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Old 15th October 2003, 17:01   #21  |  Link
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forgot something...

I actually forgot a line:
"Part 3 and 4 of this movie are due to summer 2004 and 2005, if commercially successful we will consider parts 5 and 6 for the following years. Please support the production of these movies by ripping out your shift-keys immediately!"
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Old 16th October 2003, 03:54   #22  |  Link
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A logic based system may work if the user ripped the whole DVD but left stuff out. It wouldn't work if someone were to re-author the DVD or to shrink the DVD including all the extras + audio.

With the recent announcement about dual layer recordable media I forsee a future where someone wanting a copy of a movie would simply rip an image and burn it.....programs like DVD2One and DVD Shrink would become historical curiosities.

The DVD industry I think will resign to the fact that IP security on DVD Video titles is very weak and there isn't much that can be done about it. The consequences are that DVD's will either ship with 'Value added' features to entice people to make a legitimate purchase or an attempt will be made to cripple the disc in some fashion......hopfully the former will prevail.

Blueray, while an exciting technology, has come too quickly to be the next media format. Most people I know are only just getting into the DVD scene and I feel that many will be reluctant to turf their DVD player just to have the next format. However, when Blueray players are intorduced, there will be a lot of thought put into methods of securing the data contained on the disc.....however as the saying goes "If I can see it, I can copy it". I'll give the format a month or two before the security is cracked somehow
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Old 16th October 2003, 11:09   #23  |  Link
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Yeah, but...

That you can copy everything you can see is correct of course...
But that doesn't necessarily mean that you can make digital copies of it, and that is the problem...
One approach of making copying unattractive is to "close the analogue hole", you can not even copy to VHS then.

Maybe THEY will in a not so far future only build and support standalone players with IEEE.1394 (firewire) output, that is heavily encrypted, only works for one TV (includes some authentification mechanism like PGP or something) and so on...
You can of course copy that by filming it from your TV, but the quality will suck of course.
And the real problem is, that they only have to include the most simple form of copy protection, and you are not allowed to investigate into, build, talk about, think about, hear about or tell anyone about tools that could eventually break this protection in europe and in the USA.
Of course there will be gifted and dedicated people who will find a way to make digital copying possible, but it probably will be very hard, and take much longer than breaking CSS did (they probably won't allow software DVD players for the next format, and when, only with authentification over the internet).

And the thing about digital watermarking is not that they can find out who made the copy, but if they search one's house for whatever reason they make up, and find a DVD which has a few copies distributed around the net, this person is really f*cked...
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Old 16th October 2003, 13:44   #24  |  Link
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In the future, there will be more and more display devices that accept digital video signals. I'm not really sure, but i think that even now composite video signals (tho one that carries red/green/blue connectors) carries digital video data. If there is digital video data that goes from one equipment to a digital capable display device, like a plasma TV or the like, you could intercept it and record it. Much like you can with the digital audio data from an optical out connector of a DVD standalone or from the S/PDIF. And this without limitation of resolution/format. You could then recompress in another format of your choice. And the watermarking could not stand the compression and go lost... (i dont think there is some watermarking technique that can undergo some heavy filtering/compression/adjusting,cropping/resizing and still be there) and i dont think that no one will be able to remove it and solve the problem. And what about HDTV streams from sat TV? I can record it because of the time-shifting right I have, and I can get a recording from a friend because maybe I had not time to record it myself, so I can have legally a copy of whatever goes on air without any limitation in a digital format that sooner or later will be better than DVD quality (the same i think is for digital radio). So, as I said before, all non-interactive digital entertainment products ARE PUBLIC DOMAIN de facto, at least the moment they go on air. Well, at least is my humble opinion.

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Old 16th October 2003, 14:12   #25  |  Link
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If fire wire etc did come in to effect , there will be ways to defeat the copy protection , like the government today who wants to find the information in a pgp encrypted document , they don't set about cracking the file. They monitor emails, and try and guess the keys rather than cracking the encryption. I can't see why some one could not just pair the video device with a "box" which then instead of outputting to the screen would output to another device? Also the water marking company that is bring new video water marking out (see doom9 news) says that due to the basis of the water marking, heavy compression / filtering / adjusting will not effect it http://www.verance.com/technology/index.html . Still i think there still is hope!

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Old 16th October 2003, 14:43   #26  |  Link
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possible but hard

I agree that it still will be possible, but it will be extremely hard, and will take more time then cracking CSS did.
And something like a box to descramble the signal would be illegal, IIRC even some macrovision-removing devices have been declared illegal lately.
What I'm afraid of is for example a pair of key-cards which are handed out for every household, one for your standalone and one for your TV, and the key-card, once inserted into the devices, trigger some mechanism that blocks the devices forever for other key-cards.
Than the signal is encrypted by the key on the one keycard, and decrypted by the other keycard.
And THEY would just had to patent every algorithm usable for that cards, and you would not be able to develop custom cards (which would be illegal anyways). Maybe I'm getting a little too paranoid here, maybe not...
Of course everything is crackable, but not by every person, and if they find ways to restrict the information about mechanisms to break that protection, then the great majority of us won't be able to make use of it.
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Old 17th October 2003, 02:50   #27  |  Link
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In the last we can hack de TV for optain a unencripted signal, this isnīt very dificult and in reality is more dificult to prevent it. For the video watermarking exist one metode, I saw this metode in a photoshop pluging, they only read the watermark, process de image to make a image with only the watermark and delete de watermark using this image for removes it.

Last edited by Phanton_13; 17th October 2003 at 03:15.
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Old 17th October 2003, 19:24   #28  |  Link
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Re: Yeah, but...

Originally posted by ultimatebilly

Maybe THEY will in a not so far future only build and support standalone players with IEEE.1394 (firewire) output, that is heavily encrypted, only works for one TV (includes some authentification mechanism like PGP or something) and so on...

DigitalVHS already does this - Tapes/Disks are encrypted, and only in conjunction with a HDTV can they be played. The TV has the decryption code built into it. And some pretty advanced handshaking tales place before playing.

To me FADE is like the NETFLICK format. Every DVD/CD degrades as it is read. All you do is change the dye to degrade as the laser reads it. Very useful for Rental shops - don't bother taking the movie back, as it will crap out within 3-4 plays.

If the protection is in the Command Sequence Programming then IFO Edit should take care of that. Of course they could add new commands (Similar protection to Games AKA bad sectors etc) and then force punters to buy new players that support these new commands - or they do not play everything in old players. (Then again, a BIOS update from player makers should add the new codes). I would see the MPAA supporting this as it is win win for them. People buy the new players (MPAA gets royalties on these as they licensed the code), or people go to the pictures to see movie (They still win), or people wait for TV viewing (with adverts - for the new players- inserted.)

Just my ideas.
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Old 17th October 2003, 19:38   #29  |  Link
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MPAA doesn't get royalties for players... MPEG-LA does...
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Old 22nd October 2003, 12:01   #30  |  Link
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But really if you can view/watch a movie you can pirate a movie, even with encryption etc, just means someone will hack a tv, and get an output just before its converted to analogue to be displayed

just my $0.02
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