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Old 1st July 2019, 22:12   #56721  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
You need D3D11 for 10bits in Full screen windowed mode. D3D9 isn't an option for 10bits unless you're happy with FSE (I'm not).
totally unrelated they just have the same name because it is the same API.
d3d9 presentation can't do 10 bit presentation what so ever and decoding has nothing todo with that.

edit: i should just use the correct name DXVA2 copyback which uses d3d9.

Last edited by huhn; 1st July 2019 at 22:25.
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Old 1st July 2019, 22:52   #56722  |  Link
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Honestly, I don't think dynamic tone mapping in the way it's being developed deserves even a bit of extra processing. If you want brighter highlights there are other ways to get them, just use the curve the way it was formulated. Probably most people don't know that madVR uses an alternative roll-off based on the DisplayCAL implementation, which has the property of better preserving the detail near the peak at the expense of luminance. This is also the default option in DisplayCAL, but at least there you have the option to use the original BT.2390 roll-off. Now one may think that the latter is less correct because it has the risk of producing overexposed highlights, but in reality this is simply an aesthetic choice. It's a trade off between detail and luminance, some filmmakers prefer the former and others the latter, and neither is more correct than the other. We are sick of seeing blown out windows in SDR and nobody is shocked, probably only because they are not so bright, so I don't understand this obsession to preserve even the smallest detail of the highlights. Using a DisplayCAL 3DLUT you can even adjust that trade off by setting the Mastering display peak luminance, I do this with my shaders and for me this increase in luminance really makes a difference.

I'm not against dynamic tone mapping, but I think it would have made more sense that its development would have been based on the original roll-off. I was more interested at the beginning in dynamic target nits, which I thought could be very useful to raise the reference white level in a way that made sense, but lately I'm thinking it's probably more correct to set a static target nits based on the measurements. Anyway, to say that this is the best PQ that can be achieved, seems to me at least quite exaggerated. The HDR10+ curve is much more sophisticated, and unlike the BT.2390 EETF, has been expressly designed to do dynamic tone mapping. Furthermore, there are currently spatially varying tone mapping algorithms that are able to deal with problems such as noise visibility or contrast distortions, and which should not be very difficult to implement.
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:06   #56723  |  Link
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some people on here have AMD cards, but you'd never guess it
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:46   #56724  |  Link
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some people on here have AMD cards, but you'd never guess it
In that case, between RTX 570, RTX 580 and GTX 1650? pricewise

I know about the NGU thing on amd polaris but...
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:54   #56725  |  Link
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Wait until the 7th... GPU prices may shift a lot with the upcoming Navi releases

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Old 2nd July 2019, 00:18   #56726  |  Link
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gtx 1650 + 16GB RAm + 250GB NVme SSD M2 + fancy case with lots of 3.5/2.5 slots
or
gtx 1660 + 8GB RAM + normal ssd 250GBG + not so fancy case with enough but limited 3.5/2.5 slots.
Is this for a dedicated HTPC, or a general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR?
For dedicated HTPC the second option is better. For a general usage PC I wouldn't get less than 16 GB of RAM.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:04   #56727  |  Link
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Is this for a dedicated HTPC, or a general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR?
For dedicated HTPC the second option is better. For a general usage PC I wouldn't get less than 16 GB of RAM.
Mainly general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR!!

I can replace gtx 1650 with RX 580 4GB or RX 570 8GB. The price is the same.

Is the only problem of amd polaris on NGU algos??
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:29   #56728  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Honestly, I don't think dynamic tone mapping in the way it's being developed deserves even a bit of extra processing. If you want brighter highlights there are other ways to get them, just use the curve the way it was formulated. Probably most people don't know that madVR uses an alternative roll-off based on the DisplayCAL implementation, which has the property of better preserving the detail near the peak at the expense of luminance. This is also the default option in DisplayCAL, but at least there you have the option to use the original BT.2390 roll-off. Now one may think that the latter is less correct because it has the risk of producing overexposed highlights, but in reality this is simply an aesthetic choice.
I think the aesthetic choice comes from designing tone mapping for SDR devices that don't produce overly bright highlights anyways. Getting extra pop from 100 nit highlights on a projector has negligible returns in its own right. User feedback drove some of the decision making. I'd have to see images of the two curve options to see if the difference is notable.

