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View Poll Results: Do we keep rule 12 ?
Yes we want to keep rule 12 50 68.49%
No we don't want to keep rule 12 23 31.51%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19th December 2003, 18:18   #41  |  Link
Doom9
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You have to use the terms "junior" and "senior" in conjunction with having been around and carry some operational responsability. It takes spending a couple of evenings putting water on flamewars to make an impression on you.

And many people here haven't even been around prior to the establishment of rule12.. so how can you possibly judge if it would better without it? All the rules have been made in reaction to something that went wrong, but no matter how many times I repeat that, there are always people who are unwilling to understand that simple fact.

Nobody has ever been given a strike for reporting his impressions / opinions on a tool as long as the post was not in violation of any of our other rules.
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Old 19th December 2003, 21:10   #42  |  Link
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What makes you think I haven't been around prior to the establishment of rule 12? The date that I decided to sign up so I can respond to threads bears no resemblance whatsoever to when I started using this forum.

Anyway, people can always use the www.dvdrhelp.com forums if they don't want to be looked down on I suppose. Newbies are expected to use the search functions there too, but at least they're not prevented from asking fundamental questions when they want the advice of experienced users.

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Old 19th December 2003, 21:43   #43  |  Link
MackemX
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I did write a post earlier but forgot to post it, and most of what I wrote has now been said so I won't bother posting mine

I just can't understand all the fuss anyway as people are talking rule #12 far too seriously

pepipocpoc last post is a very good point

the bottom line is that rule #12 will hopefully stop people posting lazy posts asking to be spoon fed or asking for their bottom to be wiped when the answer is only a few threads away

@IvIark, you mention dvdrhelp and not being looked down upon, do you want me to link to some looking down posts?. It's a great forum and I often post there but sometimes people can be annoying when they start newbie bashing

my doubts are beginning to grow

the 'best' question you could ask is "what's the 'best' thread in this forum?"

p.s. please don't strike me as I've read over 10,000 posts and I'm still undecided so I thought I'd ask for help

Last edited by MackemX; 19th December 2003 at 21:45.
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:09   #44  |  Link
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Quote:
@IvIark, you mention dvdrhelp and not being looked down upon, do you want me to link to some looking down posts?. It's a great forum and I often post there but sometimes people can be annoying when they start newbie bashing
No not really. I could point you towards a few posts on Doom9 where some of the members who in this thread seem to look down on "what's best" questions about one-click backup solutions, seem quite happy to answer questions on whether CCE is better than TMPGEnc, or whether AVISynth is better than VirtualDub, or one capture card is better than another, or even if a DVD Stripper/Menu Edit combo is better than everything else on the whole planet for removing titles. All these things are also completely open to interpretation and yet somehow more acceptable.

The point is that although I'm sure there are posts you can point me towards, it's pretty irrelevant. Yes you'll find posts saying "have you used the search funtion", but there is no general rule banning the questions and so people who have used the search funtion but still feel they need help don't have to put up with muscle-flexing because they'll be people who are willing to help.

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Old 19th December 2003, 22:19   #45  |  Link
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@IvIark

Quote:
Originally posted by IvIark
I could point you towards a few posts on Doom9 where some of the members who in this thread seem to look down on "what's best" questions about one-click backup solutions, seem quite happy to answer questions on whether CCE is better than TMPGEnc, or whether AVISynth is better than VirtualDub, or one capture card is better than another, or even if a DVD Stripper/Menu Edit combo is better than everything else on the whole planet for removing titles. All these things are also completely open to interpretation and yet somehow more acceptable.
Asking if X is better than Y is very different than "What's the best". Here's a post from Doom9 again on this matter.
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Last edited by 2COOL; 19th December 2003 at 22:22.
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:24   #46  |  Link
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Asking if X is better than Y is very different than "What's the best". Here's a post from Doom9 again on this matter.
Yes I agree with you entirely, that's the very point I made. Look at the first post on page 2 here
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:28   #47  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by IvIark
The point is that although I'm sure there are posts you can point me towards, it's pretty irrelevant. Yes you'll find posts saying "have you used the search funtion", but there is no general rule banning the questions and so people who have used the search funtion but still feel they need help don't have to put up with muscle-flexing because they'll be people who are willing to help.

