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Old 7th December 2017, 20:00   #1281  |  Link
lansing
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The CPU is extremely cool when idle -- much lower than graphics cards. Right now, it has mild load, and is only at 25. I have a Noctua on it. I think the TDP of an average fancy graphics card is something like 2x-3x that of a CPU. At best, a graphics card would be in the 30s or 40s when "idle", maybe higher. And I put that in quotes because there's really no "idle" on graphics cards, compared to CPUs, it just gets hot or hotter.

It gets worse when you pay extra for a graphics card to heat the room, then pay again to have the AC cool the room, plus all the fan noise from BOTH the graphics card fan and the AC. When I built this rig, cooling and noise was the priority, with an i7-6700K being required for horsepower.
If your computer can cook a room so hot that you need an AC to counter it, there's something wrong with your cooling solution. My computer sits right next to my mouse-using hand and my hand was ice cold during winter time.

TDP are more correlated to watt usage, it has no relationship whatsoever as to temperature Celsius, your information is wrong. Running 100% of a 250 TDP graphic card does not mean the card goes to 250 degrees Celsius. Most modern cards stayed in the 70s on full loaded.

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Insane values for insanely bad nth gen VHS. That wasn't my script, but I'll continue to play with it. So far, trying to lower values would just disable the good it was doing on the video.

Not sure what the Dragonball reference is to.
Something like this.
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Old 7th December 2017, 20:18   #1282  |  Link
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If your computer can cook a room so hot that you need an AC to counter it, there's something wrong
You must not live in the south, where it's hot almost year round. It was 80 F just 2 days ago, and the AC started running (thermostat set to 79). When you have a computer pumping out heat, and heat outside, life is miserable. A computer does make the AC kick on, and run so much that it can seize. So the goal is to limit heat output as much as possible. A computer can make a room a good 5 degrees hotter minimum, and I've seen it as much as 10 in years past.

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TDP are more correlated to watt usage, it has no relationship whatsoever as to temperature
Direct correlation, no. But indirect, yes, absolutely. TDP is a statement about thermal output. There is data to extrapolate there. It's not 100% divorced from heat output.

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Running 100% of a 250 TDP graphic card does not mean the card goes to 250 degrees Celsius.
I never said it did.

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Most modern cards stayed in the 70s on full loaded.
I've seen cards run well in the 80s or 90s.

I think you're missing my point: Whether it's 70 or even 35, it's more than 0, which is what the computer has now. And I'm better for it. The atypical GPU video filter won't sway me on iota into "upgrading". If really needed, I can borrow one from a gamer I know.

This filter looks great, but no amount of GPU will really give it a usable boost if the filter is being pushed beyond default minimums.

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Something like this.
That video is absolutely flawless compared to the mess I'm working on.

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Originally Posted by Khanattila View Post
2005 IEEE Computer Society Conference on Computer Vision and Pattern Recognition.
I refer to the Avisynth filter, not the algorithm. You've made a great filter, ahead of its time. But we lack the horsepower to really push it. Please take that as the compliment it is.
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Old 8th December 2017, 00:01   #1283  |  Link
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I disagree. It's a pretty good guide for what temperatures you can expect, both at idle and 100%. Again, I get 25 from a CPU with mild load, but an "idle" GPU would easily be in the 30s-40s or more, at least doubling my system heat output. TDP suggested it. TDP of that CPU is about 90, while TDP of most fancy graphics cards are well into the 100s-200s.
I realize that historically I have had absolutely zero success in convincing the various doom9 forums nutjobs I've encountered over the years of anything, but for the record... I currently have, in the computer right next to me, a top of the line graphics card powering my 4k monitor. It's 300mm long, it's got 8GB VRAM, it's got three big honking fans on it, and it'll clock up to somewhere north of 1.9GHz if it needs to. It's got more than twice the TDP of my CPU, at an impressive 180W. As you can see, this monster is turning the room into a sauna even when idling:



oh. uh. well.
The fan readout isn't bugged by the way, the card has a ginormous heatsink on it and the fans are intentionally stopped when the GPU is near idle.

Compare this to the old faithful i5 CPU which is actually using more power (almost a whole watt more! what a waste!) and running its fan at a few hundred RPM:



Also, lol at the idea of even trying to measure the heating effect the dissipation of these monstrous 30-ish watts of energy has on an entire room. An oldschool light bulb in a desk lamp would put out more heat! Even 300 watts is pretty much peanuts when it comes to space heating. It's an absolutely trivial amount of heat in relation to the thermal inertia of even a small apartment.