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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
I'm not against dynamic tone mapping, but I think it would have made more sense that its development would have been based on the original roll-off. I was more interested at the beginning in dynamic target nits, which I thought could be very useful to raise the reference white level in a way that made sense, but lately I'm thinking it's probably more correct to set a static target nits based on the measurements.
The static target nits sacrifices too much brightness or too much contrast, depending on the scene. For SDR output, it can sometimes seem necessary when you are working with a display with a limited range of contrast. It also prevents some of the issues on low brightness displays such as lowering the black floor too much with a static curve when the source has a lot of content near black and a fair bit of content at a high peak white.

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Anyway, to say that this is the best PQ that can be achieved, seems to me at least quite exaggerated. The HDR10+ curve is much more sophisticated, and unlike the BT.2390 EETF, has been expressly designed to do dynamic tone mapping. Furthermore, there are currently spatially varying tone mapping algorithms that are able to deal with problems such as noise visibility or contrast distortions, and which should not be very difficult to implement.
Does HDR10+ have a tone curve? Do you have a link to information on this curve? HDR10 leaves the choice of curve to the display. The spatial tone mapping options have been discussed at AVS Forums, but they were deemed too slow, even for madVR.

Edit: I found the HDR10+ Bezier curve that can be embedded in HDR10+ content on Google. It looks like an interesting curve for rolling off the highlights, but it doesn't seem to dig deep enough to be a good curve for HDR to SDR tone mapping.

HDR10+ does apparently have the ability to read the APL of the image to avoid unwanted tone mapping for low APL scenes and has a method of avoiding tone mapping of small patches of bright pixels.

http://mile-high.video/files/mhv2018..._10_Mandel.pdf

Last edited by Warner306; 2nd July 2019 at 01:51.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:34   #56729  |  Link
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the 1650 is a generally bad card avoid it.

polaris are freaking heater with missing hardware decoder like VP9 which youtube and netflix are pushing hard.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:17   #56730  |  Link
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Not really jumping into the card debate too far, but, I will tell you that coming from the 1060 6gb going to a 2070, FOR ME, was a really good decision. The 1060 I did have to compromise on settings that I personally did not want to really compromise on, however, that being said, it was very capable. It's without a doubt the lowest card I'd recommend. These 16xx cards don't seem like a good bargain for madvr. You'd be better off with a 1070 or 1080 IMO.

As for AMD, I've no modern experience there. AMD burned a bridge with me in their 5xxx series of cards and I've not really bothered looking back as nVidia has served me well for the past many years. But, that being said, AMD is getting more aggressive so I wouldn't necessarily count them out. I do agree on hardware decoding and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on this, that hardware encoding on AMD cards is also behind nVidia. That's not directly related to madvr necessarily, but, something to consider.

My $0.02
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:07   #56731  |  Link
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Getting extra pop from 100 nit highlights on a projector has negligible returns in its own right. User feedback drove some of the decision making.
Of course if we accept that the SDR is equal to 100 nits then you are probably right. I don't think it makes sense to use the original roll-off on displays with limited luminance, in fact the result would be worse. I can also clearly see the potential benefits of using dynamic target nits in situations where the limited range needs to be exploited in the best possible way. What happens is that today most TVs can reach around 300 nits, so taking into account the above, and the name of the thread in which the tone mapping development is taking place, it may be time to assume that madVR tone mapping is being optimized for low nits projectors, with all the limitations that this implies for more brilliant displays.

And in the same way I can easily agree with you that unlike madVR, the HDR10+ curve has not been developed with SDR 100 nits in mind.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 13:13   #56732  |  Link
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Some projectors can approach 300 nits, but they are getting far less when calibrated. Raising the brightness that high also raises the black floor, so it is better to get as much contrast as possible on a projector with HDR content rather than attempting to max out peak brightness.

