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Old 6th May 2004, 21:03   #421  |  Link
daphy
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sorry, this link leeds to your post again

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...8181#post488181
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Old 6th May 2004, 21:16   #422  |  Link
Eye of Horus
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Quote:
Originally posted by daphy
sorry, this link leeds to your post again

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...8181#post488181
Oops....

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75613

kind regards,

EoH
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Old 6th May 2004, 22:35   #423  |  Link
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Sorry but i d'ont speake fluently english.

The solution d'ont work with small files like mp3 songs, but work very well with big files like films sountrack.

I test tree different films 2 chapters in a serie 40 minutes each and a regular film. 105 minutes. 2,5 GB input wav file.

In all cases the bidule's layout work.

May be differences between song wav file and film wave file? The frames indicators? I d'ont know,

Alastor
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Old 6th May 2004, 22:42   #424  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by alastor
Sorry but i d'ont speake fluently english.

The solution d'ont work with small files like mp3 songs, but work very well with big files like films sountrack.

I test tree different films 2 chapters in a serie 40 minutes each and a regular film. 105 minutes. 2,5 GB input wav file.

In all cases the bidule's layout work.

May be differences between song wav file and film wave file? The frames indicators? I d'ont know,

Alastor
When you use NTFS the limit is 4 GB !!
On Fat32 it's 2 GB.....


Away now for a 2.5 week vacation ! Yeah !!!

EoH
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Old 7th May 2004, 21:01   #425  |  Link
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I finish to encode a very large film 2:09:04:412
Efectively i have small differences in time lenght of files center channel and lfe are ...04:064, surround 04:053 and front channels 04:405.

These differences are not significatives for a film, and the sound resultant is greather.

The proces is Bidule layout mod ( 6 recorders ) 16 bit deep, offline processing on.

Tomorrow test with offline processing off.

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Old 7th May 2004, 21:29   #426  |  Link
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32 Bit processing with SAD technique

I know that when I work with analogue to digital it is always advantagious to have the extra headroom with 32 bit. Why is there a need to process CD data in 32 bits when it ultimately will remain as 16 bit?

Also How does one label the files for Alaster's six recorder method E.G. Audio 001, 002 etc and how does the besweet batch file accomodate the 6 separate files. Does one run a batch file for the original batch file? I'm confused at this point!

However, as in the guide I thing multiple instances of the besweet batch should do the trick.

I haven't tried it yet but I think I could do this in Audition without using besweet. But I would like to save the work.

Regards,

Scott

Last edited by Tantulus; 7th May 2004 at 21:56.
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Old 7th May 2004, 23:15   #427  |  Link
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Quote:
Why is there a need to process CD data in 32 bits when it ultimately will remain as 16 bit?
This was discussed multiple times all over.
Main reasons:
(a) Advised by all audio professionals and experts
(b) Most VST's work internally using 32 or 64 bit, and driving them with more data depth will just make 'work' them better
(c) Most important: Make a listening test yourself. We did many blind ones, and could tell the difference most of the time

But: If (after you tested yourself) you are happy with 16-bit, go for it. After all, this is just a guide, not a law

Quote:
Also How does one label the files for Alaster's six recorder method
As written elsewhere, don't use 6 mono-recorders because that will lead do un-synched things in the beginning (wouldn't be an issue if it was at the end). Use 6-channel File Recorder (32-bit files), and the BeSweet v1.5b27+ to demux to 32-bit with option "-6chfloat".

Regards,
Andreas
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Old 8th May 2004, 05:38   #428  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
This was discussed multiple times all over.
Main reasons:
(a) Advised by all audio professionals and experts
(b) Most VST's work internally using 32 or 64 bit, and driving them with more data depth will just make 'work' them better
(c) Most important: Make a listening test yourself. We did many blind ones, and could tell the difference most of the time

But: If (after you tested yourself) you are happy with 16-bit, go for it. After all, this is just a guide, not a law

As written elsewhere, don't use 6 mono-recorders because that will lead do un-synched things in the beginning (wouldn't be an issue if it was at the end). Use 6-channel File Recorder (32-bit files), and the BeSweet v1.5b27+ to demux to 32-bit with option "-6chfloat".

Regards,
Andreas
With a max length of the CD of 682 MB.......

I am away

TTYL guys !

EoH
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Old 8th May 2004, 09:13   #429  |  Link
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A question please.

I undestand the convenience of using 32 bytes deep.

Usualy the sountrack film is in 16 bytes deep, is possible to convert for process at 32 bytes float, but at end of process it is neccesary re-convert a 16 bit, or 24 for sonic foundry, because the dvd reproducers not support 32 bytes.

All convert reconvert not suppose a quality loss?

Headac3 has these conversion, is a good program?