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Old 8th December 2017, 00:20   #1284  |  Link
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what about new high-end laptops? it will not use the dedicated gpu and use the one in the cpu when idle or even using light things
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Old 8th December 2017, 00:49   #1285  |  Link
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heating effect the dissipation of these monstrous 30-ish watts of energy has on an entire room. An oldschool light bulb in a desk lamp would put out more heat!
It's all additive. This is a main reason we keep lights off when possible, quiet ceiling fans on low/silent. The CFL are supposedly cooler, but some bulbs seem to output just as much heat. Replacing TVs with LCD in the past decade has helped.

After I built this Skylake, it was the first winter where the room actually got chilly a few times.

The 47-C vs 39-C somewhat illustrates my point. It's 20% hotter, even understanding the older Intels weren't all that cool (though AMD was worse). Additively speaking, it's 120% hotter, for both CPU and GPU. With no graphic cards, it'd be 50% cooler. Newer CPU would probably cool that even more, especially if using a Noctua.

TDP of that GPU = 180
TDP of that CPU = 77
Not direct correlation for heat output, but not unrelated. Give both mild load, and that GPU will be curve up far quicker than the CPU. At some point in the graph, it probably will run almost twice as hot.

GPUs would probably run a bit cooler at idle if fans didn't stop at idle, which I've never understood.

It's just a penalty of having a card. I don't need one. I don't need to upgrade for video encoding. Almost nothing takes advantage of GPU encoding, and never did, and has mostly been hype to date.

It is what it is.

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what about new high-end laptops? it will not use the dedicated gpu and use the one in the cpu when idle or even using light things
I like stuff like this. There when needed, not when not. That's the future. We have V8s that cut off 4 cylinders (Chargers), and it'd be nice to see desktop have similar switching abilities. No idea how that'd be engineered.

Another neat item for next decade.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:11   #1286  |  Link
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I don’t think you understand how any of this works. Thermodynamically speaking almost all the electrical energy going into the computer will be converted to thermal energy. If the GPU and the CPU are using the same amount of energy but one is hotter than the other because it’s not running its fans, then that means it’s actually transferring less energy to the surrounding air (and by extension, heating your room less). The temperature of the silicon really isn’t interesting at all here. An incandescent 40W light bulb has a wire heated to over 2000 degrees Kelvin in it, and yet it’s sure as heck not putting out more than 40W of heat. Physics!

Here’s a topical but completely pointless bit of trivia: an average human body dissipates an average of around 100W of energy as heat. Slow your metabolism and eat less to make your room less hot!

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Old 8th December 2017, 01:52   #1287  |  Link
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You may look at my short tutorial to how to tweak the settings. Your D and A settings are insane. Not even the dragon ball z level set need that high of an A.
Update:

So I pulled back KNLmeansCL settings as much as possible, attacking only the worst of the video. It still needs a lot of work, but I'm getting about 10fps using the Intel GPU with MT in x64 Avisynth+.

I can attack the remaining issues with faster filters. None are as good as the pure KNLmeansCL in terms of end result quality, but will suffice.

Thanks for the tips.

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I don’t think you understand how any of this works. Thermodynamically speaking almost all the electrical energy going into the computer will be converted to thermal energy.
As far as TDP/heat/etc:

A 40W bulb also has no fan, but the heat emanates into the room. The computer has ventilation, the computer is a conductor, the card has ventilation, heat emanates out the card, thus into the room. Also science.

And you're still missing my point. Having no card = 0, any card = more than 0. The card will expel heat, be it passively or actively (fan). I want a compute to compute, not double as a room heater in the summer. Because it does raise a room by at least 5 degrees here, if not more. If you're in New York or Colorado or Canada or somewhere, you may not run into that problem.

Again, TDP isn't a direct measure of heat expelled by a given system. But it's also not a measurement of mere power consumption. For example, given the TDP numbers against your heat measurement, I have to wonder if the CPU heatsink is inadequate, or needs a re-seat/re-paste. That's what the numbers tell me. It also tells me to expect the GPU to run hotter, though probably not 2x hotter realistically. Those are why the numbers exist.

