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Old 26th May 2003, 19:44   #1  |  Link
neo_sapien
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Enterprise in HD?

Do any of you get Enterprise in HDTV from your local UPN affiliates? I wonder if anyone in America gets it. I know that the Australians get it in 1080i, which makes perfect sense, because it's an American show .

My own local UPN affiliate does broadcast in HD, but they're transmitting at a strength of 500 watts (or is it 1.17 kilowatts?), which is like a walkie talkie, and so the signal is only received half a block away from the station.
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Old 27th May 2003, 03:27   #2  |  Link
trbarry
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I don't think it's broadcast in HDTV anywhere in the USA yet.

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Old 27th May 2003, 20:40   #3  |  Link
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@ neo_sapien,

Personally, I don't think it matters all that much anyways.
I mean, first of all, they JIMMY it's quality. Yes, JIMMY!!
They do something to it's "color space", and when you watch it on
TV, it's sort of sun-flared or smoke-chizzeled or something. I
can't begin to tell you how crazy I went through many times, in
trying to figure out of all my captures, this show just won't work
w/ me. Till I realized that they (between broadcasters and the
makers [guard watchers] of these shows) vandelize the quality to
maintain minimal copying or what-have-you.

That's in addition to the BITRATE techniques they employ on Satellite
streams. In short, they reduce the BITRATE, which in turn, lowers
the quality of the stream. As far as I understand it.

But, as far as ANY Star Trek showing (enterprise, voyager, ds9 and
next generation) all these shows are JIMMY'ed

So, I don't think it will look (benefit'wise) any better EVEN IF,
you opt for an HDTV or HD source for your Satellite. I think it
would be a waist in this respect. And, if they continue to plaugerize
our source w/ the above mentioned BITRATE technique, we are in for
more loss of quality.

Sorry, for the rant.., 3 years ago, the quality was outstanding, now,
its sucking worser as they add more channels.. and more channels..,
and more channels.. - thanks to BITRATE nonsense.

-vhelp
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Old 29th May 2003, 19:07   #4  |  Link
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I have yet to see a UPN H/PDTV feed that isn't an upconverted analog broadcast. My OTA broadcast is in 1080i and it's DEFINATELY not a pure digital source.
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Old 30th May 2003, 00:20   #5  |  Link
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It is up to the local station but some UPN stations are broadcasting the Paramount HD1 package. This means roughly one HDTV movie per month.

- Tom
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Old 31st May 2003, 00:49   #6  |  Link
neo_sapien
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Quote:
Originally posted by vhelp
@ neo_sapien,

Personally, I don't think it matters all that much anyways.
I mean, first of all, they JIMMY it's quality. Yes, JIMMY!!
They do something to it's "color space", and when you watch it on
TV, it's sort of sun-flared or smoke-chizzeled or something. I
can't begin to tell you how crazy I went through many times, in
trying to figure out of all my captures, this show just won't work
w/ me. Till I realized that they (between broadcasters and the
makers [guard watchers] of these shows) vandelize the quality to
maintain minimal copying or what-have-you.

That's in addition to the BITRATE techniques they employ on Satellite
streams. In short, they reduce the BITRATE, which in turn, lowers
the quality of the stream. As far as I understand it.

But, as far as ANY Star Trek showing (enterprise, voyager, ds9 and
next generation) all these shows are JIMMY'ed

So, I don't think it will look (benefit'wise) any better EVEN IF,
you opt for an HDTV or HD source for your Satellite. I think it
would be a waist in this respect. And, if they continue to plaugerize
our source w/ the above mentioned BITRATE technique, we are in for
more loss of quality.

Sorry, for the rant.., 3 years ago, the quality was outstanding, now,
its sucking worser as they add more channels.. and more channels..,
and more channels.. - thanks to BITRATE nonsense.