Maybe a separate curve option would benefit HDR output.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 13:15   #56733  |  Link
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Do you ever read what people write before writing nonsense? This is EXACTLY the point I was making. That for some people who don't use all the features and are ready to compromise on PQ, a 1060 is fine. And for others, who use all the features and don't want to compromise on PQ, a 1080ti can be just enough.
the discussion starts because people tent to claim that you need a high end GPU for people that ask for scaling not tonemapping.
it goes as far as people claim for X you need a 1080 or better even through the exact claimed option can be done with a 1060.

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Here D3D11 copyback is at least 15-20% slower than D3D11 native. It's even more obvious when measuring files with MadMeasureHDR. It takes 10-15mn in D3D11 native with my 1080ti, at least 20-25mn in copyback, and more than 30mn with my iGPU on the MBP 13" 2018.
measuring files is a bad comparison there is only that much PCIe bandwidth if you run out of it madVR has to wait and that's what's happing here.

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Of course it is possible to shift them without cropping them, I do it all the time. I tried cropping and it doesn't make much of a difference. In any case, you need to test with 1.78 pictures otherwise it looks like you're fine and then you play Pacific Rim in HDR and you don't understand why your frames are dropping. That's why I don't bother cropping the frames. Whatever settings I choose have to work with 1.78 content, so even if I could save a few ms with cropping wide ARs it wouldn't help my 1.78 titles.
at least i'm not alone on this anymore...
In any case, I only mention the black bars detection because it's a common software feature that requires copyback. I need copyback for UHD Bluray Menus in jRiver, so black bars isn't really relevant.



Quote:
Good for you. It's not meaningless here. That's why I suggest you test a 1080ti with my OS and then report back, instead of claiming that there is no difference.
Quote:
And what difference do you make between "a couple of ms" and "2ms"? That's exactly what I said.
if a 960 can do it this fast a 1080 ti is supposed to be much faster. that why i say that.

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A lot of people brag about their lower GPU, but they either don't use all the features or they compromise on quality. Or they don't notice frame drops.
doesn't that count for every GPU? if someone asked for a upscaling 1080p to 2160p with decent settings he didn't ask for a 2080 ti here.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 14:23   #56734  |  Link
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the discussion starts because people tent to claim that you need a high end GPU for people that ask for scaling not tonemapping.
it goes as far as people claim for X you need a 1080 or better even through the exact claimed option can be done with a 1060.
Except that this is NOT what happened in this instance. Someone asks for a recommendation for a GPU WITHOUT saying specifically what they intend to do with it (yet mention 4K content, which means HDR, so possibly HDR dynamic tonemapping). So lots of people reply saying that a 1060 is more than enough. That's not a helpful reply. They should *first* ask what the user plans to do with it, including which features (3D LUT? HDR dynamic tonemapping? Need for software decoding?), instead of starting to brag about their low-end card being more than enough to meet whatever limited use they have for it.

My point was not to say that *everyone* needs a 2080ti. I don't need one.

My point was to say that while some people can be perfectly happy with a 1060, they will quickly reach its limits if they want to do everything that madVR offers, especially if they need software decoding only features either from madVR or from other software or want to use HDR dynamic tonemapping.

I couldn't care less that many people are happy with their 960 or 1060 or whatever. I'm only saying that if you want the best PQ that madVR has to offer and want to use all the features, that's most likely not enough given that I meet some limitations with a 1080ti.

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measuring files is a bad comparison there is only that much PCIe bandwidth if you run out of it madVR has to wait and that's what's happing here.
Please read my reply. The difference is 15-20% here, and it's EVEN MORE OBVIOUS when measuring files. It would really help if you could read each reply before writing back more nonsense.

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if a 960 can do it this fast a 1080 ti is supposed to be much faster. that why i say that.
And my point is that it's not the case here. A 3D LUT takes a few ms here even with a 1080ti. This is why I suggested that you test a 1080ti, using all the options that I mentioned before coming up with all your nonsense.

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doesn't that count for every GPU? if someone asked for a upscaling 1080p to 2160p with decent settings he didn't ask for a 2080 ti here.
Yes, and this has nothing to do with my point, I never said a 2080ti was necessary. The OP also mentioned playing 4K content, which means HDR as far as commercial content is concerned. Read above.
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Last edited by Manni; 2nd July 2019 at 14:30.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 15:16   #56735  |  Link
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Maybe you two can start a new thread where you constantly post each others comments over and over.

