Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th October 2017, 23:51   #46881  |  Link
xabregas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleMan View Post
So here's something weird I just can't explain.

I'm trying to play an HDR HEVC 4k file. My TV is 2160p so there is no image upscaling here, only chroma.

Now, if I set chroma upsampling to something simple like Lanczos3 - it plays fine and the rendering time is ~6ms. However, if I change chroma upsampling to NNEDI 32 neurons or NGU AA High/Medium, I get a rendering time of ~20-30ms and dropping frames every few seconds. Every time it I see frames dropped, I can also see that the present queue empties to 0 and quickly refills.

I don't understand why it's dropping frames, 20-30ms should be fine for 24p content.

Things that don't make a difference: FSE/Windowed, CPU queue size, Delay-or-not until queue is full.

My setup: Win10, GTX 1050, 385.28, latest madVR, D3D11 decoding with LAV

Thanks for any help in advance!
Hmmm Probably test it with software decoding on lav. But i think the problem is obvious. Your gpu is almost like mine GTX 750 ti (probably yours is a bit worst because no Ti). My 750 Ti can handle NGU antialiasing quality with ~25ms and no drops but its with 1080p on 1080p screen without hardware acceleration.

4k speaking i think its too much for a gtx 1050 to handle. You probably can get away with nnedi 16 neurons and no hardware acceleration without drops. Probably. And why do u use d3d11 on lav?? Ive heard its not stable yet. Test it with software decoding if u can or maybe CUDA???
xabregas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2017, 23:54   #46882  |  Link
e-t172
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What I said is a scientific fact. I explicitly talked about displays with "perfect fillrate", though. In real life no display has a perfect fillrate, so it's not as clear cut in real life as it is in theory. Still, if a 1080p display and a 4K display have identical properties (other than resolution), there's no way the 1080p will be able to compete with the 4K display, if you use madVR quality upscaling.
...and to put more weight behind that statement, this is consistent with what is said in Poynton's book for example, where he explains the concept of point spread function (PSF). The reason why LCD screens behave poorly in that regard is that they have a box PSF (in layman's terms, "square pixels"). In contrast, good ol'CRTs are better at this, because they have a gaussian PSF.
e-t172 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 03:57   #46883  |  Link
PurpleMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
Hmmm Probably test it with software decoding on lav. But i think the problem is obvious. Your gpu is almost like mine GTX 750 ti (probably yours is a bit worst because no Ti). My 750 Ti can handle NGU antialiasing quality with ~25ms and no drops but its with 1080p on 1080p screen without hardware acceleration.

4k speaking i think its too much for a gtx 1050 to handle. You probably can get away with nnedi 16 neurons and no hardware acceleration without drops. Probably. And why do u use d3d11 on lav?? Ive heard its not stable yet. Test it with software decoding if u can or maybe CUDA???
Thanks, but there are a few holes in this theory that I'm trying to work out -

1. The decoder queue has plenty of frames in it, it's only the present frame that's getting empty.

2. If the GPU would be too overloaded with decoding, you'd expect the render time to be way more than 20-30ms. I mean, If it's so swamped with decoding, I'd imagine it wouldn't be able keep up with madVR's processing, which it seems to.

maybe @madshi has some insight here.

Thanks!
PurpleMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 05:02   #46884  |  Link
Reclunk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewildsun View Post

NVIDIA GPU (HDMI) -> AV Receiver -> Power Amplifier -> Speakers.

I have read that others have resolved coil whine getting to the speakers by using GPU HDMI instead of onboard audio, but my audio issue happens over HDMI.
Disable the audio driver from your motherboard. Ie: Realtek ; then it defaults to your GPU/Reciever. Cured a bunch of my headaches, all through HDMI.

Last edited by Reclunk; 27th October 2017 at 05:10.
Reclunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 06:47   #46885  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleMan View Post
So here's something weird I just can't explain.

I'm trying to play an HDR HEVC 4k file. My TV is 2160p so there is no image upscaling here, only chroma.

Now, if I set chroma upsampling to something simple like Lanczos3 - it plays fine and the rendering time is ~6ms. However, if I change chroma upsampling to NNEDI 32 neurons or NGU AA High/Medium, I get a rendering time of ~20-30ms and dropping frames every few seconds. Every time it I see frames dropped, I can also see that the present queue empties to 0 and quickly refills.

I don't understand why it's dropping frames, 20-30ms should be fine for 24p content.

Things that don't make a difference: FSE/Windowed, CPU queue size, Delay-or-not until queue is full.

