Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > General > Audio encoding

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th July 2002, 21:40   #1  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Stereo to 5 channel Surround with Ambisonics : NEW METHOD !

removed

Last edited by Eye of Horus; 12th October 2004 at 18:44.
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 03:04   #2  |  Link
Sycho
This Is How It Goes
 
Sycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 235
can this new method be used with the equations from this page for better results on Dolby Surround material http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=60331
Sycho is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 08:15   #3  |  Link
bitsnbytes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 57
Curiosty bit me so I downloaded Besplit.
Using commandline


BeSplit -core( -input Gene.wav -prefix C:\channel -type wav -demux )

Rendered me 6 wav files named channels 1-6

but they were 44,100 so i resampled in cooledit to 48000.
44,100 would not play on my system

I have to say this was a guess but I went with this:

channel 1 = Front Left
channel 2 = Center
Channel 3 = Front Right
Channel 4 = Surround Left
Channel 5 = Surround Right
Channel 6 = LFE -empty
Its late at night so I wasnt able to fully test
or the wife would be pissed heh

but all speakers seemed to render a audible level
equal to each other.

further test tomarrow.

Oh yeah if my channel mapping is wrong please post

Thanks
bitsnbytes is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 10:41   #4  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
@ bitsnbytes:

If you use BeSplit, be aware that the audio is not normalized, so you have to turn up the volume. But in principle, it should not matter

Using BeSplit is fine (do it also sometimes), but the correct channel ordering for this method (i.e. the Pentagon-rig with Emigrator) is as follows:

channel 1 = Center
channel 2 = Front Left
Channel 3 = Surround Left
Channel 4 = Surround Right
Channel 5 = Front Right
Channel 6 = LFE -empty

Andreas
kempfand is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 15:48   #5  |  Link
downloada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 64
hi,

i found a way to get an lfe-channel out of the 5 channels generated by emigrator. while searching for freeware vst-plugins, i found a filter called "HNM_filter". it is a low-, band and high-pass-filter.
download it here.

i integrated it into the processing chain as shown on this picture. as it is only a 1-channel-filter, you need 5 instances in our case.

i saved the settings to a file which you can get here. if it doesn't work for you, here are the values you need to fill in, from top to bottom:
filter: 0.000
cutoff: 0.023 (kind of a weird value, but the statusbar tells me that it means 81Hz)
resonance:0.500 (the standard value)
slope: 0.000
inamp: 0.500
outamp: 0.500
but you can just load the file i give you ("load preset" in the options of the filter), but you have to load it for EVERY instance of the filter. of course you can change the cutoff-frequency and experiment with the other values (but i don't know what they exactly do, the readme is kind of "short"). also i don't know what the second output-pin does, i have to test that.

another suggestion: couldn't we just rearrange the links between the output of emigrator and the input of the recorder so that besweet demuxes them with the correct names?

cu
downloada is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 17:31   #6  |  Link
downloada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 64
hi,

i couldn't do a real comparison between the result with and without lfe, but the short test i did sounded promising, so i thought i'd share my discovery with others so they can test for themselves.

about the lfe-frequency: AFAIR 120hz is the THX-guideline but a 120hz-lfe has got too much middletone-frequencies in it. and who cares for thx anyways? it's after all a specification for movie-playback, that's why thx-speakers aren't the best at playing music. if i had bigger speakers, i would set the cutoff even lower, like 40hz or 30hz so that only the real deep bass is being played on the sub. but i think that's a matter of taste. and my receiver doesn't create an lfe on multichannel-input (only if i let it downmix it to stereo and then use pl2, but that would be non-sense), so this is the only way i can get bass on my system.

edit: i almost forgot: thanks for the great guide, it makes the whole thing so much easier and gives great results!

cu

Last edited by downloada; 30th August 2003 at 17:47.
downloada is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 19:22   #7  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
downloada: Thanks also from my side for the LEF-option. Although I have no LFE, we thought about adding it to the method.

However, there are a few reports already on the topic which advise not to use LFE on decoded b-files (= 'Ambisonic' files).

I'm not saying that results will be bad, and I'm keen to learn about your judgement after you compared the 'without vs with', I'm just saying 'careful'.

Also, none of the First and Second Order Ambisonic Decoding Equations suggest a LFE.

As said: We are very keen to learn how it compares.

Kind regards,

Andreas
kempfand is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 20:19   #8  |  Link
KpeX
Registered User
 
KpeX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Great Lakes, USA
Posts: 1,433
@Andreas and EoH

Thanks for your work.

1. Worked fine for me, I used the channel mapping as suggested in the first post of this thread by EoH, is that correct?

2. I might have missed this somewhere, but at what bit depth is the editing done?

3. Interesting fill effect. First impression is that it gives a very even, consistent channel mix across all channels. To me the major drawback is renaming those channels . I will definitely have to add an LFE channel for my musical taste; haven't experimented with that yet.