Anyway, whatever... I have encoding to do now.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:44   #1288  |  Link
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lordsmurf!
Some time ago I am spoken author about paper also. After some test and try I am found that for interlaced source (fields) better value for s=1, for s=2 (default value) filtered image will be more softer.
Decreasing s from 2 to 1 increasing speed. Also for color planes (not luma) can using easy setting.
yup.
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Old 8th December 2017, 13:10   #1289  |  Link
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The 47-C vs 39-C somewhat illustrates my point. It's 20% hotter,
Never divide temperature values in Celsius, if necessary, do it in Kelvins. You'll get a 2,5% instead. (But what really counts, the excessive heat, it is the deltaT)
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Old 8th December 2017, 16:13   #1290  |  Link
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lordsmurf!
Some time ago I am spoken author about paper also. After some test and try I am found that for interlaced source (fields) better value for s=1, for s=2 (default value) filtered image will be more softer.
Decreasing s from 2 to 1 increasing speed. Also for color planes (not luma) can using easy setting.
yup.
Thanks. I'll remember that.

Unfortunately, this time, it didn't make any noticeable difference on quality or speed. It may simply be due to this clip and the longer 4x call script.

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Never divide temperature values in Celsius, if necessary, do it in Kelvins. You'll get a 2,5% instead. (But what really counts, the excessive heat, it is the deltaT)
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Old 8th December 2017, 21:26   #1291  |  Link
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Again, TDP isn't a direct measure of heat expelled by a given system. But it's also not a measurement of mere power consumption. For example, given the TDP numbers against your heat measurement, I have to wonder if the CPU heatsink is inadequate, or needs a re-seat/re-paste. That's what the numbers tell me. It also tells me to expect the GPU to run hotter, though probably not 2x hotter realistically. Those are why the numbers exist.
That's not how TDP works. That's not how any of this works!

Clearly, it's time for

Thermodynamics 101
with T. Fluff, PhD
(I hold a doctorate in The Science of Telling People they are Wrong on the Internet)

Let's review the fundamentals first, yeah? This is all high school physics, so you should probably know this. The laws of thermodynamics tell us two important things relevant to this discussion, namely that
a) energy can never be created or destroyed (so if we put some energy into a system we must get the same amount of energy out), and
b) entropy tends to increase, so if you have two bodies with different temperatures in thermic contact with each other energy will flow from the hotter one to the colder one until they reach equilibrium.

Now on to what this means in practice. In a computer, we input electrical energy. Some of this energy is converted to kinetic energy (to spin harddrive platters and fans), and some is converted to electromagnetic radiation mainly in the form of visible light (in LED's and in the monitor), but the vast majority of it eventually decays to thermal energy after being used to push some electrons around through a bunch of transistors. This heat has to go somewhere, and that somewhere eventually ends up being the air of the room. In a moment, we will calculate the magnitude of this effect, but first we need to clear up a misconception.

The TDP of a processor is an estimated ballpark number of the amount of thermal energy it generates in a given fictive scenario that's supposed to represent a typical peak workload. In any other scenario (such as most scenarios you'll find in reality), the actual amount of heat generated is different - the TDP is only supposed to be a rough estimate of the maximum sustained heat generation possible. The TDP number has absolutely nothing to do with any of the following:
- amount of heat generated at idle
- amount of electrical power consumed at idle
- temperature of the silicon in any given situation

In practice, the amount of thermal energy generated by a processor is pretty much equivalent to its electrical power consumption because almost all of the electrical energy quickly decays to heat. The first law of thermodynamics also tells us that we cannot possibly get more thermal energy out of a processor than the amount of electrical energy we put into it. If you look at the processor's power consumption then, you will have a good idea of how much heat it's producing. Modern CPU's and GPU's are very good at clocking down (and more importantly, reducing the voltage) at idle and so you'll see a typical idle power consumption of 10-20 watts. The power consumption - and by extension, thermal energy generation - still doesn't have anything to do with the temperature of the chip, though. See, temperature is a measure of energy, but it's a measure of stored energy. Two chips consuming the same amount of electrical energy will heat your room exactly the same, even if one is twice as hot as the other. The only thing that's different in the hotter chip is that the energy stays in it for longer before dissipating into the room.

