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Old 2nd July 2003, 22:18   #201  |  Link
tylo
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The original Robshot pages are nowhere to be found. Fortunately, the doom9 DVD encoding guides includes the essense of these long gone pages.

However, the basis for the D2SRoBa plugin is here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41033

The above thread refers to two methods:
- 2passRoBa: This is the original RoBa method. The D2SRoBa plugin uses these ideas only for estimating automatically the number of CDs needed, given a Worst Q.

- 1passBach: This is the OPV Bach algorithm for estimation of optimal Q (with binary search) for filling the last CD. D2SRoBa uses this algorithm.

(EDIT) I have uploaded D2SRoBa v2.4.1
News:
- Added num GOPs in the '1-pass VBR RoBa' group: possible to make longer 'scenes' (more realistic) in sample mpv's created.
- Speedy startup
- Fixes small quirks
- More debug info
- (EDIT) Added batch support for the GOPs value (v2.4.1)

@Byteshark: This is clearly a configuration specific error. Please post or PM me logs with the new (upcoming) version.

Last edited by tylo; 3rd July 2003 at 14:42.
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Old 3rd July 2003, 00:37   #202  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by tylo
News:
- Added num GOPs in the '1-pass VBR RoBa' group: possible to make longer 'scenes' (more realistic) in sample mpv's created.
Tylo,

The error in prediction I was getting (measured as unused space on the last CD) without this feature was 2%-4%. (With default tweak 0.8, no gambling )

I just used GOPs=6 (about 3 secs.) and precision improved 1% without additional test time.

Keep it up!
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Old 3rd July 2003, 21:40   #203  |  Link
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2.4.1 log

Useing D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - is this enough debug info? As you can see it chose a Q of 1.

========================================================
D2Sroba - DVD2SVCD with Robshot/Bach's method, by tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-03 07:32:45
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames)
- Audio size (mp2) : 78224000. bytes
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Est. CD user data : (800 - 5) * 1024 * 1024 - 380000
- Est. target mpv sz : (833237920. * 2) / 1.0235 - (78224000. + 0)
--------------------------------------------------------
Results:
- Est. CD user data : 833237920.
- Use number of CDs : 2
- Est. target mpv sz : 1549988839. (2535 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
Find Q for mpv file:
- Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32 / 1480 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16 / 2293 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8 / 2473 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4 / 2480 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2 / 2481 kbps)
- Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1 / 2483 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q = (1 + 1.0 - #Infinity somewhere! - 1.3) = #Syntax error!
- Selected Q factor : Q=0
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Recover
- 2003-07-03 07:43:12
--------------------------------------------------------
Replacing values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 32 ==> 0
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2535
--------------------------------------------------------
- Actual mpv file size:
03/07/2003 07:44 AM 31457280 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv
--------------------------------------------------------
========================================================
D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo
OS Version: WIN_XP
--------------------------------------------------------
- DVD2SVCD Shutdown
- 2003-07-04 06:13:33
--------------------------------------------------------
Settings:
- CD size : 800
- Number of CD's : auto
- Worst Q. factor : 40
+ One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1
- Sample percentage : 2.0
- Sample GOPs : 1
- Adjust Q. : 0.8
+ Do credits bitrate tweak : 0
- Start time : 0:00:00
- Bitrate : 1000
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames, 25 fps)
- Audio size est : 78238080. bytes (128 + 0 kbps)
- CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000
- SelectRangeEvery : every 750, select 15 frames
- Num. sample frames : 2445
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- Estimated mpv size : 785131733. (Q=40, 1284 kbps, 15703020 sample sz)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 2
- Target mpv size : 1549974759. (2535 kbps)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Binary search for Q:
- Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32, 1480 kbps, 18098844 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16, 2293 kbps, 28036200 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8, 2473 kbps, 30241544 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4, 2480 kbps, 30324144 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2, 2481 kbps, 30334440 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1, 2483 kbps, 30359108 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Determined Q. : 1
--------------------------------------------------------
Replace values in ecl file:
- opv_q_factor : 1
- opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530
- vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2230
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-07-04 06:15:27
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Old 3rd July 2003, 22:06   #204  |  Link
Holomatrix
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Seems right. Your movie is only 81min. You only need to use one CD not two.
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Old 4th July 2003, 08:38   #205  |  Link
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The bitrate is just above max (2530). In this case, D2SRoBa, really should have swithced to CBR MAX automatically, instead of OPV Q=1. That is a planned feature .. sometime...

