate, but 6.4.7.8 and newer versions seem to have these problems, and older versions are generally okay:

(1) MPC doesn't understand the relative path in .asx, such as
Code:
<ENTRY>
    <REF HREF="./relative/path/to/video.mpeg" />
</ENTRY>
(2) MPC adds URL in <MOREINFO> to the playlist as a file to play:
Code:
<BANNER HREF="http://sample.com/logo.png">
    <ABSTRACT>About Us</ABSTRACT>
    <MOREINFO HREF="http://sample.com/dont.play.me.html" />
</BANNER>
(3) MBCS in .asx may make MPC crash, whereas WCHAR in .asx is ok

(4) The same ASX file doesn't work if the extension is not .asx (This should be 'by design')

(5) Streamed .rm / .ra doesn't play just because the file extension is .ram

(6) Streamed vorbis.ogg doesn't play by default. Using File extensions|.ogg|RealMedia may fix the problem as a workaround.

(7) Streamed (? Embedded-in-HTML?) OGM doesn't play by MPC's internal splitter. An external filter like OggDS is needed.

@vlada
Just click the green book icon to see changelog in sf.
http://sourceforge.net/project/shown...ease_id=352709

Last edited by Liisachan; 9th November 2005 at 01:08.
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Old 9th November 2005, 14:13   #215  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bond
there is also no postfiltering done in aac
I meant the filter used on HE-AAC that was already implemented similar in MP3Pro, you e.g. hear the result of this method when you used winamp on aacplus streaming media, for a short moment the sound is damp and then suddenly gets much brighter, I forgot how this filter is called, it's part of the proper decoding but i'd compare it to h264 and deblocker that's controlled at encoding time, as the real work is done by the decoder.
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Old 9th November 2005, 14:50   #216  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videomixer9
I forgot how this filter is called, it's part of the proper decoding
This is SBR and PS decoders
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Old 9th November 2005, 18:42   #217  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videomixer9
I meant the filter used on HE-AAC that was already implemented similar in MP3Pro, you e.g. hear the result of this method when you used winamp on aacplus streaming media, for a short moment the sound is damp and then suddenly gets much brighter
never heard this, propably a bug in winamps decoder
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Old 10th November 2005, 17:37   #218  |  Link
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Is anyone experiencing bugs with MPC anymore?
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Old 10th November 2005, 17:49   #219  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias
Is anyone experiencing bugs with MPC anymore?
I'm of the opinion that when playing 1280x720 MPEG-4 files with SRT subs in AVI (or MP4), using MPC's VMR7 (renderless) mode and its own MP4 splitter, the video has a tendency to stutter quite a bit
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Old 10th November 2005, 18:55   #220  |  Link
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The latest build does not appear to correctly display the streams properties within the MP4 container: -




Notice how it lists the first AAC stream as being "stereo", when it is in-fact 6Ch (5.1) "surround sound".


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