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Old 23rd June 2004, 17:04   #621  |  Link
Eye of Horus
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Quote:
Originally posted by ursamtl
  • As soon as I see you start to respect others and give others credit for their work instead of claiming it is your own.
  • As soon as you stop reacting negatively to the smallest criticisms and accusing anyone who does criticize you of twisting words. Just because I dared to criticize your "Ambisonics" method, you've been reacting negatively to every single statement I've made. Even when in the beginning you were at least pretending to be pleasant with me, I detected a sarcastic tone throughout your postings to me.
  • As soon as you stop rambling constantly about how hard you work and just simply present the work and let it speak for itself, just as everyone else who contributed bidules and files to this forum has done. I didn't see species 8472, desertrat, me, or any of the other contributors doing this. We simply posted our stuff. Again I repeat what I said yesterday, why not adopt the same approach as Daphy and Andy? Treat this as an interesting experience and put everyone on an equal footing. Just because you started a thread on upmixing to surround sound doesn't mean you invented it or that we should pay you some sort of monthly hommage or worship. Does this thread exist for you or for all of us?
Whatever ! PLONK !!

EoH
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Old 23rd June 2004, 18:37   #622  |  Link
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Hi I have followed you instruction, but when it comes to using Besweet it does not recognise the wav file. Can you help in any way or am i doing something wronge.
Cheers
Gareth
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Old 23rd June 2004, 19:36   #623  |  Link
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Originally posted by MC24 Geeek
Hi I have followed you instruction, but when it comes to using Besweet it does not recognise the wav file. Can you help in any way or am i doing something wronge.
Cheers
Gareth
Hi Gareth,

Do you have the correct settings in Plogue's Bidule ?
Go to the "edit" menu, chose "preferences",
goto Disk I/O and make sure that "use WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE" is set to "never" !
Set it to another value and Besweet doesn't recognize the WAV !

I hope this works for you !

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 23rd June 2004, 20:02   #624  |  Link
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FTP- Server online again

Hello guys,
since yesterday i have a new ISP with a faster connection.
Solved also today a problem with our dynamic IP.

Have fun and keep in mind that we have three sources:

needful things #1

needfulthings #2

and with upload possibility:

ftp- server


Keep surrounding

Yours
@ndy
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Old 23rd June 2004, 23:29   #625  |  Link
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Emigrator pro64 release

Just saw that the announced and long-awaited 64-bit version of Emigrator was released: Emigrator pro64

Quote:
Emigrator pro64 is basically the same as Emigrator, but there is one big difference: it uses 64 bit resolution for the decoding and equations. 64 bit resolution improves the audiophile quality many times, because it does not suffer from floating point round off errors (introducing audible / perceptable artifacts to the digital audio signal). The resolution of the decoding equations in Emigrator pro64 is also many times finer.
Please note that this is not freeware (the author asks for $19, very reasonable in my personal opinion). If you really like Ambisonics, I recommend and encourage you to consider this. For the avoidance of any doubts: I have no special relationship to Gerzonic, but the 64 bit decoding precision will make a noticeable difference (a bit as if you feed 32 bit vs. 16 bit to VST processing tools such as bidule).

Anyhow ... just meant as info.

Andreas
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Old 23rd June 2004, 23:40   #626  |  Link
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The next step...going up!

Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
@ Steve: Thanks for your feedback (BTW having the same experience here that running things through the ASIO gives a good anticipation on how it will come out on the big 5.1 system).
Andreas,

I've now tested all the groups and bidules from the Gerzon_1997 files you uploaded and so far everything confirms my earlier statement, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule definitely stands out as providing an accurate professional sounding mix, provided the rears are backed off a bit. The others sound similar although not as good to my ears. Actually the Preservation_5_Speaker_v1_REC_.bidule is a bit more balanced in terms of the rear levels, but for some reason I haven't yet nailed down, v2 just seems to sound better.

So, now the next step comes up. I'm sure you're familiar with plugins and progs such as Ambisone, the Spinaudio panners, etc. Perhaps you're also familiar with 3D positional audio. Have you seen anything around on the net concerning this? What would be very cool is to be able to encode some sort of vertical information into a 5.1 system. I know that without speakers mounted above, the reproduction is not going to be possible. I also know that although Ambisonics can carry vertical information, if it's recorded in the first place. However, sound card DSPs have no reached the point where they can produce nearly believable vertical sound, so the question is how do we implement it? If a program such as Ambisone can make sound appear to come from the back even from stereo speakers, surely it should be possible to make sound appear to come from above in a 5.1 system. The same goes for all those two-channel stereo TVs out there with "Virtual surround." I know mine sounds uncanny sometimes with sounds seeming to come from behind and several meters away from the TV (and no, no drugs were involved . Since a 5.1 mix gives us the horizontal information only, the missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized.

Anybody?
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Old 24th June 2004, 00:11   #627  |  Link
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Hi

Thanks for the reply, I have tried what you said but still have no joy. Here is the error log i get.

Error 58: Error : Unknown Input-File Format : "c:\Agility DVD Files Encore\test.wav".
Quiting...
[00:00:00:000] Conversion Completed !
Logging ends : 06/24/04 , 00:07:55.

