madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by Neo-XP

Dumb mode - convert gamut late:



Dumb mode - convert gamut late + restore details in compressed highlights:



Complex scientific mode - RGB clip:



Is it possible to have a quick fix for this if the next version is not ready yet?

I am assuming you are outputting both at BT.2020? If the HDR -> SDR is BT.709, that could throw things off.

That second last post definitely looks like a bug.

I'm still at a loss to determine if dumb or complex scientific is more accurate. The complex scientific shot doesn't look that bad, either. It is promising when your HDR display is close to the 1080p Blu-ray, but there is a fair to good chance it is also using dumb gamut mapping. dumb will destaturte more than scientific, but it consistently changes the hue in almost random ways, so it is not very precise or predictable in its correction. Scientific has maintained greater saturation and the warmer colors might have been intended, or it might not. Or, the person grading the 4K master intended dumb gamut mapping to correct when necessary. Doesn't seem likely. It's hard to tell.

That is a good example. I would compare dumb mode in madVR to your HDR display and see if you can spot any differences.

[COOLak]

Hi all. Basically I've been using MadVR for years, with very modest settings that have always suited my needs and never caused issues. Now I encountered a video that's 1080p@30fps, and for some reason it's like a slideshow. Almost unmoving in fullscreen and still choppy and laggy in the windowed mode. My TV is also 1080p and supports 30fps, to which it changes automatically via MPC-HC (not sure why, but this option never worked with MadVR for me, so I'm using MPC-HC capabilities for that). My video card is Zotac GeForce GTX 1050ti, the OS is Windows 7 x64. I'm using the conjunction of MPC-HC, LAV Filters, and MadVR. The CUDA mechanism is used. If I select the default MPC-HC renderer, everything is fine, but with MadVR it's just how it is, completely unwatchable. I don't want to disable MadVR solely to be able to watch some select videos, so I'm asking for your help in configuring it properly. Considering that the video resolution matches my screen, it's weird, because MadVR shouldn't neither upscale nor downscale anything in this case, and I don't know why it's causing this video to lag. I'm attaching my settings.bin and the data from MediaInfo about this video. Please take a look. Thanks.

[XTrojan]

Small question, my TV is calibrated to Rec709 2.2 which I have set in MadVR.

Sometimes I happen to watch 4k, which is rec2020. Will MadVR adapt to 4k Rec2020 or am I forced to change the tv settings back and forth everytime?

[Asmodian]

If you have your display set to "this display is already calibrated" at BT.709 + pure power 2.2 then madVR will covert BT.2020 content to be correct on your TV, without changing any settings in your TV.

Note: any colors outside the BT.709 gamut will be clipped, you cannot display all of BT.2020 on a BT.709 display.

[XTrojan]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

If you have your display set to "this display is already calibrated" at BT.709 + pure power 2.2 then madVR will covert BT.2020 content to be correct on your TV, without changing any settings in your TV.

Note: any colors outside the BT.709 gamut will be clipped, you cannot display all of BT.2020 on a BT.709 display.

It's a JS9000 I believe it can display around 65% of BT2020 colors.

But since it's configuered for BT709 you're saying the colors outside that will be clipped?

Is it better to just change the color space to "native" on the TV? Is there any point "calibrating" for Rec2020, since you can't go outside the color space of BT2020, or well no TV can so far, so it's better to just put it to "native"?

All in all, getting correct color for HDR and BT2020 seems very confusing...

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by COOLak

I don't know why it's causing this video to lag. I'm attaching my settings.bin and the data from MediaInfo about this video. Please take a look. Thanks.

Screenshot your OSD plz.

[jmone]

I can create the following Custom Resolution which works better than the default for dropping / repeating frames. The issue is that it seems to only allow RGB 8-Bit colour space and this causes issues on my JVC PJ (Purple push). I need to set YCbCr 4:2:2 @ 10-Bit for correct colour and while I can do this using the STD resolutions, the NVidia control panel only allows RGB 8-Bit when using the Custom Res.

Does anyone know if it is possible to have a Cusom Res for timing with YCbCr 4:2:2 @ 10-Bit ?

