Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th June 2003, 20:03   #21  |  Link
S_O
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany
Posts: 192
Quote:
But i still would like to see a DDshow player filter.....
At least there will be a parser filter, Milan (the author of ffdshow) is adding audio decoder at the moment to ffdshow, and he wants to create a parser, too. This parser will also be able to parse real media, because ffmpeg is able to read it. Unfortunately, only for Real Video 1 (H.263), Real Audio 1 (14.4) and Real Audio 2 (28.8) (Real Audio 3?) are free open-source decoders avaible, so most real media files will not be playable.
Maybe when the parser is finished someone else could create decoder filters for the other codecss using the DLLs from Helix.
How many different codecs does Real Media have? I know that there is Real Video 1, Real Video 2 and Real Video 3 and Real Video 9, but there must be somewhat in between, waht are the "G2" codecs for example? Are all codecs completly except RV1 (H.263) properitary? I know there are also two different Real Audio 8, "RA8" and "RA 8", "RA 8" is Atrac3. Is there a full list somewhere?

That is a other bad thing I hate in Real, could it be possible to separate all codecs, that bitrate setting and used codec is separated. Maybe in "Advanced Mode" and could it be possible to encode in _all_ codecs, not only the newest, maybe for compability with (very) old Real Players.
S_O is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2003, 20:44   #22  |  Link
31 Flavas
RV10 Nerd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 247
The Helix Producer GUI (made by Real) can backwards encode to G2 (RV7 AFAIK).

Why would you want to backwards encode to anything beyond that? If your audience doesn't have G2 capable players, tell them to get up to date.
31 Flavas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 02:15   #23  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
@S_O

Why would you want to encode in old format? RV9 is the best in RV serie. RP8 can play it too.
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 03:57   #24  |  Link
31 Flavas
RV10 Nerd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 247
Quote:
Originally posted by Sirber
@S_O

Why would you want to encode in old format? RV9 is the best in RV serie. RP8 can play it too.
Well, not all RP8's can autoupdate only the Windows versions can, AFAIK. And even still many Windows users may not allow RP8 to autoupdate, because they have told ZoneAlarm to not allow it internet access.

@S_O

RealProducer 8.5 may be able to back encode to RV5, possibly. I still don't know why you'd want to back encode that far. Tell your audience to update their freaking player
31 Flavas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 04:00   #25  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
the freeplayer link has been corrected. they had changed it such that without a certain field added to the URL it would re-direct to the default page, and my link did not include this field. However, it has now been changed back to not require this field.

http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=d9

[IE will still download via ActiveX control]

If this takes you to the "upsell" page after clicking on the download link for any platform, let me know and I will update.
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

Last edited by karl_lillevold; 12th July 2003 at 18:58.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 04:32   #26  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
@S_O:

RealVideo codecs listed by 4cc code:
rv10 : RealVideo 1.0 aka RealVideo 5
rv20 : RealVideo G2 and RealVideo G2+SVT
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9
I could explain the version numbering, but it would take a long time, and everybody would have lost interest by the end.

There are two different RealAudio 8 music codecs:
RealAudio "native" used for 96 kbps and below.
RealAudio ATRAC3 used for > 96 kbps.

There is also a list of voice codecs. For a complete list of audio codecs, please see
http://service.real.com/help/library...r/Producer.htm
Click on the "RealAudio Codec Reference" link in the left column.

Quote:
That is a other bad thing I hate in Real, could it be possible to separate all codecs, that bitrate setting and used codec is separated. Maybe in "Advanced Mode" and could it be possible to encode in _all_ codecs, not only the newest, maybe for compability with (very) old Real Players.
In the latest Producer it is possible to specify RVG2, RV8, or RV9. Considering the improvements in quality, we would prefer everyone use RV9 of course. I do believe it is possible to encode with multiple codecs at the same time. The Producer 9.2 job file now supports multiple outputs, where each output can have a different codec, for instance RV9 and MPEG-4. RV1.0 is no longer available, it became too hard to maintain all previous codecs.

Here is the spec for the upcoming Producer 9.2 and all its new features:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunit...ease/index.htm
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

Last edited by karl_lillevold; 20th June 2003 at 16:15.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 12:43   #27  |  Link
Sirber
retired developer
 
Sirber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,978
Quote:
Originally posted by karl_lillevold
@S_O:

RealVideo codecs listed by 4cc code:
rv10 : RealVideo 1.0
rv20 : RealVideo G2
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9
where is v3, v4, v5, v6 and v7? There is a suddent jump from 2 to 8
__________________
Detritus Software
Sirber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 13:23   #28  |  Link
avih
Capture, Deinterlace
 
avih's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Right there
Posts: 1,949
@karl.