Speaking of energy storage, to calculate the heating effect of an idling CPU we first need to discuss specific heat capacity. Different substances can store different amounts of thermal energy, and the specific heat capacity is a measure of how much energy a substance can store per unit mass. Or, in more practical terms - heating one kilogram of water by one degree Kelvin takes about four times as much energy as heating one kilogram of air by one degree Kelvin. Many metals have very low specific heat capacity, meaning it takes little energy to heat them up, but conversely that also means they're bad at retaining that energy and they quickly cool down again. For example, copper (commonly used in heatsinks because of its excellent thermal conductivity) has a specific heat capacity of 0.385 J/gK (joules per gram kelvin difference - it takes 0.385 joules of energy to heat one gram of copper by one degree kelvin). Air at typical indoor conditions has a specific heat capacity of about 1.01 J/gK.

If we then assume a spherical CPU in a vacuum... uh, no, I mean, a small 30 square meter studio apartment with the minimum indoor ceiling height of 2.4 meters allowed by the building code in these parts, we can easily calculate that the 72 cubic meters of air inside weighs around 92 kilograms. Given the previously discussed specific heat capacity, heating 92 kilograms of air by one degree kelvin (or equivalently in this case, one degree celsius) takes 92.9 kilojoules of energy. Now, a watt is a joule per second, so an idling CPU consuming 10 watts of energy would take 9290 seconds (or close to 2 hours and 35 minutes) to heat the apartment by one degree kelvin. Do note though that this of course assumes completely unrealistic conditions, for example that the apartment is perfectly thermally insulated against the outside world, so it is of course necessary for there to be no ventilation whatsoever. The building code here demands that the ventilation of private dwellings should change the indoor air at least once every two hours, making the job of that idling CPU a Sisyphean task.

So, in conclusion, no, my heatsink isn't inadequately fastened, and the TDP has nothing to do with this at all. I could easily transfer the heat out of the CPU quicker and thereby making it cooler by running the CPU fan faster, but why on earth would I? There's absolutely no reason to.

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Old 8th December 2017, 22:10   #1292  |  Link
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In other words, TDP is just requirement for cooling system.
Note that modern CPUs (and GPUs) could easily exceed TDP index under heavy load (AVX-512 etc.), but integrated current/power meters and forced clock drop won't let them do so.
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Old 9th December 2017, 10:38   #1293  |  Link
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And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
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Old 9th December 2017, 14:38   #1294  |  Link
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And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
lol

One weird trick, discovered by a Doom9 forums poster, lets you violate the laws of thermodynamics. Physicists HATE him!

f'in tdp's, how do they work???
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Old 9th December 2017, 15:36   #1295  |  Link
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lol
One weird trick, discovered by a Doom9 forums poster, lets you violate the laws of thermodynamics. Physicists HATE him!
f'in tdp's, how do they work???
Yeah, I thought as much. No answer.

As I said, TDP has a very obvious correlation to actual heat output. TDP isn't a measure of it, but it must be closely related. Accumulated TDP can be a good guide to how hot your computer will be, specifically monitoring an increase in ambient temperature in the room.

If I can lower room temps by a few degrees, simply by NOT buying an expensive/fancy graphics card, I'm better for it. If watching the TDPs help me make smarter/cooler purchases, then that's what I'll do. So far, that's worked perfectly. Not everybody live in Canada or wherever, where years-round temps are measured in snowfall inches. We must pay close attention to how a computer heats the dwelling.

This is a thread about KNLmeansCL, not TDP.
I've stripped KNL down to base settings, am getting 10fps now, and have moved on. I suggest you do the same.
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:44   #1296  |  Link
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I'm amused how the "experts" of this Doom9 thread just won't let this go. It's a thread about KNLmeansCL. I've stripped it down to base settings, am getting 10fps now, and have moved. I suggest you do the same.
No dude, you don't get to pretend to be the bigger man here and move on while rolling your eyes at these silly "experts" with their "science". You went spouting off nonsense in an authoritative tone and now you're trying to weasel out of being dumb on the internet. I won't stand for it.

I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm not trying to sell you a GPU, I'm not trying to convince you to use KNLMeans, I'm not even trying to dispute your apartment temperature numbers. I only want you to understand why nothing you're saying makes any sense. I will not accept you claiming that you'd prefer to believe in literal magic because you don't understand basic physics. I also really doubt you've made the ambient temperature experiment under controlled conditions, so I really don't think you're getting much mileage out of "thinking for yourself".