Thanks
Nathan

[Manni]

Originally Posted by Asmodian

Thanks for the info. I am surprised people calibrate to 50 nits for SDR peak white if the projector can do 100 nits, even in a completely dark room. Maybe 80 nits but 50 seems obviously too dim to me. Diffuse white at 25 nits on screen would be very dim with a lot of the HDR content I have, at least as viewed on my OLED. I use 100 nits peak white for SDR, and diffuse white in HDR, in a completely dark room. I picked it over 80 and 120 nits after testing for a few days at each.

Was 50 nits chosen as a minimum reasonable brightness or is that actually thought ideal even if a higher brightness is possible?

50nits for reference white for SDR isn't preference, it's reference. That's the cinema reference (47nits), which is translated to home cinema, even thought the content itself is mastered to 100nits. Some prefer a brighter picture, and there's nothing wrong with that, but reference in a home cinema with a projector in a dedicated room with no ambient light (you were talking about projectors) is 50nits. If you have any ambient light, then you'll most likely need more than 50nits. I can tolerate up to 60-65nits for bluray, anything above that is not comfortable (to me). I know some people who use 80nits or more with a projector, but usually they don't have a bat cave and tend to have some lights on. Also with a projector, opening the iris to raise peak brightness also raises black levels and lowers on/off contrast, unless you use a dynamic iris. You don't have this issue with OLED, so it might be less of a compromise to target a higher reference white with a flat panel.

I have no idea about your OLED. It probably has at least 500 to 600nits, so chosing 100nits for reference white makes sense if it's comfortable to your eyes as you still have some headroom for the highlights. It doesn't make sense with a projector that has 100-120nit peak white as you have no headroom for highlights if you set diffuse white to 100nits (apart from the fact that it would be blinding, at least in my room). The most I would want for dark scenes is 100nits in content = 50nits on my screen, or a brightness factor of 2. But I wouldn't be able to use this for the whole film unless the brightness factor is adjusted dynamically. Apart from the excessive brightness, there wouldn't be enough headroom for highlights in most cases (with titles with content up to and above 4000nits) and you'd lose a lot of detail.

Yes 25nits reference white will be too dim for quite a few titles, yet anything above that will be too bright for others. That's why I said 25-50nits (on screen) for diffuse white in HDR. This is also why I use three different custom gamma curves in my JVC and MadVR in passthrough mode with the Vertex selecting the most appropriate calibration according to the HDR metadata, until MadVR can either adjust its conversion to each title or provide a variable to select a different profile according to the HDR metadata (not just Max mastering brightness). We'll get there in the end, but for now Madshi is working on the tone-mapping itself. We've agreed to put dynamic conversion on the back burner for now until the algo is set (and the options simplified). So it will take a little while.

With a peak white of 120nits in HDR (normal lamp with 1200 hours on the bulb, I get around 175nits in high lamp), I use a target brightness of 480nits in MadVR, which means a diffuse white of 25. That's way too dim for some titles/scenes (that's one of the issues with MadVR's current implementation with projectors), but it's the best "one-size-fits-all" compromise for the average title, and I'm not blinded with bright titles.

[XTrojan]

Is it normal for composition rate to be 60Hz at Exclusive FullScreen mode when the display is at 23.976?

Whenever I switch back to windowed or normal fullscreen composition is 23.976 (normal)

Edit: It doesn't matter if it's D3D 9 or 11, whenever FSE is enabled it says composition rate is 60.000 Hz even if the display is at 23.976 and the content as well, should one be worried?

[huhn]

what windows version is used and is it a dual screen setup?

[madjock]

Originally Posted by XTrojan

Is it normal for composition rate to be 60Hz at Exclusive FullScreen mode when the display is at 23.976?

Whenever I switch back to windowed or normal fullscreen composition is 23.976 (normal)

Think thats an indication bug that happens sometimes rather than it actually going to 60Hz.

[XTrojan]

Originally Posted by madjock

Think thats an indication bug that happens sometimes rather than it actually going to 60Hz.

So it's nothing to be worried about? The TV is set to 23.976

[XTrojan]

Originally Posted by huhn

what windows version is used and is it a dual screen setup?

Windows 10, single screen.