Mark
my point is you can spot if they have used the search button or read the rules just by what they post

on most occasions people will actually say they have searched when they have as frustration get's the better of them and then they will often get a reply

it's the usual lazy posts that the rule is trying to eliminate but you just wanna put all the 'whats best' questions into one group which is far from it

basically you are just making a mountain out of a mole hill and all the best to you

no matter what subject is asked about, you will always get someone offering their opinion and this often leads to disagreements and childish flaming and not sensible debates as to which is best, though there have been a few good threads when the 'sucks' and 'rocks' posters don't add their informative opinions with the one word

the bottom line is nothing is 'best' as everyone has different opinions and requirements. The art is deciding yourself what's best for you and the old lazy popular favourite question of 'what produces the best quality?' and no other info can simple be answered with 'try it yourself as you should really make your own mind up as there are trials available'. This is what I now reply as do a few others as it's 'best' the user does decide about the quality issue for themselves don't you agree?. So isn't this the 'best' answer?

is this what you call 'looking down upon'?

if they say they have tried all the trials and can't make up their mind then I would help by offering some advice on how they can compare for themselves etc
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:29   #48  |  Link
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@IvIark

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Originally posted by IvIark
Instead of arguing about it, why doesn't someone do a Sticky FAQ on what advantages each product has and point newcomers to that in future?
I posted this on the 1st page but I don't see it becoming reality in the near future.

Quote:
Originally posted by 2COOL
To cut down on "what best", I think someone should come up with a "One click DVD backup solutions" matrix like the Authoring program feature matrix done here in Doom9 and make it a sticky.
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:35   #49  |  Link
snidely
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1

Sure, there have been a few differing opinions, but hardly anything I would label as a "flame war", and this thread goes on as we speak.
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Old 19th December 2003, 22:57   #50  |  Link
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@snidely, look at the first reply

Quote:
I suggest you do a search on this subject and you will find LOTS of info, including polls.

BTW: My personal favorite is TT, hands down!!
look at brickie's reply
Quote:
i'll say zoomplayer with sonic filters...same as theatertek..but really it's up to what YOUR eyes tell you right...
same old, same old I guess

but the guys original post had some info worthy of a good discussion. If he's just asked 'What's the best dvd software available? Powerdvd, Windvd, or Theatertek' in his actual post with nothing else then that's a totally different post
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Old 19th December 2003, 23:09   #51  |  Link
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Mackem, the point is that we have no need to kick him in the nuts just for asking a newbie question, regardless of how the question gets addressed.

And if you continue reading, several people have offered their opinions, along with reasons for them, and then minor scuffles even ensue, but once again, hardly anything I would call a flamefest. I even learned something new about a couple of features in PowerDVD, a program which I abandoned a long time ago

I understand the problem that exists here, but censorship is not the answer. It only serves to sweep it under the rug and at the same time alienate newbies.

Gee, I was willing to just let this issue die a week ago, but I couldn't just leave IvIark to the wolves.
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Old 19th December 2003, 23:23   #52  |  Link
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no matter what subject is asked about, you will always get someone offering their opinion and this often leads to disagreements and childish flaming and not sensible debates as to which is best
Welcome to internet forums! As has been said before, everyone has an opinion, it's then up to the newbie to separate the wheat from the chaff as he sees fit.

Quote:
The art is deciding yourself what's best for you
Yes we've already established that, and what encoder, or DVD writer is best for you etc etc. That doesn't mean that asking for considered opinions is somehow superfluous.

Quote:
This is what I now reply as do a few others as it's 'best' the user does decide about the quality issue for themselves don't you agree?. So isn't this the 'best' answer?
No, the best answer is to say exactly what is asked of you. If I was asked then I'd say what my opinion was and for what reasons. If my opinion doesn't match up with other peoples then that's just too bad. No one's asking for you to answer the $64000 question, just say what you think and I for one will always be happy to do that.

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Old 19th December 2003, 23:25   #53  |  Link
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I posted this on the 1st page but I don't see it becoming reality in the near future.
I agree with you 100%, that would stop this thread dead in its tracks.

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Old 19th December 2003, 23:26   #54  |  Link
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Gee, I was willing to just let this issue die a week ago, but I couldn't just leave IvIark to the wolves.
Me too and then someone with 96 posts starts again with a comment considerably more boring that being asked "what's best".

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Old 20th December 2003, 00:08   #55  |  Link
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I guess you two still don't get it or just enjoy flogging the dead horse

what is wrong with telling a newbie to go search or try it for themselves when they post a less than informative 'what's best' thread?

I'd rather see less of these threads personally as it just shows how lazy some people are when the answer is a few threads down

even a sticky wouldn't stop this thread dead in it's tracks as people will still post 'what's best' regardless and instead of pointing them to rule #12

people are sometimes just too lazy and instead of quoting rule#12 you would just end up pointing the lazy person to the top thread called 'THE BEST OF EVERYTHING' in the forum instead
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Old 20th December 2003, 00:26   #56  |  Link
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You could be right, maybe I just don't get it. You see I'm more than happy to simply help people even if that only means pointing them in the right direction to where the topic has been covered before. I find that gives a much greater sense of well-being than finding excuses not to - maybe your time is more valuable than mine, I just don't know.