Karl, i just wanted to say thank you for your involvment in our board, your very valuable contributions, and your calmness. i wish an MS guy (amir?) would hang out here and help people as much as you do, and also the DivX ppl started showing up lately (Darrius).

thank you again, and keep up the good work (but be carefull, we don't want u kicked out of REAL for making too 'liberal' posts )

cheers mate
avih.
__________________
E8400/P43, 4G, GTX260+, Win7-64.
Get Firefox. Get SmoothWheel Firefox extension.
avih is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 15:53   #29  |  Link
S_O
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany
Posts: 192
Quote:
rv10 : RealVideo 1.0
rv20 : RealVideo G2
rv30 : RealVideo 8
rv40 : RealVideo 9
Thank you very much! That is what I wanted to know, so there are not so many differnt video codecs as I thought.

But for the audio codecs I still donīt have a complete list, what I got now:

14_4: Real Audio 1? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
28_8: Real Audio 2? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
dnet: Real Audio 3? (open-source decoder avaible?!)
sipr: Voice Codec?
cook: Real Audio 8?
atrc: Atrac3
ralf: Real Audio Lossless Format
whrl: Real Multichannel Audio
vorbis: Vorbis

Which codecs are missing? What is wrong? Are all codecs with the identifier "cook" for example bitstream-compatible, or maybe only downward-compatible?
Here is a player, containing open-source decoder for Real Audio 1, 2 and 3: http://www.honeypot.net/audio/
What is the differnce Real Audio 1/2/3? Does they have different bitstreams, or the same codec at different bitrate?

Edit: Also found 14_4, 28_8 and dnet.

Last edited by S_O; 20th June 2003 at 17:53.
S_O is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 16:11   #30  |  Link
31 Flavas
RV10 Nerd
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 247
Quote:
Originally posted by Sirber
where is v3, v4, v5, v6 and v7? There is a suddent jump from 2 to 8
RealVideo started at version 5, AFAIK. Previously, Real only did streaming audio. Also, again AFAIK, there was no RV6, and G2 = RV7.
31 Flavas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 16:17   #31  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
actually, RealVideo 1.0, the first /video/ version was also known as RealVideo 5. RealVideo G2 and G2+SVT (Scalable Video Technology) were bitstream compatible, and you can also call them '6' and '7' but those version numbers were not really used much. Still, there are only 4 codec flavors, as listed above. See, I said it was a long story...

EDIT:
..and we plan on sticking with RV9 for a while, and continue to improve it, as can be seen from RV9-EHQ, which in terms of video quality per bitrate, or compression efficiency, outperforms even H.264.

more info on audio codecs shortly.
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

Last edited by karl_lillevold; 20th June 2003 at 16:39.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 17:37   #32  |  Link
Ramirez
Registered User
 
Ramirez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 371
@Karl
I'd like to read more about Helix Producer Activex control SDK (Paragraph-4, ActiveX Control Feature Specification .)
but the link seem to be dead (Error-404), can you please check it out?.

Thanks!
Ramirez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 17:43   #33  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
Audio codecs:
cook: RealAudio, partly named after developer (office next to mine)
atrc: ATRAC3
sipr: Sipro voice codec
ralf: RealAudio Lossless format (new in Producer 9.2 *)
whrl: RealAudio Multi-channel (new in Producer 9.2 *)
vorbis: indeed, true Vorbis, needs DLLs from Xiph

*)
Neither ralf nor whrl will play in existing players. whrl may change its 4cc code to cook, and be integrated in existing cook instead of residing in its own DLL.

All cook flavors are compatible, the different flavors are different bitrates.

RA 1/2/3 are all very different codecs, the bitstreams are different and are not compatible with each other or RA8.

@avih: thanks for your feedback and concern!

The only real criticism I have posted is against the player web trap, which really annoys me, and I am not going to take that back. There is enough advertising and upsell elsewhere, and passing along where to get a free player should not involve telling people "and then look for the little link in the upper right corner that says Free Player". It currently is a very nice player, with cool features, if people took the time to try it out, and an un-deserved bad reputation, that should not be tarnished by the initial impression of an offensive sales pitch page making it hard to get. The upcoming version is really nice, but can't say anything about that yet.

Fortunately the freeplayer link, which was broken for a while, now again works, without any un-necessary re-directions.
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.