-vhelp
Are you referring to the lack of rich colors? For the last several years, everything in DS9, Voyager and Enterprise has looked like it was somehow colored drab grey. I always figured Paramount didn't have enough money to afford proper equipment, because I've seen that kind of lack of rich colors in broadcasts from 3rd world countries that make it back to the U.S. via the news, like Pyongyang's parade grounds (grey everywhere...very little color).

I've tried so many things to straighten out the color on recorded episodes of Enterprise, it drives me nuts. I'll be completely infuriated if Enterprise in HDTV is just a regular analog drab grey Enterprise that's been enlarged to 1080i.

I think that up in Canada and in the U.K. the colors are just right, though. If you've ever watched a cap of the episodes made by FTV which comes in VCD and is capped in Canada via satellite on Tuesday nights (C-Band satellite I think), you'll see rich blue colored uniforms.

You'd think that one of the most popular shows on TV would be allowed a quality method of distribution, at least. What really PISSES ME OFF is that they're giving other countries top quality, but the country of origin gets the quality equivalent of a palmjob from a shemale.
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Old 4th June 2003, 11:01   #7  |  Link
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I have to agree. Enterprise is one of the poorest looking shows on TV. The los angeles UPN affiliate broadcasts it at 720x480 with a super low bitrate of 4.1 mbps. To me it looks like a low quality encode from an analogue source. The picture is blurry and macroblocks can easily be seen. Its so bad, I've reverted to watching it on my 13" piece-o-S*** w/ rabbit ears because it looks better that way and beats the crap out of the UPN digital broadcast. KCOP please fix this dreadful quality before next season!!!

-dano
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Old 4th June 2003, 13:07   #8  |  Link
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How is the color, though?
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Old 5th June 2003, 01:50   #9  |  Link
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@ dano..

>> KCOP please fix this dreadful quality before next season!!!

They will not fix it!!
I believe that it's a conspericy. I believe that they don't want it
broadcasted at the maximum qality that they would "normaly" air it as..
thanks' in part to the $$$ 's that they are counting on. As you know
they are now selling the series on DVD. I've never actually purchased
a copy nor encoded any of the DVD's. But, Donald Graft had uploaded
a small tiny sample .VOB file (35mb) (encoding issues) and I got my
first taste at what to expect in quality. IMO, I found it very good.
Execpt for the issues w/ IVTC, thanks in part to the Progressive
frames mixed into the Film part, that they inserted (blue screen)
I found out why it was messing up the IVTC encoding. Anyways..

If they hadn't broadcasted ANY of the Star Trek shows (ds9/voy/ent etc)
then, don't expect them to EVER do so in others.

The ONE good thing about the ST Enterprise, is that they are airing it
with good Telecine process. And, as such, the final IVTC method of
Decomb.dll works perfetly. To date, I haven't found any issues what
so ever.

I admit, that ST Enterprise's color space is off. (part of the broad
casters "jimmy" system) And, you can see blocks from this process.
I usually refer to this as "chizel" or "solar flare" Another helper
to this effect is the low bitrate used in airing this show.
Mind you, other shows (non-star trek wise) follow this pattern too, but
not w/ the same level of "jimmy" as in above.. but it's there too.

Altering quality...
I would not recommend messing w/ the color on these shows. I have
found that in doing so, will throw the color space off the table at
times. Messing w/ color on these already reduced "color space" will
only result in poorer quality encodes. Belieave me. I've ben there
and done it. Even lowering the light levels and/or messng w/ the
contrast worsens the final quality.
I've also seen this form of "color" issue w/ DVD titles too. Check
out Red Planet.. this movie, if you mess w/ the colors on it,
will pretty much get you the same symtoms as w/ the tv shows above.
If you go to the "shower" scene, where they are standing and talking
and (just after v. kilmer enters those audo-door) and note how the color changes on the sides of the auto-door, you'll see what I mean.
So, best leave it as it is, and make the best of your encodes.
Instead:

* Consentrate on your IVTC (if you having issues, though, on ST E, you
...shouldn't have any issues w/)
* work w/ a "bitrate" method ie, CQ / CQ_VBR / 2Pass etc
* expore other tweaks and things in TMPG

@ neo_sapien..
As for those PAL region movies/tv shows.. they use a sligtely different
color space. Usually much better than NTSC world. If you want some
demo's of such, get you hands on a copy of The Matrix in PAL.
I could be wrong w/ this movie, but I did see a sample clip of a scene
I was working on and coudn't believe the quality difference of the
color space on that movie. I kept saying to myself, "why are PAL
using this color space, and not NTSC ?" - - not fair. But, the reason
has to do w/ all tech stuff, beyond my willingness to get into, here.