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Old 20th December 2003, 00:48   #57  |  Link
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Yeah, me too. I guess I'm just really dense. Or maybe its just because us old geezers (I'm getting ready to turn 50 years) get really ornery when we don't have that can of Ensure before sipping lunch through a straw.

I own a dry cleaning/laudromat business, and just today a lady walked up to me and asked "Which laudry soap is the best?" I replied, "You stupid bitch! Can't you read?" and I pointed her to a sign on the wall that said, "Don't ask us which soap is best. Cleanliness is a personal matter and only you can decide which soap works best for you. If you ask such a question in here, after three times you will be thrown out on your butt." Well, needless to say, after that I had made a friend for life, as well as gained a happy customer.

For the second time....I give up!

Last edited by snidely; 20th December 2003 at 00:57.
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Old 20th December 2003, 00:56   #58  |  Link
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A few selected examples (you can even find them on this very board) are hardly representative. It is your right to disagree but I both have the numbers, and the experience on my side.

I realize we set the bar pretty high for newcomers but that derives directly from my 4+ years of forum experience in this very area. This is clearly by far the best community I have been and am a member of, and I'm 110% convinced that this is because we set the bar so high. Every now and then I'm confronted with a "you just lost a potential member due to your rules, signup procedure, etc.". But then again, why is there an unusual amount of knowledgeable people on this board? There must be a reason, and when it comes to my person and a few others I know rather well that reason is because we do have all those rules and regulations (that nobody enjoys enforcing except in very few extreme cases) to encourage people to become active, to learn to help themselves, upon which they will be able to make a useful contribution to this community.

Many of those knowledgeable members have also once upon a time been newbies, and yet have managed to become knowledgeable in a climate you're trying very hard to make look like extremely hostile to outsiders. Heck, this community even turned out an amazing amount of useful tools, often leading in their sector. So, we might have the strictest ruleset, but common logic would lead you to deduce that this and the amount of knowledge are in a way connected. In school, you can also not ask your teacher for the solutions to your homework, you have to make an effort on your own, and our so hated rules try to achieve the same thing. A community cannot work without a ruleset, and while there are other boards that aren't as strict, I'd rather be here because I think in the end we're more productive.
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Old 20th December 2003, 01:25   #59  |  Link
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here's a nice example

what's the 'best' forum?, roflmao

@snidely, if you told the girl about the sign (I don't know where you got the stupid bitch bit from . ) then maybe she will then add she is allergic to certain detergents or cannot afford the more expensive ones or she simply doesn't like the smell. I could list more examples of what she could say but I guess most will see what I'm getting at I mean, there's quite a few soaps you can buy anyway but why doesn't she say that in the first place. I would! and most sensible people would too as I know I'd get my answer a lot quicker by limiting the responses I can get by supplying a little info

if you don't point her to the sign and get her to help you to help her then you would just end up asking her numerous questions instead until you eventually find one that suited her!, but how many questions could it take? I'm sure she wouldn't ask the basic question again if you did point her to the sign as she would soon see the reason why it's there in the first place. Basically to cut all the BS before she gets her final answer. This is just the same as the car thing earlier but on a smaller scale

look at it from a newbies point of view. Which would you prefer as a newbie? Answers related to your requirements you posted or reading posts that say this and that sucks or rocks without any real facts to show why?

let's look at the rule again

telling people not to post 'what's best?' is that there are often so many answers that could be given and it's a matter of individual opinion and therefore some answers will just be wasting cyberspace

if the user gives just that little bit of extra info then they will get a better response as people have more to work with. This will produce replies without all the crap you normally see in a what's best thread and probably quicker also

isn't this a better thing for a forum to contain more informative threads that don't contain all the usual crap? It makes it a more efficient place to learn about stuff as there will be more info than useless posts which Doom9 is all about. That's a better place for a newbie to be if they are looking for info as it's a pain searching through all the crap!

just look at this thread, what info does it contain?. Nothing worthy really, just some people wanting to diss rule#12 for some strange reason

Last edited by MackemX; 20th December 2003 at 02:32.
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Old 20th December 2003, 12:17   #60  |  Link
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Well it's 72.4% in favour of keeping rule 12 so can we just please close this thread now?

Please, please, please.

I see the argument from both sides and I voted yes to keeping it. Why? Because it's all about being sensible in this area at the end of the day and I'm sure that can happen.
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