[huhn]

you usually get huge playback problems and judder.
thsi depends heavy on the windows version and the number of screens.
for some setup there are work arounds for some there are none.


edit:

for win 10 you can try different version of it and make sure you are using the newest driver. in term of desktop composition it is a total disaster that changes with every WDDM version.
overlay rendering should be immune to issues from composition rates.
BTW win 8 fixed this issue completely but well they broke it for 10 again.

[XTrojan]

Originally Posted by huhn

you usually get huge playback problems and judder.
thsi depends heavy on the windows version and the number of screens.
for some setup there are work arounds for some there are none.


edit:

for win 10 you can try different version of it and make sure you are using the newest driver. in term of desktop composition it is a total disaster that changes with every WDDM version.
overlay rendering should be immune to issues from composition rates.
BTW win 8 fixed this issue completely but well they broke it for 10 again.

Weirdly enough I got no judder or playback problems at all.

I use latest version (windows 1803)

[nevcairiel]

If you are in FSE mode, then you would not have any composition rate, since the entire point of FSE is to avoid the compositor.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by XTrojan

It's a JS9000 I believe it can display around 65% of BT2020 colors.

But since it's configuered for BT709 you're saying the colors outside that will be clipped?

Yes.

Originally Posted by XTrojan

Is it better to just change the color space to "native" on the TV? Is there any point "calibrating" for Rec2020 [...]?

Native is what would make the best use of the available bit depth against the real gamut your screen can display, but obviously it's not a standard so you'd need to provide madVR with 3DLUTs for your screen for all the standard colour spaces so it could map each to your native gamut.
But 3DLUT can cause issues as several people have shared here (and you need software that can generate them), so I think the best would be to calibrate your screen to the standard closest to, but bigger than, its native gamut, so probably DCI-P3 (or BT.2020 if the native gamut goes beyond DCI-P3 but I doubt this is the case) and then choose that as a gamut setting under the "this display is already calibrated" option. madVR will then map all content to DCI-P3 which your screen will be calibrated to so you'll still have correct colours with BT.709 encoded content but less clipping with BT.2020 encoded content.

Originally Posted by huhn

for win 10 you can try different version of it and make sure you are using the newest driver. in term of desktop composition it is a total disaster that changes with every WDDM version.

My 2 cents, using Win10 on NVIDIA: whatever the driver version, I always got perfect playback (no glitches) in windowed mode with 1607 and 1703. Since updating to 1709 I sometimes get one or two presentation glitches per movie but I never notice anything when watching so I don't know how exactly they manifest in practice.

[huhn]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

If you are in FSE mode, then you would not have any composition rate, since the entire point of FSE is to avoid the compositor.

even than it can break it and should not do this but this is clearly happening i mean you are not supposed to have a composition rate in FSE.

i personally only saw any issues with dual screen setup which depends heavily on the OS and driver version and my HTPC was not effectted by this ever.

[XTrojan]

Originally Posted by el Filou

Yes.

Native is what would make the best use of the available bit depth against the real gamut your screen can display, but obviously it's not a standard so you'd need to provide madVR with 3DLUTs for your screen for all the standard colour spaces so it could map each to your native gamut.
But 3DLUT can cause issues as several people have shared here (and you need software that can generate them), so I think the best would be to calibrate your screen to the standard closest to, but bigger than, its native gamut, so probably DCI-P3 (or BT.2020 if the native gamut goes beyond DCI-P3 but I doubt this is the case) and then choose that as a gamut setting under the "this display is already calibrated" option. madVR will then map all content to DCI-P3 which your screen will be calibrated to so you'll still have correct colours with BT.709 encoded content but less clipping with BT.2020 encoded content.

My 2 cents, using Win10 on NVIDIA: whatever the driver version, I always got perfect playback (no glitches) in windowed mode with 1607 and 1703. Since updating to 1709 I sometimes get one or two presentation glitches per movie but I never notice anything when watching so I don't know how exactly they manifest in practice.

So for now just put it to "disable calibration" and TV settings to native or "auto".

HDR calibration seems way too tricky for me.

[COOLak]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Screenshot your OSD plz.

Please take a look.