Sorry to be a pain but i am very new to all this.
Cheers
Gareth
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Old 24th June 2004, 00:23   #628  |  Link
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Steve,

I can only give some general information to your question.

Ambisone: It's a bit unclear as to what they really do, and they don't disclose anything. I think you better look at at WaveArt's WaveSurroundA VST doing similar things but much better documented and coming from someone with a very prooved track-record (Bill Gardiner).

SpinAudio: Uses XTC (cross-talk concellation). Basically the same topic as the Stereo Dipole I published erlier in this thred (using filters made available by Farina) as well as the XTC VST (including custom-made filter) by Species. SpinAudio's 3D Panner Studio has excellent help files.

For general introduction, see: ISVR Stereo Dipole as well as the related demo WAV files (but you need the closely spaced speakers for the demo to work coorectly).

On howto implement vertical decoding, see Miller's papers (http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm, with the i, j, k decodings) as well as the VST's published by "Species" here (IMHO, they are excellent, but that's my personal taste).

Regarding "missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized": I had a very similar thought and once called it "virtual Z restorer/panner" (meaning that Z/horizontal could be created from WXY, even when 'just' using artificall algorithms). That would be really cool indeed.

On howto use one speaker of current ITU-5.1 sytems for vertical informatation (i.e. one of the 5-6 speakers used for decoding vertical data), I just know that Farina, Malham, and others are aware of the the need for more research on this, and that there are efforts on this front, but this is very early work-in-progress and we have to take it as 'teaser' of what to expect over the next 12-24 months.

Sorry for the limited answer (have to leave for a ahort business travel) but hope this helps.

Andreas
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Old 24th June 2004, 01:32   #629  |  Link
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Re: Emigrator pro64 release

Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
Just saw that the announced and long-awaited 64-bit version of Emigrator

Please note that this is not freeware ....

Anyhow ... just meant as info.

Andreas
Funny not even a trial? Would need a trial to get 20 out of me im such a cheap #!?%

Anyway EOH has me tickled pink getting my tunes rocken like they are now .... Thankz.

Maybe you can up load the ftp a sample 32 vs. 64 (same clip) so we can hear the diff.

Peace
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Old 24th June 2004, 06:32   #630  |  Link
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already solved

@MC24 Geeek
the error 58 is already solved a couple weeks ago ( look here) I laid a text file (important.txt) on needfulthings ->'plogue' which contains kempfand´s solution!
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Old 25th June 2004, 13:07   #631  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
Steve,

I can only give some general information to your question.

Ambisone: It's a bit unclear as to what they really do, and they don't disclose anything. I think you better look at at WaveArt's WaveSurroundA VST doing similar things but much better documented and coming from someone with a very prooved track-record (Bill Gardiner).

SpinAudio: Uses XTC (cross-talk concellation). Basically the same topic as the Stereo Dipole I published erlier in this thred (using filters made available by Farina) as well as the XTC VST (including custom-made filter) by Species. SpinAudio's 3D Panner Studio has excellent help files.

For general introduction, see: ISVR Stereo Dipole as well as the related demo WAV files (but you need the closely spaced speakers for the demo to work coorectly).

On howto implement vertical decoding, see Miller's papers (http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm, with the i, j, k decodings) as well as the VST's published by "Species" here (IMHO, they are excellent, but that's my personal taste).

Regarding "missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized": I had a very similar thought and once called it "virtual Z restorer/panner" (meaning that Z/horizontal could be created from WXY, even when 'just' using artificall algorithms). That would be really cool indeed.

On howto use one speaker of current ITU-5.1 sytems for vertical informatation (i.e. one of the 5-6 speakers used for decoding vertical data), I just know that Farina, Malham, and others are aware of the the need for more research on this, and that there are efforts on this front, but this is very early work-in-progress and we have to take it as 'teaser' of what to expect over the next 12-24 months.

Sorry for the limited answer (have to leave for a ahort business travel) but hope this helps.

Andreas
Thanks for your answers, Andreas. Actually, I've tried Ambisone, Wavesurround, and the Spin Audio stuff. Personally I've found that the Ambisone gives the most realistic sounding horizontal directionality. It does have an elevation setting, but this doesn't seem to accomplish very much. If one closes his eyes and concentrates, there is some sense of difference among the various elevation levels, but how much of it is real and how much is sort of created by the power of "suggestion" or expectation? What I mean by that is, if one expects the sound to give a sense of vertical space, does he or she "fill in" missing psychoacoustic information, or is it actually there?

I still would love to get my hands on whatever the H2O team used for a 2-channel sound file that played during one of their install routines I once tried. It gave an incredibly realistic impression of water bubbling from the front in stereo and then out from the center over the listener's head. It was quite astounding in its realism.

I'm also wondering about Maven 3D Pro. This is a program that looks quite impressive, handles multichannel files, etc., but no one seems to talk about it on here or on any of the other sound forums. I tried the demo once but I didn't have the time to master it to the point where I could do much with it before it expired.