You could try selecting 1 CD: if you think the quality is OK, you can set Worst Q to the Q it uses, but Q's much above 40 is not recommended, IMO. (The bitrate for Q=40 is already only 1284 in this case).

Your previous error: "# AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable!" seems to be gone! The "#Infinity somewhere!" is also gone in 2.4.1

Last edited by tylo; 4th July 2003 at 08:42.
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Old 4th July 2003, 16:25   #206  |  Link
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Hi Tylo,

Some more room for improvement. Range mode (i.e. 1-2, 2-3, etc.) is supposed to give you information for you to make a choice, right? I just encoded Changing Lanes with 1-2. Excerpts from the log file:

Quote:
For CDs=1:
- Estimated mpv size : 719669686. (Q=22, 1012 kbps, 14489356 sample sz)
- Estimated mpv size : 736739281. (Q=21, 1036 kbps, 14833024 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Q Weight : (720865193. / 49.6688524590164 - 14489356) / (14833024 - 14489356)
- Adjust Q : (22 + 1.0 - 7.00372561122296e-002 - (1.6)) = 21.3299627438878
- Determined Q. : 21
For CDs=2:
- Estimated mpv size : 1282627188. (Q=1, 1804 kbps, 25823572 sample sz)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Determined Q. : 1
However, the select window shows:
Quote:
1: Q=21, BR=1014
2: Q=1, BR=2188
You can see that for Q=21 it shows a BR closer to that of Q=22, and for Q=1 it shows a BR equal to the target BR, which will not be reached in this case and that will give you a 68% filled second CD.

I think it would be more informational to show the propper obtainable BRs for the CD number in question, and to show also how much BR will be left unused in this case. The user might make then a decision to use that available BR to encode a second audio track or better audio quality, since the video quality could not be much improved.

Or, decide maybe to encode CBR to fill the CDs (even though it will not give you more quality, may speed up the encode a bit).

Regards,
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Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported!
Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC.
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Old 6th July 2003, 19:59   #207  |  Link
tylo
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Thanks r6d2,
I'm working on this right now. Also fixed a few bugs reported via PMs. I'll put up an intermediate version with bugfixes and correct bitrates reports. Then a version that also switches to CBR when appropriate + percentage fill of last CD. BTW: Good idea!
Cheers.

(EDIT): Uploaded v2.4.2: Bugfix release. Hope to release the new features before vacation is coming up next weekend.

Last edited by tylo; 6th July 2003 at 21:58.
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Old 7th July 2003, 01:05   #208  |  Link
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Still more room for improvement (and DVD2SVCD was right!)

Hi Tylo,

I've been using D2Sroba OPV lately and I still have a difficult time to get a full last CD. I've played with the tweak factor (gambling), with the number of GOPs, sample size, and every time I seem to find the right settings for a fully automated encode (that's what this is all about, isn't it? ), I get screwed by the next movie, which has some sort of different behaviour which has lead me to conclude that "standard" or "optimal" rules for prediction just suck.

I mostly used TMPGEnc before finding your plugin. Used ToK to do prediction. That program has 2 different algorithms to predict. They usually get good results, but you have to use big samples and at the end it's not worth it. You better go with 2Pass VBR at once to fill the CDs.

The same happens to me with D2Sroba. In some movies, D2Sroba overestimates the final BR by much (5%-10%), and on some movies, it underestimates too (very bad).

On the former case you just end up with a not filled last CD, which is not so bad after all given the time you saved by one pass + 2%*6 prediction phase (1.12 pass). But on the latter case, you end up with a too large last CD, which will not fit, or a small "next to last" which really sux: you lost all your encode time.

I tried to figure out why this happens, and I think I found it:

If you encode with an underestimated Q and set max=2530 (max by spec) you are telling CCE: "hey, fella, please feel free to use all the available BR range to keep the Q". And as prediction underestimated, the movie required more bits, so the final avg BR you expected is overrun.

I think that's why @DVD2SVCD passed avg.BR as max to CCE when doing OPV. That way he was pretty sure that CCE would not go beyond that, and thus the warning he gives that you will not get a last full CD!

And read my lips: You will not have BR overflow!

So, I think DVD2SVCD passing avg.BR as max to CCE OPV was not a flaw, it was a feature, and done on purpose!