My setup: Win10, GTX 1050, 385.28, latest madVR, D3D11 decoding with LAV

Thanks for any help in advance!

can you make a screen of the OSD?
i feel like an broken record but a 2 GB can easily run out of Vram when used for UHD you can check that too using GPU-Z (1850-1950 usually means you are out of Vram but not always.)
Quote:
Thanks, but there are a few holes in this theory that I'm trying to work out -

1. The decoder queue has plenty of frames in it, it's only the present frame that's getting empty.

2. If the GPU would be too overloaded with decoding, you'd expect the render time to be way more than 20-30ms. I mean, If it's so swamped with decoding, I'd imagine it wouldn't be able keep up with madVR's processing, which it seems to.
hardware decoding on a 1050 ti is literally "free" it is done on an specialized chip not on the GPU it self. the performances "loss" can be usually ignored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
Hmmm Probably test it with software decoding on lav. But i think the problem is obvious. Your gpu is almost like mine GTX 750 ti (probably yours is a bit worst because no Ti). My 750 Ti can handle NGU antialiasing quality with ~25ms and no drops but its with 1080p on 1080p screen without hardware acceleration.

4k speaking i think its too much for a gtx 1050 to handle. You probably can get away with nnedi 16 neurons and no hardware acceleration without drops. Probably. And why do u use d3d11 on lav?? Ive heard its not stable yet. Test it with software decoding if u can or maybe CUDA???
a 1050 is a notable faster card than a 750 ti.
and as a reminder CUVID has problems...
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 10:36   #46886  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
LAV relies on the new subtitle interface to work when you use D3D11 in native mode, as it doesn't have any other way to render menus otherwise. The other decode modes have a fallback, but that won't work with D3D11. There is nothing really to be done about that.

Stop anything else from stealing the subtitle interface away, or wait until madshi implements support for multiple providers. Or just disable hardware decoding for DVDs, it has its own DVD checkbox for a reason, and SD MPEG2 is hardly a challenge to decode.
Thanks for this explanation, I think we understand the situation far better now that both you and Madshi have explained clearly what was happening at each level.

I'll follow your suggestion to disable hardware decoding for DVD, that makes complete sense until Madshi implements support for multiple providers (not necessary for me, as you say with a 1080Ti I can easily decode SD MPEG2 with software).

As far as I'm concerned, problem solved as I can have D3D11 acceleration on all the time with an auto exception for DVDs.

Thanks again!
__________________
Win10 Pro x64 b1809 MCE
i7 3770K@4.0Ghz 16Gb@2.18Ghz EVGA GTX 1080 Ti SC2 11Gb@2GHz 398.11 RGB Full 8bits
MPC-BE/LAV/MadVR/jRiver/MyMovies V5.25
Denon X8500H>HD Fury Maestro>JVC RS2000
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 10:37   #46887  |  Link
austinminton
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewildsun View Post
However, I'm still stuck trying to figure out a new problem, which is an audio crackle which gets louder the higher the GPU usage is.
I had the same problem and I fixed it by changing my avr.

Such problems are quite specific to the setup and I had to go through a lot of trial and error before it got fixed.
austinminton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 12:10   #46888  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
hardware decoding on a 1050 ti is literally "free" it is done on an specialized chip not on the GPU it self.
In a specialized part of the GPU itself.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 15:40   #46889  |  Link
el Filou
Registered User
 
el Filou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 527
For people who have problems with FSE in Windows 1709, did you check if the "disable fullscreen optmiizations" compatibility option wasn't re-enabled for your media player(s) by the update?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3rd3vil View Post
So all in all HDR10 passthrough doesnt work properly as well? Then Dolby Vision will never work We need DV
Mate, of your 32 posts on this forum, most of them are you repeatedly asking for ETAs for Dolby Vision support in various software. Do you own Dolby shares or something? Are you really in such a hurry? Support won't come sooner the more you bother devs about it, you know.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 10 1809, MediaPortal 1, LAV Filters, ReClock, madVR. DVB-C TV, Panasonic GT60, 6.0 speakers Denon 2310, Core 2 Duo E7400, GeForce 1050 Ti
el Filou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2017, 21:26   #46890  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,463
especially when everyone hates dolby because they basically sell a black box nobody can look into, not gunna happen.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 10:38   #46891  |  Link
d3rd3vil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
Mate, of your 32 posts on this forum, most of them are you repeatedly asking for ETAs for Dolby Vision support in various software. Do you own Dolby shares or something? Are you really in such a hurry? Support won't come sooner the more you bother devs about it, you know.
Thats EXACTLY the opposite of what I am thinking. You gotta ask and hurry people in every forum around the world so sth. MIGHT happen in the next few months otherwise NOTHING will happen. Most dont know about DV, cant use it or dont need it.
d3rd3vil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 10:46   #46892  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 9,788
Being spammed by annoying users is not exactly a great motivational help...
You have requested the feature, the developers have read it, repeating it won't get you anything.