Last edited by karl_lillevold; 21st June 2003 at 04:36.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2003, 18:56   #34  |  Link
slavickas
I'm Shpongled
 
slavickas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally posted by karl_lillevold
...
There are two different RealAudio 8 music codecs:
RealAudio "native" used for 96 kbps and below.
RealAudio ATRAC3 used for > 96 kbps.
...
[/url] [/B]
actually atrac has 66 and 94 kbps modes

btw are cook'ers being updated sometimes, or they remnais the same?

btw2 have anybody compared 96 cook vs 94 atrac? at lest for me atrac sounds better
slavickas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2003, 01:57   #35  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramirez
I'd like to read more about Helix Producer Activex control SDK (Paragraph-4, ActiveX Control Feature Specification)
but the link seem to be dead (Error-404), can you please check it out?.
Thanks for pointing this out. The link will be corrected, but in the meantime, here is the correct link:
https://helix-producer.helixcommunit...iveX/index.htm

I have not tried using this myself, but it is pretty useful, according to feedback that has passed me by.
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2003, 10:04   #36  |  Link
Ramirez
Registered User
 
Ramirez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 371
Thanks!
Ramirez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2003, 13:42   #37  |  Link
DaWolf
RV9 Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, Quebec, Rimouski
Posts: 37
Machine: Celereon 1.7 GHz, 384 MB RAM, Windows XP Pro

Player: Windows Media Player 6.4
Startup: 3.764
SVCD: 15.596 (* 6.104 after minimizing/restoring)
CPU: 26-35%


Player: Windows Media Player 9
Startup: 3.300
SVCD: 12.472
CPU: 26-33 %


Player: RealOne V2 (player only!)
Startup: 4.228
SVCD: 9.968
CPU: 25-35%


Player: WinDVD 3.0
Startup: 14.908
SVCD: 13.232 (* 7.076 after minimizing/restoring)
CPU: 33-47%

(*) you can reduce the memory load by minimizing and then restoring the player.

And of course there's a bunch of others to try.

On at least my system RealOne is not the resource hog it's made out to be. With 384 MB RAM to go around, on system startup usually 127 MB distributed among "stuff" I have enough here to not worry about 2 MB more or less. On my first Pentium-100 with 32KB RAM it would have mattered to me - not now.

WMP 6.4 and WinDVD actually seem to consume more RAM on my system unless I would minimize/restore them. I'm sure not many of us are in the habbit of doing so before watching a movie!

If I were aggresively opposed to the player I would simply not use it. But I have 90 GB of HD space in my system so I would just install it for the codecs and forget about it. Again, on my first Pentium-100 with 1 GB HD (ouch) it would have mattered, now it doesn't.

OK, I have to admit I'm a sucker for new "toys" although I do trash them if they don't live up to everyday demands. RealOne was a nice toy. During the Gulf War II I often would have the news in the player on top while browsing in the attached browser (@ Karl: now that thing produces way too much script errors...). I grew to like it and have *gasp* purchased the plus version. I use it daily and love it. I use the media library as well, having a quick overview of what goodies I have on my HD's. As a devoted Musicmatch Jukebox user it means a lot to me that it drew me away from that player (although I still use it to super-tag a bunch of MP3's).

Signing in for a player? I never notice it. I have a DSL connection and when I start the player, bang, there it is. The sign in feature is of course much more fun if you would have one of the premium content subscriptions. I had the 30 day free trial and it's damned handy to be at another computer at another location, sign in to a RealOne player and the player goes into Plus mode and you can reach your subscription content. (Of course I dropped out after the trial: premium content shouldn't just mean that you pay for it - it should mean it's good content that's worth 10 expensive US dollars a month!).

There are only a few programs that make it through an....uh... "extended" trial period. RealOne is one of the programs that got my vote by receiving my money. It joined ranks with WinRAR, Newsbin, Forte Agent and some other stuff.

I'm looking forward to V3 :-)

Ruud
__________________
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
DaWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2003, 21:26   #38  |  Link
S_O
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany
Posts: 192
After reading all this, I finnaly uninstalled Real Player 8 and installed RealOne 2 Gold. I must say, the player is better than I expected. I donīt like the design, but it loads faster than RP8 and donīt want you to register every start-up.

One thing, I downloaded this 8MB player and then, after intstalling it I wanted to play something: RealOne has to download additional sofware to play this media.

But at least it tells me what to download: DolbyNet(tm) Audio Codec. Now I know why the RealAudio 1/2/3 decoder has included liba52 (Dolby Digital Decoder). It seems that RealAudio 3 is simply a low bitrate version of AC3. But why cannot all codecs included in this 8MB installer? 100KB more or less doesnīt matter.
S_O is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2003, 03:51   #39  |  Link
karl_lillevold
Moderator
 
karl_lillevold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,584
@DaWolf: thanks for posting such detailed information and good feedback! R1P's In-Mem memory usage also drops significantly after a minimize/restore.. This must be a Win2K/XP thing.. Maybe it just swaps out pages not used for a while. Igor Arsenin's TaskInfo 2003 shows that the Total Memory use stays the same thoug, both for WMP and R1P, during the minimize/restore cycle.

@S_O: The big leap! Glad it turned out okay.
__________________
This information is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, grants no rights, and reflects my personal opinion.
karl_lillevold is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.