On 3 out of 10 movies I do, prediction underestimates. Don't know why. I've not been able to find a pattern.

But don't panic. There may be a fix for this!

What about, once finding the Q by binary search (range 300-2530), you do another search for the max BR which will be needed for this movie in order not to overflow?

I don't know which method to use, linear interpolation, binary search, some testing must be done here.

Any opinions from the experts out there (@Bach, @Gerti, @DDogg, @RB, @DVD2SVCD, and others I may forget)?
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD.
FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion.
Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported!
Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC.
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Last edited by r6d2; 7th July 2003 at 01:08.
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Old 7th July 2003, 08:24   #209  |  Link
tylo
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Quote:
If you encode with an underestimated Q and set max=2530 (max by spec) you are telling CCE: "hey, fella, please feel free to use all the available BR range to keep the Q". And as prediction underestimated, the movie required more bits, so the final avg BR you expected is overrun.
I don't follow here, but I have a feeling this is wrong: Remember how the samples are generated: You pick 0.6 secs every 30 secs out of the movie (2%, 1 GOP). It all depends how representable the sum of these small cuts are for the whole movie. If it is representable, the final size will be close to the estimated size. The parameters settings (MAX bitrate etc.) are irrelevant - they are set equal during estimation and real encoding. Naturally, if the target bitrate is higher than MAX, you won't get a full last CD, but estimation/real size ratio is unaffected by that. Here we should warn that the last CD won't be filled (%), and switch to CBR MAX. (coming up).
Quote:
I think that's why @DVD2SVCD passed avg.BR as max to CCE when doing OPV. That way he was pretty sure that CCE would not go beyond that, and thus the warning he gives that you will not get a last full CD!
Nope. All of the above is wrong. OPV Max should be set to Max BR specified in d2s. However, if the target bitrate is higher than Max Avg., we should automatically switch to CBR. That way we also avoid the potensial problem with: Max - Max Avg. < 130. D2S' warning is general, and just state that OPV gives unpredictable sizes.

I think the best way to deal with underestimated Q's (resulting in too big last image), is to automatically reencode the movie with corrected Q (OPV), or use VAF file, and do second pass VBR with correct Avg. bitrate.
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Old 7th July 2003, 12:19   #210  |  Link
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There have been alot of good ways to try and guesstimate the final size of doing this one pass stuff but in my opinion there is no way to get exact estimates to fill the CD's all the time without doing sample after sample and ending up waisting more time doing that, then to just do a multi pass encode. The sample(s) choosen could be selected on the slow parts of the movie and miss the action so then would over-quesstimate the bitrate or visa-versa. With the speed PC's are able to encode now a days, I would just do the extra pass and be done with quesstimating headaches. My 2 cents
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Old 7th July 2003, 16:08   #211  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by tylo
I don't follow here, but I have a feeling this is wrong: Remember how the samples are generated: You pick 0.6 secs every 30 secs out of the movie (2%, 1 GOP). It all depends how representable the sum of these small cuts are for the whole movie. If it is representable, the final size will be close to the estimated size.
I've found that precision increases exponentially with sample size, converging to the actual movie BR at about 10%.

But small samples like 1% or 2% have a huge error, which probably is good enough to find the Nš of CDs to use, but not to guess the Q.
Quote:
The parameters settings (MAX bitrate etc.) are irrelevant - they are set equal during estimation and real encoding.
Tylo, please take the time to do a test yourself. You will find that max *is not* irrelevant in OPV.
BTW, you will find that min *is not* irrelevant either, and in fact it weights more than the Q in OPV mode!

Quote:
Naturally, if the target bitrate is higher than MAX, you won't get a full last CD, but estimation/real size ratio is unaffected by that. Here we should warn that the last CD won't be filled (%), and switch to CBR MAX. (coming up).
Good feature! But remember that CBR max won't give you a full last CD either. In this case it might be better to decrease the CD size in order to get equally sized CDs, much more comfortable to watch. Again, don't you just hate it when you have to change the last CD for just 12 minutes?

Also if you let the threshold to swith to CBR parametric, the user may set it to, for instance, 2200, and go CBR instead than MP VBR or OPV.