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As I said, TDP has a very obvious correlation to actual heat output. TDP isn't a measure of it, but it must be closely related. Accumulated TDP can be a good guide to how hot your computer will be, specifically monitoring an increase in ambient temperature in the room.
See, you're so close and yet you are a galaxy away. The TDP number is a quite good measure of the actual heat output! AT MAX LOAD, that is. Back in the bad old days with Pentium 4's and such things, it actually kinda did tell you something about idle power consumption (and therefore heat output - as I have previously shown, they are effectively the same) as well, because processors in those days were really bad at clocking down and if you were lucky they could cut their power consumption in half while idling, maybe. Today this is no longer the case and everything clocks down to use like 10-15 watts at idle. A high TDP processor has the potential to put out more heat, but at idle there's no difference - see my screenshots above that are showing the same power consumption (and therefore heat output) of two different chips where one has more than twice the TDP of the other.

You can plug in a watt meter into the wall socket and then plug the computer into that if you're actually curious about this. They're like 25 bucks on Amazon. You will then notice that your power consumption at idle is a lot more than just the CPU's idling power consumption (because there's other stuff using power in the computer as well, and the PSU is only about 80-90% efficient at converting wall socket AC to low voltage DC), but also that if you actually put your computer under load, power consumption will immediately increase significantly, and there's the difference between idle power and TDP. In practice you can see the computer as an electrical space heater; effectively all of the electrical energy it is using gets turned into thermal energy.

I think you're suffering from the misconception that the temperature of the components is interesting for some reason. It's not. It is true that a higher temperature difference between a hot thing and the ambient air increases the rate at which energy is transferred from one to the other, but in this case we're talking about a steady state situation: we're inputting a constant amount of energy per second into the chip, and it's transferring exactly that much energy into the surrounding air per second. If it was transferring less energy out than it was receiving, it would become hotter, because it would be storing more energy.

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- If you can explain this, great! I'm all ears.
- If not, STFU.
Of course I can't explain the conditions in your apartment with your computer without any details about it. For all I know you might have turned off the CPU power saving features in the BIOS and are always running at full power consumption.

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Old 9th December 2017, 23:53   #1297  |  Link
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And yet, you can't explain why a computer left on 24/7/365, using components with high TDP, will raise room ambient temperature by at least 5 degrees. Whereas components with low TDP will not do so, a mild 1 degree bump at most.

Please, Dr. Physics, explain that one.
Maybe because the walls of the room cool it down faster than the PC can heat it up?
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:54   #1298  |  Link
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now you're trying to weasel out of being dumb on the internet.
Sigh. No. I came to the KNLmeansCL threads to talk about the filter, not this BS. I've mostly resolved that encoding speed issue. You're the one that keeps harping on TDP, and my statement of not wanting a graphics card because it add 5 degrees of heat to the room.

Quote:
Back in the bad old days with Pentium 4's and such things
TDP is somewhat gamed like megapixels in cameras, and has been for years. CPUs can get hotter than the TDP, and TDP doesn't reflect maximum heat output. But it is a gauge of heat nonetheless. And that heat goes somewhere (ie, the room with the computer). A hotter TDP item rarely outputs less heat than lower TDP item, even at idle.

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your apartment
Not where I live. You're assuming too much.

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you might have turned off the CPU power saving features in the BIOS and are always running at full power consumption.
More assumptions.

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Maybe because the walls of the room cool it down faster than the PC can heat it up?
Huh?
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Old 9th December 2017, 23:58   #1299  |  Link
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Please, please, concentrate more on technical than personal topics.

Some of our moderators here are quite strict when it comes to violating the Netiquette.
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Old Yesterday, 00:15   #1300  |  Link
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Please, please, concentrate more on technical than personal topics.
Gladly!

One thing I noticed when trying to cut down the KNL settings (for speed) was that adjusting A=2 to A=1 seems to massively cut down on it's effectiveness, yet encoding speed remained almost unchanged. I didn't see why that would happen.

Also, the s=1 syntax suggestion from default s=2 did nothing.

I'm partially assuming it's related to the 4x calls from the script, or the horrible video where it was used.
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Last edited by lordsmurf; Yesterday at 01:15.
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