Thats it for now.
-vhelp
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Last edited by vhelp; 5th June 2003 at 01:54.
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Old 5th June 2003, 13:17   #10  |  Link
neo_sapien
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No, it's just that American versions have had their color spaces jimmied, and foreign versions haven't.

Quote:
As for those PAL region movies/tv shows.. they use a sligtely different
color space. Usually much better than NTSC world.
Canada is NTSC, and the color on their Enterprise episodes is FLAWLESS.
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Old 5th June 2003, 13:24   #11  |  Link
neo_sapien
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Quote:
Originally posted by dano
I have to agree. Enterprise is one of the poorest looking shows on TV. The los angeles UPN affiliate broadcasts it at 720x480 with a super low bitrate of 4.1 mbps. To me it looks like a low quality encode from an analogue source. The picture is blurry and macroblocks can easily be seen. Its so bad, I've reverted to watching it on my 13" piece-o-S*** w/ rabbit ears because it looks better that way and beats the crap out of the UPN digital broadcast. KCOP please fix this dreadful quality before next season!!!

-dano
Can I see a screenshot plz?
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Old 5th June 2003, 16:57   #12  |  Link
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I have never captured any of the Enterprise digital episodes so I haven't noticed the color problems.

But could it just be the BT709 issue? US HDTV is supposed to use BT709 color for HDTV but it's unclear whether that or BT601 is supposed to be used for upconverts.

You might try my conversion filter (Avisynth 2.5, YV12) at:

www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.zip

There is just a subtle difference between the two color scemes. See a side by side pic at:

www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.2.jpg

- Tom
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Old 5th June 2003, 21:36   #13  |  Link
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Part of the problem is that - while the live action scenes ARE filmed in 1080i the actual CGI is rendered at 480p

There was a comment on AVSforums about this. Someone was at a star trek event and rick berman showed the episode "Regeneration" (gret by the way) on a large screen.

He even commented that "well, the CGI was not meant for the big screen" and it looked terrible according to the people at the events.

The MPEG2 artifcats in chicago UPN rebroadcast of 1080i enterprise is horrible. The "ringing" and "crawling" on the walls is bad

undot()
unfilter (-20,-20)

work WONDERS!!!

SO does

YV12Reducedby2() to get my back to 960x540
Crop
undot ()
unfilter (-20,-20)

Compress ot WMV 1000kbit 2-pass VBR

Not bad for keeping around
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Old 6th June 2003, 00:06   #14  |  Link
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hi all.

@ trbarry and sjchmura..

I would love to try out some of those filter (in this case, w/ the
ST Enterprise shows) and I will, but as soon as I find another monitor
for my MAIN pc, which I use for most of my encodes.. and, I can finaly
put back this crummy old fart of a monitor (very bad color space on it)
to my 2nd pc, which I use mainily for my captures, using either my
ADVC-100 else my Osprey-210 or DC10+ cards. I can't wait to find an
new one this week (flat-screen i hope) Anyways..


@ anybody..
..got any ST Enterprise sample pics or clips (even better) for us to
verify that you all sufferng similar quality issues.


@ trbarry and sjchmura, and others..

If you all are experiencing the same quality issues w/ these shows,
ST Enterprise in particular, has anyone designed a specific type of
filter just for this type of show ??


@ trbarry..
* I'm not sure what that "www.trbarry.com/BT709ToBT601.2.jpg" file is
...suppose to demonstrate here. But, they looked pretty much the same
...on my crummy monitor.