Cheers,
__________________
KpeX
Audio FAQs: General | BeSweet | SVCD/MP2 | MP3 | Vorbis | AC3 | DTS | AAC
Linux Audio/Video FAQ
KpeX is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 20:48   #9  |  Link
DSPguru
BeSweet Author
 
DSPguru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: On top of a supercompact cardinal
Posts: 3,506
BeSweet's naming convention is :
Channel 1->"FL"
Channel 2->"FR"
Channel 3->"C"
Channel 4->"LFE"
Channel 5->"SL"
Channel 6->"SR"


A. i can add another switch with different namings.
in the meantime, you can remap the channels in the graph, or simply make a nice batchfile that does the renamings.
B. what bug did you encouter with BeSweet v1.5 ?
v1.4 is good and stable, but i still want to know about v1.5 bugs.
C. i believe the guide should include info about using BeSweet for encoding that wave directly to dts. (kempfand ?)
D. how about publishing your "stereo2surround.bidule" ? wouldn't it save some precious time to other users ?

Last edited by DSPguru; 30th August 2003 at 21:53.
DSPguru is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 22:10   #10  |  Link
bitsnbytes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 57
Not Bad at all.

Just listned to jimmy wale out along the watchtower, with the addition of the 6th channel LFE set @ 60hz as my sub is set at that crossover. I made one small adjustment to the
http://home.wanadoo.nl/appyhappy/18.jpg
i moved the centre slider up about a 1/4 inch, and slid vol up to top. I used besweet to demux and upsample to 48000. and surcode to dts at 24/48. jimmy seemed to be singing from the center
as guitars seemed to wale out the lefts n rights.

The other method I use doesnt generate as much from the center.

questions:I thought one of the goals was to work in 32bit mode.. I take it besweet and besplit only handle 16 bit?
Is there a alternative?

The real bugger to watch is the bprocedit it seems to keep my fist dial setting but the third dial is always default to the left a bit.

volume is down from original is that the normalizing? would like to remove it.


OK lets Rock!

Last edited by bitsnbytes; 30th August 2003 at 22:24.
bitsnbytes is offline  
Old 30th August 2003, 22:42   #11  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
@ DSPGuru:

A.
Quote:
you can remap the channels in the graph
That is indeed the most easy & elegant solution Why didn't we think at that before Anyhow: Big thanks

B. BeSweet -core( -input In-6ch.wav -output Out_ -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max ) -ssrc( --rate 48000 )
For BeSweet v1.5b20, this produces garbled (clicking) mono-wav's on 2 XP machines I tested. Same EoH & bitsnbytes. It works for v1.4.

C. Will do, as soon as we understand better why above (B) command-line works only for BeSeet v1.4 for some of us.

D. I believe in learning by doing, but point taken


@ bitsnbytes & KpeX:

Doing the B-Proc/P-Pan/Emigrator steps @ 32 bits gives slightly better results in our ears, with an emphasis on 'slightly' (i.e. one has to really carefully listen, and know the piece well).

The Ambisonic-VST even work at 64 bit, and the author suggested to use the highest possible bit-resolution.

In order to keep the method 'workable', we thought the current 16-bit is a good start and avoids 1st going into an application or use tools such as SOX. I personally do it @ 32 bit.

Quote:
The real bugger to watch is the bprocedit it seems to keep my fist dial setting but the third dial is always default to the left a bit.
--> Watch out for upcoming versions of Bidule, which hopefully will fix that (i.e. settings are kept).

Kind regards,

Andreas

Last edited by kempfand; 31st August 2003 at 14:24.
kempfand is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 06:47   #12  |  Link
downloada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 64
hi,

i just got up, didn't do my listening comparison yet.
but i looked at the emigrator settings a little bit and i saw that there's a preset called "surround" which i think should be ideal for most users because it has the same speaker-arrangement as most home theaters have today.
i will definitely include that in my comparison but the problem is that i don't exactly know the channel-mapping of that preset. do the numbers near the speakers in emigrator represent the output-pins from left to right? then it would be easy.

cu
downloada is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 08:56   #13  |  Link
downloada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 64
hi,

ok, just compared the different settings. my test track was "trinity dream" from the matrix reloaded score mainly because it's rather short (1:56) but not too short and because i just had it ripped on my hdd

on my setup, the pentagon with lfe sounded best to my ears. it has a wide sound stage and the bass is as good as i thought. although i could get my receiver to create an lfe out of the 5.0-signal, it wasn't as good as the dedicated lfe.
you're right about the surround-rig, but it's always better to hear it with your own ears. it sounded sort of compressed and too small to me (i can't really express it in english as it isn't my native language either).