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Old 9th May 2004, 02:43   #430  |  Link
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Quote:
All convert reconvert not suppose a quality loss?
Headac3 has these conversion, is a good program?
My understanding is that it depends which SW you use to convert/reconvert. If done properly, you won't get too much quality loss. I use CoolEdit/Audition with the "Convert Sample Type". Slow but good results.

I don't know HeadAC3 too well, so I cannot comment on this.

Andreas
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Old 11th May 2004, 00:52   #431  |  Link
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Using 32 bit

Quote:
This was discussed multiple times all over.
Sorry Andreas! I found the discussion on the merits of 32 bit processing early in this thread a bit confusing. (pardon the pun)

As to the multiple recorders, I am nervous about using besweet with files greater then 2 megs. I'll give it a try with the suggests mentioned in the thread. However I did try the SAD method on a shorter file with one recorder and I did find the results "amazing".

Thanks for the patience and the advice from others

Scott
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Old 11th May 2004, 02:50   #432  |  Link
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I used Besweet tonight on a 2.58 GB 48/32-bit file tonight. Worked fine.
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Old 11th May 2004, 02:59   #433  |  Link
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Besweet

I'm trying a 2.9 Gig file and I'm getting different file lengths (at least it transcode all the way). Looks like I'm going to have to split the file.

Scott

P.S. Never mind! I didn't have enough disk space. After clearing things up besweet worked fine.

Once again, my naivety is exposed. 2.9 GB works fine.

Last edited by Tantulus; 11th May 2004 at 03:14.
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Old 11th May 2004, 10:28   #434  |  Link
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Re: NEW Bidule for excellent results !

Quote:
Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Kempfand and me developed a new bidule based on the old Kpex method.
The results (especially on synths music are amazing !)

You need of course Bidule from Plogue and the HNM filter which can be found on Daphy's site.

The new bidule can be downloaded from :
http://www.app.demon.nl/SAD5.1inBidule.rar

It uses freeware only !!

Please give it a try and share your thoughts !!

kind regards,

Eye of Horus
Thanks very much EOH and Kempfand. I have tried this new SAD5.1 bidule and am very pleased with the results. My test was done using The Best Of The Art Of Noise (1988 Version) and it came out so good, I had to do another AON right away. I have used ambisonic and wxyz methods with this album and was never quite happy with how they came out. For this type of music this bidule is excellent.

Cheers,
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Old 19th May 2004, 18:45   #435  |  Link
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Hi,

As I mentioned in another thread earlier today, I've been playing around with the various stereo-to-5.1 methods presented in the forum here. I've tried the Ambisonics guide several times, along with some of the variations presented throughout the thread. So far, I've not been at all impressed with the results. I've read the statements that the method presented here may not be to everyone's liking, but I've also read other comments from people who describe the ambisonic approach as providing a nice soundstage that gives a sense of a defined space, etc. All I've been able to get so far is a greatly narrowed stereo field that borders on mono with the same thing duplicated in the rear surround speakers. I don't think it's a case of bad connections as I've retried it several times according to the instructions. Plus, if I play with the controls in b_pan and bprocedit, I can hear the soundfield move around from one speaker to the other, but I don't get a sense of width to the sound. It's almost like panning a mono signal around four or five channels.

I'm not looking for instruments coming out of all speakers. Ideally I want as close as possible to the same big, immersive sound I get from a nice 5.1 DVD sountrack. I want the surround channels to reinforce the front and give me the sense that the instrument is playing on a soundstage in front of me, as if I'm in the room. The positive comments I've read about ambisonics seem to indicate that this is what people are getting, but I'm not!

I've gotten a far more pleasing result by creating a bidule that more or less duplicates the calculations in the Matrixmixer DirectX filter (from sourceforge) and then adding SIR to the back (with another dummy SIR on the front channels) and loading it with an impulse recorded from a Lexicon 960 that I found at www.noisevault.com. The impulse called "big wooden room" seems to work very well with the right levels. I'm at work now on my lunch break so I have no access to my files, but I'll try to post the bidule when I'm home.

In closing let me echo some other comments I've read here in saying that all the work you people are doing is truly amazing. I've learned a lot and am thoroughly enjoying all this experimenting! Keep it up!

Last edited by ursamtl; 19th May 2004 at 20:08.
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Old 19th May 2004, 20:39   #436  |  Link
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Ursamtl:
Kempfand has a "true ambiphonics" with ambisonics for the surround. I found this method to truely broaden the sound with depth added by the rear speakers. The only problem is getting the front speakers to form a 10 degree angle. I rewired my front speakers to acheive this angle and I was impressed. However, it's a nusience to move the speakers when switching from music to movies.