We get it you disagree.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 15:41   #56736  |  Link
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they can disagree to their hearts content on the general thread.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769
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Old 2nd July 2019, 16:19   #56737  |  Link
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Hello, I would really appreciate some help getting my HDR working in Madvr if anyone don't mind helping.

Both Madvr OSD are in HDR but the video it self aren't. D3D11 are also only in 8 bit not 10 bit and it says HDR "Unknown properties". Also Fullscreen Exclusive doesn't turn on either with HDR atm.
When comparing the exact same scene from Youtube in HDR, the Youtube video are A lot brighter which is also why I don't think the HDR in working in my Potplayer+Madvr.

OSD (Tab)
OSD (Ctrl+j)

Settings:
Identification
Properties
Calibration
Color&Gamma
HDR

Player: Potplayer


Side question: I've keybind zooming/blackbars Profiles but when when switching zooming profiles the whole window changes size not just the video.

Could I maybe run a Fullscreen command after zooming to restore it to fullscreen? But I can't find any Madvr commands.

Video example


(Sorry for spamming, but would really like to get the HDR working.)

Last edited by mambans; 5th July 2019 at 04:10.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 16:51   #56738  |  Link
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Except that this is NOT what happened in this instance. Someone asks for a recommendation for a GPU WITHOUT saying specifically what they intend to do with it (yet mention 4K content, which means HDR, so possibly HDR dynamic tonemapping). So lots of people reply saying that a 1060 is more than enough. That's not a helpful reply. They should *first* ask what the user plans to do with it, including which features (3D LUT? HDR dynamic tonemapping? Need for software decoding?), instead of starting to brag about their low-end card being more than enough to meet whatever limited use they have for it.
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What gpu should i buy to play 1080p -> 4k sources and some 4k playback on madvr with decent (medium) settings??
did i miss something?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 18:05   #56739  |  Link
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did i miss something?
Yes, you did.

The OP in the part you quoted said that they also wanted to play 4K content.

99% of the time that means HDR content (UHD Bluray), unless they are only interested in demo files.

Before making suggestions that a 1060 was more than enough, no one asked the OP if they planned to send HDR passthrough to the display/PJ (we don't even know the screen size/sitting distance, which will impact how much processing is needed) or if they wanted to use the HDR dynamic tonemapping with pixel shaders to play their 4K content. And in connection with that, no one asked the OP if they wanted to use any feature that needed software decoding, or if they planned to use madVR for calibration as well, or if they planned to use 8bits or 12bits, or if 50/60p was important or if they only cared about 24p content. All these put together have an impact on performance that could make the difference between frame drops and no frame drops unless PQ is compromised.

The OP might have no idea that some of these features even exist, but my point is to simply bring to their attention that the question in itself doesn't provide enough information to allow anyone (included myself) to make an educated guess that won't lead to frustration or disappointment once they buy the recommended 1060. Will you refund them when they find out that they can only use half to the features offered by madVR or have to compromise PQ more than they intended to if they follow your advice? Or will you blame them for not having provided enough information when they asked the question?

For me, madVR is about getting the best possible PQ. When I bought my 1080ti a couple of years back, I had some headroom. Today, especially with HDR dynamic tonemapping for 4K content, I have none. I would just like to see people who make recommendations to read carefully what's written in a question, and ask for more information before making a recommendation.

Now it looks like some are not happy with this. I have no idea why, but that won't change the reason why I posted. It's because a 1060 is limited in many situations, and I'd rather be sure that a prospective buyer is aware of these limitations before they buy one. If they are and can live with them, fine, they save money and everyone is happy (including me).

I agree with those who say that this exchange has been long enough, so this will be my last post on the subject as I don't have the time nor the inclination to go on discussing this in another thread .
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Last edited by Manni; 2nd July 2019 at 18:19.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 18:53   #56740  |  Link
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but a 1060 can do tone mapping with medium setting it can do NGU with medium setting and it can do calibration all at the same time at 60 hz.

BTW. tone mapping with TVs is sadly not that great people are usually not eager to have an 500+ nits SDR image or change the TV settings all the time...
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