so, in the future i will use the guide with my lfe-addition and be happy with the results

cu
downloada is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 13:10   #14  |  Link
daphy
Miles Freak
 
daphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 652
Hi,

Iīve done so much testings and comparisons between the SAD5.1, Kpex and this method (->EOH whats the new name for this ) and for me ambisonic system wins the match
The addon of the LFE is definitivly a must have because itīs really the bass what misses.
Quote:
For those who want to save their time Iīve uploaded the complete VSTPlugins (the same as in the guide + lfe patch) in one file.
Start archiv and extract the files in the right folder (maybe you have to change the location from C:\Programme\... in C:\Program Files\... etc.)
The only thing left to do is to scan the VSTPlugins with Plogue Bidule and load the settings!!!
@ EOH

really fine work and even for newbies an essential recomondation
One question - is it possible to make Plogue Bidule faster? Now it works only in real time -> the CPU usages is less then ~12%
much more posibilities with those machines nowadays


CYA Daphy

Last edited by daphy; 17th March 2004 at 18:00.
daphy is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 14:12   #15  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
Quote:
whats the new name for this [method]
- Visual Ambisonics
- Hitchhiker's Guide to Ambisonics

Andreas
kempfand is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 17:39   #16  |  Link
Mug Funky
interlace this!
 
Mug Funky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise
Posts: 4,547
holy crap! eye of horus, you've given me something to do in idle moments... i love this stuff!

right now i'm listening to Portishead's "Humming" off 180g vinyl, routed through bidule and simultaneously outputting to a 5ch wav.

this is the awesomest thing since i got a 16 bit sound card in 1993!

thanks everyone who contributed... if i find some sweet settings, i'll let y'all know.
__________________
sucking the life out of your videos since 2004
Mug Funky is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 17:52   #17  |  Link
daphy
Miles Freak
 
daphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 652
Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi folks,

found a bug in this routine, donīt know exactly what program produces it:

after the besweet part you have single 6 wavs (I use the DTS transcoding into 44.1 khz). And sometimes, I donīt now why I got a clipping noise in each channel. First time I explored this problem to late while sitting in my favorit chair in front of my stereo - whooom

This noise only takes 1~2 seconds and then the normal sound starts - but it could be enough for your speakers - mine survived this attack (gladly)

Bug search:

I tried the new Besweet 1.5 B20 and the old 1.4 -> Iīm shure this canīt be the reason , also Surcode isnīt guilty because the 6 mono files already have this damage

last but not least it must be Bidule itself! Iīve got this error two times EOH shurely not, so maybe it depends on the lfe transcoding

Iīll do some more testing for finding the bug!

One thing I noticed last time I got this error the transcoding with Bidule hang at the beginning -> about one second after this it works normal...

As advise:

check at least one of the mono files with a WAV-editor like cool edit. If there is an error in this file at the beginning transcode it again.

CYA Daphy

Last edited by daphy; 16th January 2004 at 10:45.
daphy is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 18:35   #18  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
Quote:
Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I experienced this once, an it was at the very beginning (timeline) of the soundfile. Looks like your's also at the beginning of the track.

If it's in the beginning, a quick fix is to add the 'Sound Mapper' to the Bidule layout (see section 8: tipps & tricks), so you will instantly hear it during the 'transcode'.

My impression was that it had sth to do with the overall 'interplay' of the sound-drivers, sound-SW etc on the system, but this was just a guess.

Regards,

Andreas
kempfand is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 19:06   #19  |  Link
daphy
Miles Freak
 
daphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 652
thx for the suggestion

I added this profile to the layouts
(see the connections)
If this is the only problem - nevermind

Fine toy!
Iīm wondering to make a DVD instead of many CDs.
What format (WAV in 44.1 or 48 khz) are needed to make a Audio DVD on DTS?

CYA Daphy

Last edited by daphy; 17th March 2004 at 18:01.
daphy is offline  
Old 31st August 2003, 19:56   #20  |  Link
SallyDog
...
 
SallyDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 253
Re: Beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by daphy
Hi folks,

found a bug in this routine, donīt know exactly what program produces it:

after the besweet part you have single 6 wavs (I use the DTS transcoding into 44.1 khz). And sometimes, I donīt now why I got a clipping noise in each channel. First time I explored this problem to late while sitting in my favorit chair in front of my stereo - whooom

This noise only takes 1~2 seconds and then the normal sound starts - but it could be enough for your speakers - mine survived this attack (gladly)

Error.gif

Bug search:

I tried the new Besweet 1.5 B20 and the old 1.4 -> Iīm shure this canīt be the reason , also Surcode isnīt guilty because the 6 mono files already have this damage

last but not least it must be Bidule itself! Iīve got this error two times EOH shurely not, so maybe it depends on the lfe transcoding

Iīll do some more testing for finding the bug!

One thing I noticed last time I got this error the transcoding with Bidule hang at the beginning -> about one second after this it works normal...

As advise:

check at least one of the mono files with a WAV-editor like cool edit. If there is an error in this file at the beginning transcode it again.

CYA Daphy

I had the same problem, was driving me nuts. Then I realized that Bidule was not maintaining the "stereo2surround" default setting. I solved the problem by making sure to load the "S2S" setting at the beginning of each session. Only takes an extra 2 seconds. Maybe this is causing your problem too.

SallyDog
SallyDog is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.