Quote:
Nope. All of the above is wrong.
Tylo, just try and see for yourself. You will be surprised. Also check the last chapter on the CCE 2.66 manual.
Quote:
I think the best way to deal with underestimated Q's (resulting in too big last image), is to automatically reencode the movie with corrected Q (OPV), or use VAF file, and do second pass VBR with correct Avg. bitrate. [/B]
Yes, but because of that, you rather end up going Multipass 1 + VAF at once, almost the same quality than OPV and predictable size and time. I.e., we miss the whole point on using D2Sroba OPV, as @Holomatrix and most users of prediction finally say!

Regards,
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD.
FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion.
Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported!
Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC.
Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion
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Last edited by r6d2; 7th July 2003 at 16:12.
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Old 7th July 2003, 17:26   #212  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
I.e., we miss the whole point on using D2Sroba OPV, as @Holomatrix and most users of prediction finally say!

Regards,
True, so since quick sampling OPV will never be, in my eys, very acurate, then yes, I would be one of thoes people that don't use that feature of D2Sroba but more so the bitrate tweaking for ending credit text, etc.. There's 3 cents @r62d, your costing me more money here just kiding. Hope you guys can get something 'pretty close' to acurate. Good luck
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Old 7th July 2003, 19:01   #213  |  Link
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Suggestion for Tylo-

Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs I have the status window stuck on top of my app and I can't move it.

ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly?
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Old 7th July 2003, 19:50   #214  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by telemike
Suggestion for Tylo-

Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs I have the status window stuck on top of my app and I can't move it.

ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly?
Sorry to intervene Tylo, I was already browsing the forum and thought I would just answer this, if that's alright telemike so for the first question, you can modify the status_x and status_y values in the D2Sroba.ini file to put the window where ever you want and to answer the second question, adjust the adjust Q value to increase the video file size. Alot of times the quesstimated Q is to low so you can tell D2Sroba to decrease the Q quesstimated by the adjust Q amount, so if you have 3 in the adjust Q value then when D2Sroba is finished calcutaing the Q value it will be decreased by 3.
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Old 7th July 2003, 20:34   #215  |  Link
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Thanks for the Q adjust info. Now it makes sense. I also think I understand the position of the status window, but can it made to be no always on top? I jsut want it disapear when I launch another app while ds3roba is running.
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Old 7th July 2003, 21:00   #216  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by telemike
Thanks for the Q adjust info. Now it makes sense. I also think I understand the position of the status window, but can it made to be no always on top? I jsut want it disapear when I launch another app while ds3roba is running.
I guess you cannot. If it really bothers you and you are using XP, you can set up a "Encoding" user to do your encodes, then switch back to your normal user to work. You can always go back to see how it's doing. Clean and simple.
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MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD.
FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion.
Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported!
Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC.
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Old 7th July 2003, 21:36   #217  |  Link
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Quote:
you can set up a "Encoding" user
Ahh! I will have to try that! That way, no one can turn off my enocode accidently either!
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Old 8th July 2003, 11:02   #218  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
I guess you cannot. If it really bothers you and you are using XP, you can set up a "Encoding" user to do your encodes, then switch back to your normal user to work. You can always go back to see how it's doing. Clean and simple.
Does that only work with XP? because in 2000 when you switch users, all open apps by that current user being logged off gets closed.
Thanks
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Old 8th July 2003, 11:46   #219  |  Link
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Quote:
Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs..
I was under the impression that it was dangerous to run other programs when AutoIt scripts (like D2SRoBa) were running. They expect windows to stay where they left them, and focussed windows to stay focussed. That's the reason for the warning about minimizing DVD2SVCD.

I think you run a risk of D2SRoBa suddenly writing "D2SROBA.ECL" or some such in your app

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Old 8th July 2003, 12:14   #220  |  Link
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We're getting there, but we must put more intelligence into the plugin, before it is the preferred way for everyone to make SVCDs. (even for the multipass fanatics).

I changed GOPs to SF Range (sample frame range). I am experimenting with using fewer frames than one GOP in the SelectRangeEvery, in order to get a lower "every" number with the same Sample %. That gives a better distribution of the samples (every 17 sec, with 2%), but makes awfull short cuts.

I've tried 4, 5, and 8 frames, and it seems 8 works quite well (instead of 15). You'll need to boost the Adjust Q a bit, but it should give more stable estimations. I have also figured out another way to safely cut down number of tests by 1-2 (from 6).

I'll throw out the version for you to play with when I got time.
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