* Also, what version of AVIsynth are these filters based on ??
...Soon as I get my pc monitor straighten out, I'm planning on installing
...v2.08, if that is the recommned for most these filters, and will be
...trying my hand at YV12 capturing, soon as I figure out weather or
...not I'm using the actual codec for Analog capturing.. ie, ATI-YV12
...and which cap app, vdub or avi_io for YV12 capturing.


>> There was a comment on AVSforums about this. Someone was at a star
>> trek event and rick berman showed the episode "Regeneration" (gret
>> by the way) on a large screen.

No doubt he used the "real" deal, and not what broadcasters use when
they air this show

Later on.
-vhelp
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Old 6th June 2003, 01:50   #15  |  Link
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Well,

undot()
unfilter (-20,-20)
and
YV12Reduceby2

Are really meant for these types of applications. When you see the output side by sidein Virtualdub you too will be a believer
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Old 8th June 2003, 07:25   #16  |  Link
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I just thought my local cable feed was crap. I've probably spent a whole day and then some trying to figure out the grey looking color issues when I first started capturing Enterprise.

It sorta ruins the whole experience of watching the show. I put up some screen shots. You'll notice the grey color as well as some filtering going on with the noise. On my cable feed UPN (Channel 2) is the noisest channel out of them all.

http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/archer.png
http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/tpol.png
http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/display.png

Needless to say I've sorta stopped capturing the episodes and even stopped watching them. Anymore it just really bugs me if I try to watch something of poor quality that's ment for me to enjoy. I guess all the time I spend to fix and avoid stuff like that makes me sick to see supposed "professionals" not even care.
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Old 8th June 2003, 07:45   #17  |  Link
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Actually, I remember commenting over on AVS right after the pilot that it looked like they were sort of cultivating a grey machine shop look to the set, as if they wanted it to look primitive compared to the other series.

- Tom
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Old 8th June 2003, 11:17   #18  |  Link
neo_sapien
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Quote:
Originally posted by soulfx
I just thought my local cable feed was crap. I've probably spent a whole day and then some trying to figure out the grey looking color issues when I first started capturing Enterprise.

It sorta ruins the whole experience of watching the show. I put up some screen shots. You'll notice the grey color as well as some filtering going on with the noise. On my cable feed UPN (Channel 2) is the noisest channel out of them all.

http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/archer.png
http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/tpol.png
http://members.cox.net/soul.fxpro/display.png

Needless to say I've sorta stopped capturing the episodes and even stopped watching them. Anymore it just really bugs me if I try to watch something of poor quality that's ment for me to enjoy. I guess all the time I spend to fix and avoid stuff like that makes me sick to see supposed "professionals" not even care.
You're getting more color in your local UPN than I am, unless you adjusted the contrast/saturation yourself for those pics? Anyhow, in mine Archer's face doesn't look nearly so red, and his uniform doesn't look nearly so richly blue.

If UPN gets taken over by a decent company, do you suppose they'll start putting out Enterprise in color?
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Old 9th June 2003, 01:08   #19  |  Link
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All I do is just keep my levels in check. I learned a long time ago not to mess too much with saturation and all the other stuff. The screenshots are taken after level adjustments, noise filtering, and XviD compression.
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Old 9th June 2003, 03:35   #20  |  Link
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@ neo_sapien..

>> If UPN gets taken over by a decent company, do you suppose they'll
>> start putting out Enterprise in color?

Hell no. Won't matter none!! This is from the source. They so order
it to be broadcasted this way, and I believe that they "give" the source
in this tained or jimmied way.
So, weather ABC or NBC or HBO take over these shows, they will continue
the carrying the SAME tourch. Heck, look at TNN. Is ST TNG any
better quality ?? course not !!

Add to that, the broadcasters bitrate distibution, and you have an even
worser quality series.

So, we have the following:
* A - some shows are broadcast "jimmied"
* B - and air-to-tv is bitrate starved

If A doesn't get you, B will !! ..if not A and B !!
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