If you care so much about DV support in free tools, you should pester Dolby about releasing specifications. But of course they'll never do that, but you should try anyway!
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 28th October 2017 at 10:50.
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 10:51   #46893  |  Link
d3rd3vil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 79
What are you thinking of me ofc I also wrote to dolby laboratories ^^ No answer though ofc.
d3rd3vil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 10:54   #46894  |  Link
mparade
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 555
got stuck

Hello,

I have a 4K TV and set madVR profiles correctly, but,
when playing an mkv file, e.g. with a resolution of 1920x804p, I am getting incorrect source handling.
madVR doesn't do any doubling, however my profiles have been set so. Additionally, after playing the first video file using madVR the player's GUI was totally mixed up (after the player finished playing the video/stopped the player manually), and when this had happened, it was needed each time to close and reopen it.
I played a few hours with it and realized at the end that this issue only occurs when madVR is chosen as the renderer. The same issue has happened to me in JRiver and MPC-HC as well.
So, now nothing special I would like to achieve, only wouuld like to play back my mkvs correctly using my own madVR profiles.

Link to the screenshot about the problem:

http://s1.toldacuccot.hu/letoltes?si...creenshot3.png

Any help would be appreciated.

Last edited by mparade; 28th October 2017 at 11:45.
mparade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 11:45   #46895  |  Link
ashlar42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 414
I don't even own a 4K screen, let alone an HDR Dolby Vision capable one. I'm not here to condone d3rd3vil behaviour or anything but... the "black box, will never happen" argument doesn't hold. In the past we've had several of these black boxes and with time they've been made usable. Wasn't DTS encoding impossible with free tools for the longest time, for instance, do I remember wrong?
ashlar42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 13:18   #46896  |  Link
d3rd3vil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 79
Its the best there is for an Oled so we want it Even with slight improvements.
d3rd3vil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 13:32   #46897  |  Link
Razoola
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 454
Personally I have been very underwelmed with dolby vision. I have watched various DV shows via netflix on my E6 OLED and at some point I though I had issues with by panel when it turned out dolby vision was the cause.

The main issue I have seen with content using it is line bleed in the source material. Those of you who owned Plasma in the past will know what line bleed is I suspect. Well dolby vision is so great that their cameras or encoding method ends up putting that effect into the source material for you. Its really dire in some of the daredevil series I watched in the past.

I steer well clear of Dolby Vision these days and I would be the first to sign a petition for TV makers to drop DV and bring back 3D.

[EDIT], here is a video clip of a prime example of DV crappyness I recorded a few months back. Its not even a great quality video but you can see the linebleed over the black bricks and his chest as he gets out of bed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_ALuDz9Uo4

Last edited by Razoola; 28th October 2017 at 13:45.
Razoola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 13:47   #46898  |  Link
d3rd3vil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 79
What to look for in that vid? I have seen sooo many videos about Oled faults....you have to experience it yourself. Vids usually dont help.

And Daredevil is a grainy material that certainly doesnt need DV or DV makes it even worse that could be possible yes.
d3rd3vil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 14:02   #46899  |  Link
Razoola
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by d3rd3vil View Post
What to look for in that vid? I have seen sooo many videos about Oled faults....you have to experience it yourself. Vids usually dont help.

And Daredevil is a grainy material that certainly doesnt need DV or DV makes it even worse that could be possible yes.
In this case (the video above) its not an OLED fault, its a Dolby Vision issue.

The issue the video is showing is line bleed. Look at the horizontal slat in the window on the right of picture. Then look at the black bricks at the same height to the left of it. You can see they are darker than the other bricks over the entire wall (like dark hortz line painted on them). Then as he moves up out of bed that line bleed causes he chest to have a yellow smudgy line over it.

Please don't even think about saying its a lighting shadow in the room when filming took place.

Last edited by Razoola; 28th October 2017 at 14:06.
Razoola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2017, 14:13   #46900  |  Link
d3rd3vil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 79
Well ok then its shit in Daredevil ok. Still I am not convinced DV is shit ^^
d3rd3vil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.