I have experimented with reverb but my inexperience only produced an echoing sound but no ambience. I've thought of using Audtion (formally Cool Edit Pro) and then feeding the file to the bidule. Again, I'm too inexperienced to work out the myriad of settings for the Reverb effect. Short of the ambiphonic method I've found the SAD5.1 method very satisfactory. I can hear solo instruments coming from the center speaker and I can locate sections of a symphonic orchestra. I agree with you that I still don't feel true ambience but I compared some of the bidules with a DVD of a live recording of Beethoven's 9th and I got some ambience but the soundscape wasn't that broad either. Someday, I'd like to sneak into Symphony Hall and record an impulse for convolution but I don't have the equipment.

That said, I'm looking forward to your bidule. Thanks for your contribution.

Scott
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Old 19th May 2004, 21:27   #437  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tantulus
Ursamtl:
Kempfand has a "true ambiphonics" with ambisonics for the surround. I found this method to truely broaden the sound with depth added by the rear speakers. The only problem is getting the front speakers to form a 10 degree angle. I rewired my front speakers to acheive this angle and I was impressed. However, it's a nusience to move the speakers when switching from music to movies.
What I think Kempfand has done is the same as me.
Most modern Amps have an A and B output for the front speakers.
Just put a second set of speakers on the B channel for Ambipole recordings. (10 deg.). Then just use remote to switch between music and movies.
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Old 21st May 2004, 00:48   #438  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tantulus
Ursamtl:

I have experimented with reverb but my inexperience only produced an echoing sound but no ambience....Someday, I'd like to sneak into Symphony Hall and record an impulse for convolution but I don't have the equipment.

Well hey, go to www.noisevault.com and check out the impulses there that are free to download. Load them into SIR and try it out. I haven't had the chance to play around much with this stuff yet, but the potential is amazing.

Quote:

That said, I'm looking forward to your bidule. Thanks for your contribution.
I haven't had time to put it all together yet. Last night when I sat down and looked at my bidule, I realized it was a messy mass of connections. It sounds good, but it looks like hell! I also realized that, although I did some initial experiments with encoding 5.1 files and burning to CD, most of my time has been spent monitoring the different bidules through a Soundblaster Live using the amazing kx drivers from www.kxproject.dom. I add a kx ASIO out device in plogue (15 channels available!) and then route them to the appropriate speakers using the kx DSP applet, which also has a similar modular connection setup.

Anyway, I'll clean up my bidule, add a 6-chan File Recorder in place of the kx ASIO outs and upload it on the weekend.
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Old 21st May 2004, 01:44   #439  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by specise_8472
What I think Kempfand has done is the same as me.
Most modern Amps have an A and B output for the front speakers.
Just put a second set of speakers on the B channel for Ambipole recordings. (10 deg.). Then just use remote to switch between music and movies.
This is exactly how I do it. It actually was specise_8472 who triggered the idea of doing it that way.

Quote:
Originally posted by ursamtl
Well hey, go to www.noisevault.com and check out the impulses there that are free to download. Load them into SIR and try it out. I haven't had the chance to play around much with this stuff yet, but the potential is amazing.
The readings and filters @ NoiseVault are TRUELY amazing, and it is so much fun to play with all these impulse responses.

Quote:
using the amazing kx drivers from www.kxproject.com
Didn't know this drivers, but am very keen to play with it. Thanks for hinting to this.

Kind regards,
Andreas
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Old 21st May 2004, 01:55   #440  |  Link
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Have just uploaded to the FTP server some new toys.
Daphy will put on Web server when he can.

It is a very good Mono to stereo conversion utility. And feeding the result into one of the above 2 to 5 methods produces astounding results. Better than I had hoped for. I myself personally use my Allinone process.

Uploaded are 5 groups to put in the group directory of Plogue.
And 1 VST .dll file. This file is just the same x-talk cancel that I posted a while ago. But all of these files are needed to make it work.

They are
allpass 44.bgrp
allpass 48.bgrp
mono to stereo 44.bgrp :edit
mono to stereo 48.bgrp :edit
x-talk.bgrp
x-talk 15.dll

USEAGE:
After everything installed, just drag the mono to stero 44 or 48 group onto the screen and input mono, output to stereo recorder. As simple as that. At the moment the group only uses the allpass 44.bgrp. I am now uploading two new groups to do inputs of 44.1 and 48.

EDIT: have just uploaded the new bgps as mono to stereo 44 and 48.
Just choose the right one to match your input frequency.

For those interested - it is basically feeding the mono signal through two banks of cascaded filters. Each bank is a 19 pole Allpass filter. Then feeding the resultant signals through my x-talk filter to produce better channel seperation.

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Last edited by specise_8472; 21st May 2004 at 02:15.
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