Thanks for the tips concerning Species 8472's VSTs. I'd downloaded them and tried to do something, but the center pages of this thread can tend to be a complete blur. Everyone was uploading bidules and VSTs around the same time and the details on each method didn't seem to get thoroughly discussed.

As for the Ambisonic decoding, I've tried playing around with some stuff but, while I get some interesting horizontal effects--especially when boosting the Y channel width info as in UpMix Studio-- I still haven't had much success with anything vertical. The same old problem arises, trying to apply Ambisonic encoding and decoding to sonic material that was not recorded for Ambisonics. The information just isn't there, so one must--as you said--apply artifical algorithms.

With the right HRTF processing some sense of vertical space should be possible. Or, perhaps some impulse responses with height info could be used to create b-format files with the Z info.

Have a good weekend,
Steve.

Last edited by ursamtl; 25th June 2004 at 16:54.
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Old 25th June 2004, 13:40   #632  |  Link
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Follow-up on Live/Audigy multichannel routing

As I mentioned on the plogue forum, in their default installation, the kX drivers for the Soundblaster Live/Audigy swap the front and rear signals sent to the analog output jacks on the cards. This was done because the AC97 codec chip used for the fronts--especially on the SB Lives--was of inferior quality to the chip used for the rears. In the kX Mixer, there's a switch that will reverse this if a user doesn't want the swap.

Consequently, someone may be unaware of this and wondering why there's no sound when installing the drivers with only front speakers hooked up. In such a case, try either plugging the speakers into the rear channel output or using the switch in the kX control panel.

Regards,
Steve

Last edited by ursamtl; 25th June 2004 at 13:48.
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Old 27th June 2004, 12:46   #633  |  Link
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strange problem !

I have a strange problem with Bidule/Besweet.
I have in Bidule : a 2 channel file player, one VST and a 6 channel filerecorder.
I have these all in 16 bits, the recorder records a 6 channel file in 16 bits and Besweet makes it 6 mono wav's with the normal order : FL,FR,C,LFE,SL,SR.
In the same layout I change the playing file to a 32 bit floating one and set the filerecorder to 32 bits float.
It writes a 6 channel wav.
This 6 channel wav goes through Besweet with the -6ch replaced by -6chfloat.
Now the order of the 6 mono files is completely mixed up !
LFE=SL, C=SR, FR=LFE, FL=C, SL=FL and SR=FR

Anyone any idea ??

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 28th June 2004, 01:26   #634  |  Link
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Bidule and besweet versions would be? This was a problem with an older version of bidule and besweet but have not had this problem for a while.

Peace
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Old 28th June 2004, 08:35   #635  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shayne
Bidule and besweet versions would be? This was a problem with an older version of bidule and besweet but have not had this problem for a while.

Peace
Bidule 0.6602 and Besweet b28

EoH
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Old 28th June 2004, 23:37   #636  |  Link
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I have tested 6601 and b28 and the 32 bit float output tested by gain decreases is correct. I have not tried 6602 maybe you should try the 6601 version and see if it is the same garbage out. If it is correct than it would be something changed in the .2 version. This has happened before.

Peace
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Old 29th June 2004, 18:21   #637  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shayne
I have tested 6601 and b28 and the 32 bit float output tested by gain decreases is correct. I have not tried 6602 maybe you should try the 6601 version and see if it is the same garbage out. If it is correct than it would be something changed in the .2 version. This has happened before.

Peace
I'm sorry : it's 0.6601 !

Today I tested again with the SRS VST : same problem, but... there is a pattern.

should be - is
FL - SL
FR - SR
C - LFE
LFE - FR
SL - C
SR - LFE

And again only with 32 bits files in a layout I used a minute before in and with 16 bits without any problem......

EoH
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Old 30th June 2004, 01:28   #638  |  Link
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Hmmm?

Perhaps you could post the layout file and we could test here. Would think it is only how you pin out to the recorder and things should not change. As i mentioned before your guide and 32 bit works just fine with pin outs and these two versions.

Peace
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Old 30th June 2004, 04:24   #639  |  Link
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Hi all,

Although things have been more on-topic over the last few posts, I'd ask you all again to keep things civil and on-topic. Anyone not respecting this is begging for an R4 or R16 strike.

As far as credit goes, I think the credit of contributors such as EoH and kempfand goes without saying. A comprehensive guide such as the one presented in this thread helps users more than any simple batch file could do. Think of the doom9 site. Without D9's guides, it would be nothing but a software archive. But his tenacious guides make it one of the most respected AV sites on the web. The bidules and methods used in this thread are well beyond my expertise and I don't feel that any credit needs to be given that hasn't already.

Now hopefully we can all move on and continue this groundbreaking audio conversion discussion.
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Old 30th June 2004, 07:56   #640  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shayne
Hmmm?

Perhaps you could post the layout file and we could test here. Would think it is only how you pin out to the recorder and things should not change. As i mentioned before your guide and 32 bit works just fine with pin outs and these two versions.

Peace
There is not much of a layout file
Besides, when I change the order of the pins, it would come back with a 16 bit file !
Anyway : 2 ch fileplayer, a VST that makes 6 channels (it's only 1 VST, not a complex group : A DPL decoder) and a 6 channel recorder. That's really all there is !

EoH
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